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OfflineExtravagantDream
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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: Anno]
    #1314915 - 02/17/03 06:26 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

thats what I think.. but if in theory they all came from one wild print.. can they get any more diverse?


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Offlineblackout
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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1315893 - 02/18/03 06:11 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Joshua- thanks for the great reply. you say
"What would be beneficial to maintain genetic diversity in your shroom population is to periodically mix in wild prints from the same strain."
how would you ensure your wild prints are the same "strain", does it mean picked from the same field? as there are a few Thailand strains available but they are considered totally different strains (or are they?).

Teonan went on to say
"Strain EQ from vendor 1, EQ from vendor 2, EQ from vendor 3 a print each all mixed together in a syringe is more diverse then just mixing 3 prints of Vendor1 EQ into a syringe."
i presumed vendor A got the original print, grew it out and the other vendors bought prints from vendor A and grew them and sell them. this then contradicts this statement

"if i grow 100 PF mushrooms and take prints is there any advantage to mixing up all 100 prints and starting multispores with that.
No. It would be like mixing 100 of your sperm samples together v. one of your sperm samples. The sample came from the same source therefor, either sample contains the same genetic variability."

or should i have suggested growing 100PF mushrooms from the same syringe but on 3 different substrates, all multispore, and then mixing these to get more diverse genetics. if so are there any vendors who actively do this? would it have prevented the degeneration that the PF race suffered a while back after which it was said that PF went back to spores from years back to start decent spores again.


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: blackout]
    #1316017 - 02/18/03 07:08 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

how would you ensure your wild prints are the same "strain", does it mean picked from the same field? as there are a few Thailand strains available but they are considered totally different strains (or are they?).

I was implying to pick the wild prints from the same area. This will secure a higher liklihood that the spores will mate. I don't want to damage any pre-existing love for the Thai strains. I am not familiar with the geography of Thailand. I would assume the strains are very similar unless the regions they were picked at are separated by geographic features that prevent the mixing of spores.

presumed vendor A got the original print, grew it out and the other vendors bought prints from vendor A and grew them and sell them. this then contradicts this statement

Yes, you are right. It is assumed the original prints that the vendors are growing from were from different wild specimens. I think it is more likely that a large percentage of the strains are from one common wild specimen. I think MJ takes several prints of specimens when he takes his trips. I would imagine there is a higher likelihood that the strains he brings back and offers to vendors are from seperate wild prints.

or should i have suggested growing 100PF mushrooms from the same syringe but on 3 different substrates, all multispore, and then mixing these to get more diverse genetics. if so are there any vendors who actively do this?

No, the variation generated by your method would be next to nothing in comparison to the parental strain. I imagine most vendors do cycle the substrate they choose to grow on...at least if they are true mycologists they would. I bet PF experienced the degradation of their strain due to very many generations being grown and on the same substrate. He could have extended the generations before mutations occured only slightly by varying his substrate. I am more likely to think that he grew the spores out so many times that he lost his variability.

____________________________________________

All of this thinking has renewed my interest in crossing some strains. Keep your eyes open.

Joshua


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Anonymous

Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: Anno]
    #1316880 - 02/18/03 02:32 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I think ONLY may be a bad word to use.

Mixing ten prints from the same clone is more diverse then using one print from that clone.

Mixing ten prints, each from a different clone(Dikaryon) is MORE diverse then mixing ten from the same clone.

Mixing ten prints from ten different Dikaryons, from ten different cultivators all using different substrates is even more diverse.

Cubensis is heterothallic so it always OUTCROSSES.

For there to be a GT it must only mate with other GT spores. TheDiversity of GT is maintained by mixing spores from as many different GT prints as you can find. Some from each vendor, some from each cultivator, some from different clones from each cultivator. The more spores you can mix from one clone, several clones, or 100's of different Dikaryons(clones).



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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: ]
    #1317841 - 02/18/03 10:18 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

This of course bring upon the issue of how many prints are cruising around that are misslabeled.
So If I mix GT prints from several sources, I might as well end up growing a GTized Ecuador.....


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OfflineExtravagantDream
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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: Anno]
    #1317881 - 02/18/03 10:56 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Is that really a totally bad thing? yes, if you are trying to maintane purity and looking for a true GT, or what not. But we all evolve, I'm willing to bet that GT and alot of other strains are just a mixture from some others.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1317883 - 02/18/03 10:59 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Probably. At least after some time being in circulation.

Is it a bad thing for the cultivator? No, don?t think so.


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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: Anno]
    #1318103 - 02/19/03 03:02 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

i often wondered if 2 strains were actually the same. some vendors get "wild" prints sent to them. whos to say they were collected in the wild and not just a print from a commercial syringe? only trust i suppose.
is there any way of confirming that 2 mushrooms are different strains


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: blackout]
    #1318166 - 02/19/03 04:14 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

>is there any way of confirming that 2 mushrooms are different strains

Of the same species?
Hardly. It?s hard already holding the different species apart.


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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: ]
    #1318593 - 02/19/03 07:47 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"For there to be a GT it must only mate with other GT spores."

For there to be an Eskimo it must mate w/ other Eskimos is not true. The heterothalic nature of GT does not require that GT cross w/ GT, only that it mates w/ a P. cubensis.

Is this right?

Also when you speak of diversity it is important to know to what extent you have diversity.

A couple allele differences in cheetahs may be considered diverse whereas a couple allele differences in humans is not. It is also important to know from where the parent dikaryon originated from. Not all dikaryon matings are of equal diversity.

I have P1A and P1B as parental dikaryons originating from P0. I fruit P1A and obtain F1A and F1B. I fruit F1A and obtain F2A and F2B. The mating of spores from P1A and P1B is more diverse than the mating of F2A and F2B.

Both matings are dikaryon matings but are not equal in their genetic diversity.

Is this right?

Joshua


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: Joshua]
    #1318758 - 02/19/03 08:33 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Joshua is speaking in codes.....

If you don?t know what this is about, visit this link:

http://www.fungifun.org/sex.htm


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Anonymous

Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: Joshua]
    #1320532 - 02/19/03 08:58 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

GT is an inbreed LINE.  To maintain it you must continue to inbreed it.  To prevent it from LOSSING ALL of it's variability you want to be able to do self-crosses with as many GT sources as possible.  YES , you have to be able to recognize GT from EQ to be able to Maintain GT.

I never stated that GT CAN ONLY MATE WITH GT, just that it must to maintain being a GT.  SELF CROSS v.s OUT CROSS. 

Of course you have to know what GT is and What EQ is.  When breeding you should know Pedigree.  This is very difficult in the OMC.  Lots of vendors, lots of trades!!!

I have two different GT's.  :smirk:






 


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: ]
    #1320580 - 02/19/03 09:40 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Very good then!

I know who to talk to when I want to set my understanding of genetics right.

Joshua


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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: Joshua]
    #1320585 - 02/19/03 09:42 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

BTW - most of the various 'strains' of cubensis from Thailand are infact picked at various locations within around 10kms of one another. Diversity?


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: Joshua]
    #2209218 - 12/30/03 05:24 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Bump....anyone know of some cool mushroom genetics articles I could read?

Joshua


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InvisibleAlienPrimate
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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: Joshua]
    #2213086 - 01/01/04 12:41 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

jssmthrfcknchrst:

I have a comment from your quote below...

+++++
"A semen sample will never contain more genetic variety then your DNA because you cannot produce additional genes. This is why inbreeding leads to deformed children, the lack of genetic variation.
I hope that was clear."
+++++

It sounds like you are saying deformity is equal to a lack of genetic variation, but this not the case. Lack of genetic variation in and of itself will not necessarily lead to deformity. It can lead to it if harmful alleles are kept in the breeding line, but in the absence of harmful alleles the main problem with inbreeding is that a lack of genetic diversity limits the line's ability to adapt. It has a limited "tool kit" of alleles for evolution to play with, so to speak. So in the overall line, then, it might have no resistance to certain diseases, pests, etc.

On another note, there is something that I wonder about when we talk about mixing spores from various spore prints. Say someone does mix one spore print with another, and then takes a print from a resulting fruit. There really isn't any way to know that the fruit body is actually a result of spores from the separate prints mating. It could be the result of matings solely in one print or the other. Since making sure that certain spores mate with certain spores is out of the realm of most home cultivators I'm not sure what a viable option would be for most people.


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: AlienPrimate]
    #2215814 - 01/02/04 11:08 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Both deformities and the lack of disease resistance are one of the same type when spoken of in this manner. Deformities are an observable phenotype and the lack of disease resistance is a non-phenotypable genotype, both of which can be caused by inbreeding.

This is not to say all deformities or all lack of disease resistance is due to inbreeding, but both can be caused by inbreeding.

Read this link: http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/inbreeding.htm for more info.

On the second portion of your post...you are absolutely correct. The only way to be sure of a strain cross would be genetic mapping of the parent strains and of the possible hybrid offspring. One could however determine a cross, with high certainty, by observing strong phenotype characteristics under strict growth parameters. One could select two strains, one that has a blue veil and one that has a green nipple. If you crossed these strains and produced a single specimen with both characteristics, you could be pretty certain the progeny is a hybrid of the two parental strains.

Of course the above example is exaggerated to show the idea.

Joshua


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InvisibleAlienPrimate
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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: Joshua]
    #2218784 - 01/04/04 06:31 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Hi Joshua,

My comment about inbreeding was really just to highlight a fine point. When you say inbreeding "causes" deformity I assume you mean because genes that would cause it are allowed to become more prominent in an inbred line (by chance), rather than inbreeding in and of itself somehow triggering deformity. Do I understand you correctly? If not, then I am not sure what you mean by the word "causes." Unless mushroom genetics have a special quality I'm not aware of, inbreeding will only lead to deformity or what have you if harmful alleles are kept in the line through the practice. If the harmful alleles are not there to begin with, then deformity (or whatever) won't be an issue, although other problems may arise due to a lack of genetic diversity?

To I understand you correctly?

AP


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: AlienPrimate]
    #2220443 - 01/05/04 01:57 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I am talking mammals here in response to the quote you made,
"+++++
"A semen sample will never contain more genetic variety then your DNA because you cannot produce additional genes. This is why inbreeding leads to deformed children, the lack of genetic variation.
I hope that was clear."
+++++"

Fungi, I am sure, are a bit different. That is why I asked anyone if they knew of any fungi genetic articles, so I could read up and understand fungi genetics better.

Joshua


--------------------
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"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


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Anonymous

Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: AlienPrimate]
    #2240073 - 01/13/04 08:56 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

According to the available literature I could find on mushroom breeding. Most deformities(lethal alleles) are worked out by the second generation of a hybrid.

IE. Breeding GT with EQ. The spores that originate from the hybrid dikaryon will contain many BAD combinations and result in a very low success rate for those spores mating to become dikaryons. The spores that su8ccessfully mate will produce fertile dikaryons that produce spores that will be FAR more viable then that original hybrid generations spores. Each future generation will get better, until you arrive back at the 1/4 succesful mating population.

When you cross GT with EQ, and we assume they do not share any immediate ancestor, the resulting spores would mate at 100%, but there succes rate will be less then the usual 25% of a SELF cross due to lethal combinations. The number will increase in the next generations until it reaches the 25% mark. Then you have a NEW strain.

Inbreeding is required to maintain a STRAIN.

Strains are themselves, inbreed populations, wild or domesticated. Cubensis will not SELF, so even if the two spores that mate came from the same mushroom, only disimilar haploids can mate to form a dikaryon. The breeding strategy prevents any SEVERE inbreeding problems. It maintains enough diversity for the STRAIN to remain viable by the number of spores produced, and the number of dikaryons resulting from those spores mating.

If the monokaryons that mate are from the same strain, they will mate succesfully 25% of the time. If the monokaryons are from different strains, that do not share a common ancestor, they will mate at 100%, but less then 25% will be succesful mates!!!

If EQ and GT are related, share a common ancestor, then there monokaryons will mate 75% of the time.

Testing 10 monokaryons of each strain against 10 monokaryons of each other Strain in circulation will determine how related ALL the STRAINs are. It will determine if they share a single parent, both parents, or neither parent.


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