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 EonTan
bird
Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 468
Loc: very south
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 Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how...  [Re: Workman]
#5587349 - 05/03/06 07:23 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Exactly. Hybrid Strain does not CHEAPEN the Hybrid species. You can have both.
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texas34
Lurker
Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 23
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: Workman]
#5589419 - 05/04/06 09:50 AM (17 years, 4 months ago) |
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To add to workman's comment, all humans are hybrids unless their family has massive amounts of inbreeding. Cross species hybrids are very rare and often sterile but not always.
To add some complexity to the mating discussion, there can also be partial matings in which one mating type locus is heterozygous and the other is homozygous, A3B1 x A4B1. These incomplete matings usually form dikaryotic hyphae that die soon afterwards. You would never recover these matings for long before they die, so they are basically the equivalent of no mating at all.
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fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: texas34]
#5593135 - 05/05/06 07:56 AM (17 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm not agreeing with your explanation of mating types... There are only four mating types, so how are you getting A3B1 and A4B1? I'm not familiar with mating type naming conventions, but it seems to me that the numbers are creating confusion. You have two mating type loci, with two possible genotypes at each.
Maybe someone can clear up the confusion. Obviously I can't change the convention but I would suggest using Aa and Bb, giving you four possible combinations. AB, ab, Ab, and aB.
To add to the hybrid discussion... I think you guys need a little perspective on genetic diversity. A dog and cat cross is just silly. RR isn't suggesting anything like that as a criteria for calling something a hybrid. What he suggested was along the lines of a dog and a wolf, which are two different species (Canis lupus and Canis familiaris), but the same genus (Canis). There are dog x wolf hybrids. I think this is a very good example of a hybrid and what RR means by hybrid. A dog and a cat wouldn't be a hybrid, but rather a chimera.
On the other hand we have texas34 suggesting that you have to be completely inbred to not be considered a hybrid. All humans are the same genus and species. There is nowhere near the diversity between human races as between dogs and wolves.
-FF
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It drinks the alcohol and abstains from the weed or else it gets the hose again. -Chemy
The difference between the substances doesn't matter. This is a war on consciousness, on our right to the very essence of what we are. With no control over that, we have no need to speak of freedom or a free society. -fireseed
"If we are going to have a war on marijuana, the least we can do is pull the sick and the dying off the battlefield." -Neal Levine (MPP)
I find the whole "my drug should be legal but yours should be illegal" mindset disgusting and hypocritical. It's what George Bush and company do when they drink a cocktail and debate the best way to imprison marijuana users. -Diploid
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texas34
Lurker
Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 23
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: fastfred]
#5593687 - 05/05/06 11:19 AM (17 years, 4 months ago) |
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OK, let me take a step back. I just used random numbers in my example to try and make my point. Most basidios have what used to be called a tetrapolar mating system. Because the term tetrapolar made people think only four alleles were involved, mycologists prefer the newer term of bifactorial now. In the bifactorial mating system, there are two loci (genes) with multiple alleles (at each loci) involved in determining mating type. What this means is that there are more than two possibilities for each gene. This is the most common pattern; some basidios have variations on this like two genes, one with multiple alleles and the other with 2 alleles. So for most mushrooms there are greatly more than 4 mating types. Additionally, the combination of the alleles for the two loci is the mating type not the alleles by themselves. Incomplete matings do occur; they just don't survive.
On to hybrids, your dog-wolf example is on the right track. The dog genome sequence was published by Lindblad-Toh et al. in the December 2005 issue of Nature (if you want to take a look I can pm you with the paper). They also examine the phylogenetic relationship of many canids to domesticated dogs in this paper. From this examination, dogs were domesticated from Grey wolves and have not diverged very much yet. Your likely to find most gene alleles from dogs in wolves as well, but the reverse is not necessarily true. This is because when dogs were domesticated only portions of wolves' diversity was fixed in dogs. Dogs and Grey wolves have only .04% sequence divergence in their exons and .21% divergence in their introns. Using the biological species concept (can the two populations interbreed), dog and Grey wolf should probably be considered separate sub-species rather than separate species. However, current convention has them as different species. Dogs can also hybridize to coyote, golden jackal, and Ethiopian wolves as well. These species are more distant from dogs than Grey wolves. What we are seeing is the creation of different species that has not fully taken place yet. We could interbreed all these species together make one species again given enough time, effort, and money although I see no reason to do so. In time these species will fully diverge and will no longer be able to interbreed if left alone (well dogs would not be around at all if we knew how to leave things alone).
An example of this phenomenon at a latter stage is the divergence of horse and donkey. In this case, interbreeding has broken down to the point that hybrids are sterile. I can't remember the specifics, but I think only female horses and male donkeys can mate successfully to create mules, which are all sterile females. I imagine that male hybrids either die soon after fertilization, or fertilization never takes place. So donkeys and horses are permanently separate now (unless we mess with them genetically).
With humans, there is just as much diversity within a "race" as between them. Race is a completely artificial term that is associated with very, very few genes that happen to affect humans' visible phenotype. I don't have any numbers to throw out, but I think that on average you will find more diversity between dogs and wolves than between humans but not by much.
Offspring from a dog X cat cross would be hybrids. A dog/cat chimera would be composed of both cat and dog cells separately. From a successful mating, you only get one cell type that is a hybrid between dog and cat. A good example of chimeras is the technique of grafting separate species of plants together. Both (or all if more than two) of the plants still grow and interact, but their cells are completely different and separate.
T34
Edited by texas34 (05/05/06 06:28 PM)
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EonTan
bird
Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 468
Loc: very south
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: fastfred]
#5617180 - 05/11/06 01:12 PM (17 years, 4 months ago) |
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There are different STRAINS out there and there mating type factors are different from each other. The numbers just designate which factors they are.
Gt might be A1A2B1B2.
Pr might be A3A4B3B4.
These are just generic designations. Just realize that all the factors have to be different to have a succesful mating of monokaryons. A1B1 mates with A2B2 becaszue all the factors are different. A1B1 would also mate with another strains A3B3,A4B4, etc.... Becasue all the factors are different.
Inbreeding occurs at 25%. A1A2B1B2 with A1A2B1B2
Cross breeding with a common factor 75%. A1A2B3B4 with A1A2B1B2
Cross breeding with disimilar factors 100%. A1A2B1B2 with A3A4B3B4
If they are all A1A2B1B2 they are all the same strain.
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fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: EonTan]
#5631142 - 05/15/06 01:58 AM (17 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thanks for the post T34. Good catch with respect to my chimera comment. I should have remembered that.
It might not add much to the discussion, but I pulled out my genetics text and looked up the specifics of mules. A mule is a cross between a female horse and a male donkey. A cross between a male horse and a female donkey produces a hinny. A hinny has smaller ears and a bushy tail like a horse. Both mules and hinnies are sterile. A horse has 64 chromosomes and a donkey has 62. A mule has 63. It's chromosomes are not homologous so they don't pair properly during meiosis, making the mule's gametes abnormal and sterile.
Mules aren't all female. Male mules are called Johns, females are called Mollies. Another interesting fact is that not all mules are sterile, or maybe it would be more correct to say that mules are not always sterile. A female mule mating with a male donkey can sometimes produce offspring. Apparently this happens when the mule, by chance, provides only it's horse chromosomes in the egg. So when a female mule mates with a donkey it produces mule, but when it mates with a horse it produces a horse. Of course, this is a very rare event, but it happens. The first case documented with genetic testing was a mule named Krause. They named the offspring "Blue Moon". Since random segregation did not take place Krause and Blue Moon were not only mother and son, but also brother and sister!
Or course, most of you will say "Who cares?", I just remembered the story and bothered to look it up. I thought it was interesting enough to post. It just goes to show that strange things can and do happen.
-FF
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It drinks the alcohol and abstains from the weed or else it gets the hose again. -Chemy
The difference between the substances doesn't matter. This is a war on consciousness, on our right to the very essence of what we are. With no control over that, we have no need to speak of freedom or a free society. -fireseed
"If we are going to have a war on marijuana, the least we can do is pull the sick and the dying off the battlefield." -Neal Levine (MPP)
I find the whole "my drug should be legal but yours should be illegal" mindset disgusting and hypocritical. It's what George Bush and company do when they drink a cocktail and debate the best way to imprison marijuana users. -Diploid
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 Feelers
Anti-Myth-Rhythm-Rock-Shocker
Registered: 06/18/02
Posts: 1,806
Loc: Land of Oz
Last seen: 5 years, 4 months
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: fastfred]
#5635095 - 05/15/06 09:24 PM (17 years, 4 months ago) |
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There are heaps of cool/weird animal crosses. Zonkeys, zorses, ligers, tigons, wolphins - haha they are all pretty whacked.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid
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texas34
Lurker
Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 23
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: Feelers]
#5640628 - 05/17/06 01:17 AM (17 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thanks for info on the mules FF and the link Feelers.
Almost all of these hybrids are within genera. It just goes to show that while some species are distinct others can be a bit fuzzy. With fungi, there are complex incompatibility systems that usually keep separate species' hyphae from fusing, and others that determine whether the fused cell survives. Maybe fusing protoplasts or something might work better. It would be pretty large scale since you would have test different individuals of the two species to try and find a combination that works. Then again could work on the first try if your lucky. I'm sure others know more about these types of experiments than I do.
T34
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blujay
pass it b*ch!
Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 5,120
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: BlueJay]
#11283668 - 10/20/09 11:51 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueJay said:
Most PPL think you can cross two cube strains by inocullating a jar on each side and the myc will meet and produce fruit with most genetics WRONG... the myc just meets and joins into the network. The fruits produced will be either A or B not combined charaistics.....You must go deeper....We all know that spores must combine together to make one strand of myc,some even need as many as four different spores to combine to form one myc strand.... Make your syringe with strain A spores & strain B spores. When germinate some will have both genetics already into that myc.....
Wouldn't you just repeatedly grow mushrooms then, selecting only shrooms with the most noteable split characteristics? If you took a biopsy of one of your AB shrooms and then grew a large amount of myc from that, wouldn't it all be AB>?
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   wat man rly
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 7 months, 8 days
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: BlueJay] 1
#11283811 - 10/20/09 12:20 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueJay said:
Most PPL think you can cross two cube strains by inocullating a jar on each side and the myc will meet and produce fruit with most genetics WRONG... the myc just meets and joins into the network. The fruits produced will be either A or B not combined charaistics.....
Wrong. Flat-out wrong. Dikaryotic mycelium is as capable of pairing as monokaryotic mycelium. If mycelium from two strains joins up and forms a single organism, it will have genetics from both 'parents'.
RR
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Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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Cloneufc
Master Exploder!
Registered: 11/15/07
Posts: 1,237
Loc: Las Vegas 
Last seen: 2 months, 3 days
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: RogerRabbit]
#11287649 - 10/20/09 08:58 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Thanks RR! I knew Bluejay was wrong but I didnt want to argue. Disinformation should be a crime. Its mostly due, I think to not understanding what we read.
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master_silly
Urban Criminal
Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 100
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: Middleman]
#12146957 - 03/05/10 05:30 AM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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has anyone had success crossing and making a hybrid?
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1 x3,
ms.
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jimmyjame1
Lover
Registered: 03/13/10
Posts: 2,076
Loc: 
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: master_silly]
#12226178 - 03/18/10 05:35 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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thumbs up
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 Link to My Journaland My Trade List
 
LOVE PEACE AND BEAUTIFUL MUSIC.
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Ogla
Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 11,257
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: BlueJay]
#12230132 - 03/19/10 10:18 AM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueJay said:
Make your syringe with strain A spores & strain B spores. When germinate some will have both genetics already into that myc.....
Has anyone tried mixing spores in an lc solution to attempt to cross breed? Same concept of mixing spores into one syringe right? Would the mycelium genetics mix? Would love to cross some panaleous
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organicchemist25
Oganic Chemist
Registered: 08/16/09
Posts: 23
Loc: East Coast
Last seen: 7 months, 19 days
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: BlueJay]
#12364282 - 04/09/10 08:36 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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ive tried every way possible, except the true right way. im def not set up for all of that.
i just say fuck it and split the dose with the two i want to cross.
1.5g of mestizo, 1.5g of gt, and a g of b+ is a excellent combo, as i am very sure other mixes would be quite good as well.
good luck on that and post updates in your successive journey
Edited by organicchemist25 (04/09/10 08:37 PM)
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spdrv52
TrippyShaman
Registered: 08/22/13
Posts: 16
Loc: near galveston
Last seen: 29 days, 20 hours
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: organicchemist25]
#18980116 - 10/15/13 05:49 AM (9 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm gonna revive this bitch, idk if anyone will even notice, and its prolly not even the correct way of doing this. Given the fact that really smart guy says this must be done on Petri dishes; he's right. But I just noculated 20 jars cuz im a nobee.this is my second grow. I grew mazatapec, got about 26g. dry from three flushes of brf.tek off 4 half pint jars. This time I did 10 mazatapec, 9 golden teach and one with two holes with mazatapec and two holes with golden teach. Ima keep eye on it and report if anything special happens.peace and love
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to fathom hell or soar angelic take a pinch of psychedelic
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God25
Kangaroo
Registered: 02/06/15
Posts: 24
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: strang]
#21750820 - 06/01/15 10:34 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have tried it with mixing spore prints of two varieties in a spore syringe. After spawning to bulk sub I cam out with many different patches of phenotypes in the same grow. After printing and regrowing though it seems many revert to one side or the other as apposed to keeping true to the original mushroom type that was printed. I have a background in horticulture and this is also a problem for making new plant varieties. You may cross them but they tend to prefer a set of genes from one parent or the other and revert in a few generations. Getting something noticeably different takes a lot of time, generations, and selection from the offspring. This is why actually creating different strains that continue to retain enough of a difference to be considered a separate strain are hard to create and companies don't come out with new ones every day.
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