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 BlueJay
Pan Man
Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 307
Loc: Christs' peace patrol
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
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 Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how...   1
#648961 - 05/28/02 03:26 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Most PPL think you can cross two cube strains by inocullating a jar on each side and the myc will meet and produce fruit with most genetics WRONG... the myc just meets and joins into the network. The fruits produced will be either A or B not combined charaistics.....You must go deeper....We all know that spores must combine together to make one strand of myc,some even need as many as four different spores to combine to form one myc strand.... Make your syringe with strain A spores & strain B spores. When germinate some will have both genetics already into that myc.....
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Respect all, Fear None!
The Peacemaker
Cacti are my new life.....
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 DreaMaTrix
Shaman I am
Registered: 02/11/02
Posts: 3,125
Loc: Falling into place
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 Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: BlueJay]
#649003 - 05/28/02 04:10 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Have you tried this??
I would like to cross Pink Buffalo and Penis Envy, I would call it Pink Penis or Buffalo Penis, not sure which. 
Good luck
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"We are the one's we have been waiting for" - Hopi saying
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aural
Hola Amigos!
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Posts: 511
Loc: The Desert In The Spring
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: BlueJay]
#649048 - 05/28/02 05:05 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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The difficulty is not in crossing 2 strains-it is in knowing that a given colony has resulted from a cross and is not simply the result of a mating of 2 spores from a given strain.
If you mix spores from 2 strains in a syringe,sure, some will cross,but you are going to have a mass of mycelium that is A,B and AB.
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kingpin0397
Old School Raver
Registered: 04/20/02
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Loc: ct
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: BlueJay]
#649060 - 05/28/02 05:13 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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i'm goin to try it
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vatoloco
Puppet Hunter -DBK
Registered: 01/30/02
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Post deleted by MOE THE MAD SCIENTIST [Re: DreaMaTrix]
#649242 - 05/28/02 07:31 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Iowa Rasta
enthusiast
Registered: 12/07/00
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: vatoloco]
#649277 - 05/28/02 07:54 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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i dont think it would work
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http://go.to/freesporering FSR all the way
"Crobih is my Founder of the Shroomery"
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angryshroom
Stranger
Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 7,264
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 Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: BlueJay]
#649356 - 05/28/02 08:43 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Bluejay, I think you need to go deeper than that...;)
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strang
Registered: 04/23/01
Posts: 671
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: angryshroom]
#649398 - 05/28/02 09:09 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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seems like someone would have stumbled upon that before.. i dont think its that easy or vendors would be releasing new strains daily..
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phrozendata
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 5,015
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... *DELETED* [Re: strang]
#649640 - 05/28/02 11:58 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Post deleted by phrozendata
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"There's only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving and that's your own self. So you have to begin there, not
outside, not on other people" - Aldous Huxley
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indicaz
Lysol God
Registered: 04/12/02
Posts: 580
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: phrozendata]
#649950 - 05/28/02 04:40 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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I dont know where this actually touches on fact, I thought if 2 different strains of the same species come in contact they will compete and the stronger one will over take the weaker and that is why you cannot cross strains...
What scientific proof is there to back this claim? I find this interesting i would like to know more..
later
indicaz
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Anonymous
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: indicaz] 1
#650041 - 05/28/02 05:31 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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A hybrid would result from the mating of a monokaryon of one strain with a monokaryon of another strain. This paired Dikaryon would be a hybrid between the two strains. The true success of the hybrid would be if it produced fruits that had spores. Only at this stage would the true hybrid STRAIN be accomplished. No genetic information is exchanged between the two strains until their seperate haploid nuclei have fused and then undergone meiosis. Recombination would then occur between the two seperate strains forming a third strain. It's offspring(spores) would be new combinations of the two donor strains.
Hybrids can also be formed by Anastomosis between two dikaryons of different Strains, but it will happen at Far less frequency then mating monokaryons.
Anastomosis occurs at a higher frequency between substrains of an individual strain. I.E. between different spore matings resulting from a single syringe. When you multispore innoculate a jar of substrate, this is Happening with a high degreee of frequency. A dominant mating will fuse with other matings, incorporating them into it's mycelial network. It can even rewire a false mating into a good mating. It can overcome an incompatible mating, by replacing one of the nuclei within another strand with one of it's own.
A Fertile dikaryon A1B1 A2B2 can run into an infertile A1B2 A2B2 and replace the A1B2 nuclei with a A1B1 nuclei. Creating a fertile A1B1 A2B2 dikaryon that joins the colony. Subsequent fusion could replace the A2B2 nuclei with it's own A2B2 nuclei, which would completely rewire the hyphal strand to it's exact genetic makeup. Or it could leave it partially rewired.
This process can be seen on a Nutrient agar plate. Not all substrains within a strain will fuse, some are completely incompatible. There will be a zone of zero growth between them on the petriplate. They just will not fuse.
In essence hybrids can be formed between substrains of a single strain or between different strains of the same species.
This is the theory, this has been scientifically demonstrated on other species of Basidiomycetes that have been studied!!! I know of know studies that have been done on CUBENSIS, relating to this information. But it must exist. Because it has been Clearly stated in several texts, that Psilocybe cubensis is heterothallic and tetrapolar. And all the above information relates to that type of breeding system in the Basidiomycetes.
You ask why this is not being done, because not much MONEY goes into this type of research in the legitamite world.
Anastomosis has been studied extensively in the edible mushroom world. Agaricus bisporus is homothallic and two spored, not four. Each and every spore it produces already contains both haploid nuclei to make a dikaryon. But fusion(Anastamosis) between these dikaryons produces more productive Dikaryons!!! The majority of High yielding bisporous are a result of HYBRIDIZATION within a STRAIN or between Strains of this species. So if it occurs between DIKARYONS of this species,it has been viewed occuring between monokaryons of other species, WHY WOULD anyone Doubt that it can occur within the Species Psilocybe cubensis.
The major factor to overcome with mating monokaryons is the proximity with which they germinate. Spores tend to clump. So simply placing spores of two different strains in a single syringe, will not overcome the clumping of spores of like strains, and hence their close proximity to each other upon germination.
Probably still occurs, when injected into a substrate, and some of the resulting fruitbodies might actually be hybrids, between Strains, and the resulting offspring (spores) from that mushroom will be different looking then both the mushroom it came from, and all of the mushrooms from both the Donor strains.
Much easier to DILUTE spores from each strain seperately, plate them, isolate slower growing monokaryons, and try mating as many of these from each strain as possible, with as many as possible from the other strain. All matings that fruit, are hybrids!!! If they produce spores, you now have a new STRAIN. Simply cloning the original matings that fruited, will be a Hybrid as well, but not a true hybrid, becasue their has been NO Recombination between the two strains, NO MIXING OF GENES. There has simply been a successful coexistence of two haploid nuclei, one from each Strain, acting independently, but together to create fruits!!! The real genetic swap occurs during Karyogomay and the subsequent meiosis.
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Roadkill
Retired Shroomery Mod
Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 22,674
Loc: Montana
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 Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ] 1
#650288 - 05/28/02 09:12 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Very good post Teonan!!
one of the better posts that I have read lately.
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Laterz, Road
Who the hell you callin crazy?
You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch!
Brainiac said:
PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.
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zeronio
Stranger
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: Roadkill]
#650318 - 05/28/02 09:55 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Very very good post - I'm saving it. Better explanation than in most books that I have.
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Jammer
Computers areMORE Addictive!
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Posts: 3,998
Loc: (God's Country) - USA
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 Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: zeronio]
#650327 - 05/28/02 10:12 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ah yea...
Search engines in gear.... now where is that book (blowing off dust)... damm my 'scope is broke...
I really need to do more crank sometimes.
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>>Jammer>>
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angryshroom
Stranger
Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 7,264
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ]
#650338 - 05/28/02 10:32 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Teonan, I didnt mean that deep.
lol, j/k thats some awsome information. Thanks a lot.
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mycophreak
journeyman
Registered: 05/29/02
Posts: 50
Loc: Europe
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ]
#651104 - 05/29/02 10:41 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Mixing sporewater of two different cubensis genotypes usually results in plenty mycelium and no pinning. It is the most important test to find out if two strains are the same or not and first published at the fanaticus site.
The problem with Psilocybe cubensis is that it is not a real species, but a group of closely related species (a species complex). The species Psilocybe cubensis does not exist.
Mycophreak
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mycophreak
journeyman
Registered: 05/29/02
Posts: 50
Loc: Europe
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ]
#651128 - 05/29/02 10:51 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Theonan wrote:
>Hybrids can also be formed by Anastomosis between two dikaryons of different >Strains, but it will happen at Far less frequency then mating monokaryons.
I wonder if this can be considered a real hybrid - even if it happens between two differen strains. When two karyons meet they may exchange nuclei but the different nuclei do not reshuffle their genes until the moment of spore formation.
I have often wondered about that. Compared to humans it is as if fungi spend most of their lifetime in the same pre-embryonic state as an egg cell which is just penetrated by a sperm cell but of which the two nuclei have not been fused yet.
Mycophreak
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Anonymous
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: mycophreak]
#651816 - 05/29/02 04:25 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have read the Fanaticus argument for spore races, and I don't think it is relevant for Psilocybe cubensis. His proof is a non related mushroom, that is a pathogen of living trees. The variation within that species is a result of it's adapting (Physiologically) to Plant defense compounds, it comes in contact with on the many different species of trees it eats. It attacks living trees!!! It must evolve specialized enzymes, structural features, etc.. to overcome this diversity. These changes require changes in it's genes. These changes are significant enough that they result in RACE developement. Compatibility is lost, to protect these differences. They are still labeled as the same species by taxonomists, and just refered to as RACES. Cubensis encounters none of these problems. Each STRAIN is able to feed on similar substrates, in similar environments. B+ will eat anything that GT, or EQ, will eat. The same cannot be said for the different races of Armillaria mellea. PF will eat anything as well, it just prefers the substance it has been eating for a very long time. It has a prefrence for it, but it is not limited to it. This does not make it a cultural or physiological Race. Isolate monokaryons of it and breed them with monokaryons of all the other Strains in circulation. YOU will be DISSAPOINTED to find that they do mate!!! P.cubensis is a single species that has been spread around the world, all of it's variation is related to the composition of the manure it fruits on, and the immediate suroundings(climate) it lives in. This is my opinion, and it is in disagreement with PF theory.
Comparing cubensis to Armillaria mellea is bad science, in my OPINION.
His other proof is related to injecting a mixed spore solution of two strains into a single substrate. This is not isolation of monokaryons to perform a compatibility study. As was stated, compatible spores closest to each other will mate first, these will then fuse with compatible dikaryons that are closest. Fusions will occur between a single STRAIN at a higher frequency then between strains.
Multisporing itself takes longer to reach maturity, add two different strains into the mix, and it will take longer. You want fast, you use isolated cultures of a single substrain.
Breeding experiments should start on a petri plate, not in a jar. In his test, a dominant strain could have just outcompeted the weaker strains, or just incorporated them into itself. The problem with testing that way, is YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. You are just making guesses.
Compatibility tests are done the same way BREEDING systems are determined. Via monokaryon isolation and breeding tests!!! Some one had to perform the REAL test to know that P. cubensis as a species is HETEROTHALLIC and TETRAPOLAR. Simply injecting spores into a substrate could never lead to that determination.
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Shdwstr
FSRCanada
Registered: 02/17/01
Posts: 2,156
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ]
#652007 - 05/29/02 06:11 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Excellent post Teonan... now... How do we cross a Pan Trop with an Orissa to get some REALLY BIG kickass shrooms  Heheheh
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Middleman
Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,405
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 Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: Shdwstr]
#652224 - 05/29/02 08:26 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hahaha Yaha!
...that's what i was just thinking.
mycophreak wrote:
"The problem with Psilocybe cubensis is that it is not a real species, but a group of closely related species (a species complex). The species Psilocybe cubensis does not exist."
please explain Further...
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Anonymous
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: Middleman] 1
#652848 - 05/30/02 07:25 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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If you visit the PF site and read through his information, you will see what his theory of SPORE RACES within cubensis is about.
As I stated, his proof is a non related plant pathogen that eats living trees. hence has aquired physiological races, within a species. This means it has STRAINS that can't breed with eachother, they are incompatible. This makes them by definition races and not Strains anymore. Some may actually classify them as seperate species, which is probably technically accurate, but would create TAXANOMIC nightmares!!!
The majority of plant pathogens share a common host , but have adapted RACES that prefer a single host, that others have not adapted to eating. This variation is significant enough that it has effected the genes of the RACE. It can no longer breed with other races, and could be considered a seperate species.
I have seen no cubensis eat living trees, plants. Every Strain I have seen, will eat a wide variety of substrates, and all of them can eat the same stuff. Nothing in the composition of the digested manure, of cows anywhere in the world, should result in RACE developement. The manure doesn't fight back against predation!!!
Culturally, you could probably create a RACE of cubensis. And if anyone does it, it will probably be the PF. Continuous growth on the same exact substrate, over and over and over, and over, for year after year, could probably turn a prefrence into a neccesity. But with the countless cultivators out there, and many of them using alternative substrates, you could probably fix that problem in a few generations, breeding PF from multiple substrates, back to PF from BRF. Maybe not though.
There is certainly insufficient evidence to suggest that any of these STRAINS are actually RACES, by the definition he is using. And certainly insufficient evidence to suggest their are multiple species making up the single species cubensis. Time will tell, with the growth in this hobby, and the quality of it's practitioners, some folks might actually take the time that is needed to apply the information that is out there. PUT IT TO THE TEST.
Monokaryon to Monokaryon. Breed them, fruit the resulting dikaryons, and germinate and fruit the resulting spores!!! Hopefully they will have LABELED properly, and been highly anal in their procedure, and note taking. Hopefully they will be kind enough to share with the OMC.
Then of course, there will be the important component of BELIEF. We will have to take the word of the experimenter, until others REPRODUCE it.
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indicaz
Lysol God
Registered: 04/12/02
Posts: 580
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ]
#653470 - 05/30/02 11:58 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Teonan, I just have one question whats your IQ dood?
like a walking myco dictionary
great post
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BlueJay
Pan Man
Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 307
Loc: Christs' peace patrol
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ]
#653766 - 05/30/02 01:52 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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wow...I started this thread and my old hand took care of all scientiffic mumbo jumbo.....Common sense after knowing you need two spores two make a myc strand...just mix the spores then take many prints..cross these back to the one strain you want most dominate.. Take many prints and see if the high and certain growth characstics are there.. Keep both A & B pure also and your new C strain.........Big man out.....Peace always......J
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Respect all, Fear None!
The Peacemaker
Cacti are my new life.....
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r05c03
The Slug Scourge
Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 383
Loc: Indiana, US
Last seen: 19 years, 5 months
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: BlueJay]
#653907 - 05/30/02 03:03 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Everything that Teonan has said is true. Races, pathovars, and varieties of plant pathogenic fungi are created due to evolution of preferences to particular plant species.
However, it also true that supposedly, many of the strains available to us are from very separate parts of the world. Having barriers as large as oceans and mountain ranges in between different and genetically isolated fungi could very easily lead to sexual non-compatibility and there for the creation of new species / sub-species / what ever you want to call it. This is already noted in phylogenetic studies on well known fungi such as Shitake.
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Listen! Do you smell something?
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Anonymous
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: r05c03]
#654166 - 05/30/02 05:14 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Shitake is a Saprophyte, but it feeds on Varying species of TREES. A RACE that feeds off of Oak, may not feed on Beech. This is a real difference, physiological, that has lead to incompatibility.
You are comparying apples to oranges. The possibility is always there for mutation, I just don't think it has happened with the cubensis to the extent that it has RACES. The only exception is the closely related P. subcubensis. It is however considered a different species!!!
Time will tell.
Point me to a cubensis that has this type of substrate specificity!!! An absolute intolerance for a substrate that another cubensis will eat.
The closest is PF, but it isn't absolute!!!
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canid
irregular meat sprocket
Registered: 02/26/02
Posts: 11,912
Loc: looking for zeebras, n. c...
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ]
#654492 - 05/30/02 07:53 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Teonan, wouldn't it also be (hypotheticaly) possible for hybridization to occur between seperate but (geneticaly) similar species assuning compatible mating types? i know this would be far less likely to produce fertile, or even fruitible cultures but i think it's interesting.
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 Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it.
If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.
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r05c03
The Slug Scourge
Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 383
Loc: Indiana, US
Last seen: 19 years, 5 months
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ] 1
#654715 - 05/31/02 12:54 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well, the research into differences in shitakes did not mention substrate specificty as the basis of the difference. I am not comparing apples to oranges (apples and orange are quite similar actually especially if you are look at UV absorbance spectrum), especially if you insist on arguing that subtrate specificity is the main driving force behind the creation of races, strains, subspecies, or whatever. Do imagine the elephant dung is exactly like cow dung is exactly like horse dung, is exactly like rhinocerous dung. I doubt it, each likely has its own moisutre contents, ratios of undigested to digested material, nitrogen content, bacterial populations and so on. Not to mention that each animal is likely to feed on different substrates. These differences could be as large as differences that exist between oak and beech. Thus a population that grows almost primarily on cow dung could differ substanitally from one that grows on elephant dung.
Secondly, taking something you said earlier, P. cubensis has been spread all over the world. It is a simple fact that geographic separation and the lack of ability to interbreed leads to speciation. This is well documented in fungi. This is especially true if the founding population is of limited genetic diversity or depth. The tendancy of a isolated population derived from a shallow gene pool to form new species is a generally accepted theory called genetic drift.
Surely, as you say, in the case of or arguement, nothing will be proven unitl some one does the research. It is too bad that most researchers would not touch this baby with a ten foot pole due to certain legal issues in our country. We cannot liberalize our research until we liberalize our drug law.
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Listen! Do you smell something?
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Waldarbeiter
can you eat it?
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: r05c03]
#655217 - 05/31/02 07:04 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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I got idea:
Take a mushroom of strain A, clone it on a petri dish.
Then, take a nice shroom of strain B, clone it on another petri dish.
Third step: inoculate a fresh petri dish w?th mycelium from dish A and dish B.
Let it grow together. *Maybe* you have a "new" strain then.
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Anonymous
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: r05c03]
#658017 - 06/01/02 06:49 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think that apples and oranges are very different plants. They don't interbreed either.
Genetic drift can lead to new species. So can overcoming secondary metabolite production in the food your are trying to eat. Lots of things can lead to mutation.
MY point was becasue one mushroom has developed races, doesn't mean all have. Cubensis might be a whole shit load of non interbreeding races, or a group of species. I don't know, but no one has posted any info that leads me to believe they are. I would love to see even the original Mating type study, but I haven't.
I just dislike people posting that they are non-mating, RACES, or a group of species, without proof.
Didn't mean to offend with the apples and oranges remark!! Was just an expression. I do think that races within mushroom species is strongly related to the food they are trying to eat. Certainly when the food fight's back!!!
Do cubensis grow in Rhino shit? Anyone got some spores?
Peace
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r05c03
The Slug Scourge
Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 383
Loc: Indiana, US
Last seen: 19 years, 5 months
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ]
#658389 - 06/02/02 03:23 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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No no offense. The apple and oragnes comment I made was from an actual tongue-in-cheek research paper where some one tried to justify the "apples and oranges" theory. So he analysed the juice with a UV spec and found that the UV absorbtion spectra were nearly indistiguishable. Thus he concluded that apples and orages were not really that different. Its just jokes, totally out of context though so it probably came out wrong.
At anyrate. Yeah none of this stuff is proven, but most legitmate researchers with the means and resources will not do the work. Can't blame them, really. But both mating and phylogenetics could easily answer (and probably make more questions) most of the interrelatedness and evolutionary relatedness queestions that have been asked on this board. Bummer.
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Listen! Do you smell something?
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_Lucid_
journeyman
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 Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: r05c03]
#658624 - 06/02/02 06:43 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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definitly some interesting stuff, way over my head being more of a physics person and less bio, actualy I have never even taken a bio course. Well, time to find the advil, my head is hurting, ill have to reread this thread again in the future, maybe ill get some of it.
Teonan, if everyone else hadnt of been like yeah, thats it, i would have just assumed you were trippen when you wrote that
dikaryons, monokaryons, Anastomosis, OH MY! 
hey, i wonder if its posible to get that eye licking icon i have for my post icon to be come of those instant smileys so i can put a bunch of eyelickers in my posts. 
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The believer is happy, the doubter is wise
- Hungarian proverb
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ralphster44
collector
Registered: 01/03/01
Posts: 4,657
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 Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ]
#1153636 - 12/19/02 03:39 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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Post deleted by administrator.
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www.RalphstersSpores.com
WE SHIP TO CANADA FROM WITHIN CANADA 
For your safety and security, we have a Secure Website.
Also for your security, we will not take your credit card number.
Your security and safety is of utmost importance to us.
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i am e goldstein
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 Post deleted by Administrator [Re: ]
#1153660 - 12/19/02 03:48 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.
3DSHROOMS is either clueless or the worlds biggest SCUMBAG
I lie and exagerate constantly... God Bless America!
Edited by i am e goldstein (12/19/02 03:50 AM)
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Raadt
nicht
Registered: 06/07/02
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: BlueJay]
#1153756 - 12/19/02 04:21 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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Do you have any evidence of what you are talking about? Or are you just making assumptions? heh
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Raadt
-- The information I provide is only information from readings, growing of gourmet mushrooms, and second hand stories--
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daussaulit
Forgetful
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ralphster44]
#1153867 - 12/19/02 04:55 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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Before you posted this thread was over 6 months old. just thought I might point that out.
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G a n j a
Pictish and proud
Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 7,860
Loc: Zone ate
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: daussaulit]
#1154408 - 12/19/02 07:47 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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Glad it got resurected
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Anonymous
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: DreaMaTrix]
#1154700 - 12/19/02 09:04 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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n/a
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Skikid16
fungus fan
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ralphster44]
#1154730 - 12/19/02 09:18 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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Cross poster. 
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Re-Defeat Bush in '04
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SixCee
keep rolling
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 3,720
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: Skikid16]
#1155217 - 12/19/02 12:11 PM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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Golden Creeper
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Anonymous
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ralphster44]
#1155649 - 12/19/02 03:28 PM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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Monokaryon mating is the way to go. Not random spore mixtures of two different strains.
The true hybrid strain is going to come from the SPORES of the original Dikaryon formed via anastamosis or monokaryon mating. Until spores occur, the life cycle of the fungus is one of cooperation between two SEPERATE nuclei housed under a single roof(hyphae) acting in a coordinated effort. The spores produced from this coordinated effort, will be the hybrid SPORES.
Hybridization frequency is greatest between monokaryons. Succesful hybridization is more then likely going to occur in isolation, as opposed to concentration. A single germinated spore from one strain placed next to a single germinated spore from the other strain. Doing this with as many monokaryons as you can isolate from each strain.
Hybridization occuring between different species of fungi is highly unlikely to occur this way.
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Anonymous
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: i am e goldstein]
#1155696 - 12/19/02 03:52 PM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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When you have mycelium isolated on agar, everything becomes apparent.
If you know you have a limited number of spores within a solution. You know the spores are not clumping, but are individual in the solution. (microscope needed)
You can place drops of this solution evenly scattered around a petri plate of media. Individual spores will germinate, and can be isolated from eachother before compatible monokaryons mate. You do this with each STRAIN you want to cross.
Once you have monokaryons of each, you can plate them up together(one from each strain next to each other).
Lots of them may just continue to grow two distinct SLOW GROWING monokaryons. Others will mate. Those that mate will have a single uniform dikaryon growing from the two matched monokaryons. This mycelium is faster growing then the monokaryons. You can assume this is the Dikaryon, or can make sure, by plating each suspected dikaryon up seperately.
Clamp connections are present in cubensis Dikaryons, so you can KNOW for sure that a Dikaryon has occured. USUALLY you can just TELL one has occured, because Dikaryotic mycelium LOOKS DIFFERENT then monokaryon mycelium. When everything is occuring in isolation(Dilution versus concentration) it all is Visibly occuring.
Each Dikaryon formed is tested for fruiting and spores. These spores formed are hybrid spores between TWO DIFFERENT STRAINS.
According to the literature, HYBRIDS tend to be less vigorous then each of the DONOR Strains. SOME are more vigourous.
Lots of work, and in the end you just have another CUBENSIS. According to the literature, Better off spending your time isolating the most vigourous substrain of your favorite Strains on/in your particular environment.
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livingsublime
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ]
#1156004 - 12/19/02 05:47 PM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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Man this was a cool thread!
I just got done reading it all and it took a while but it was realy neat to hear all about what could posibly hapen or maybe not.
Teonan:man your smart,you have so much info it's not even funny!
How about you try and combine 2 different strain or whatever and post you results in the grow logs.
I would but I am a newbie to growing and still useing myco-bags!
Great read though guys!
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em_bre_O
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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: ]
#1156009 - 12/19/02 05:49 PM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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Skikid16
fungus fan
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: em_bre_O]
#1156618 - 12/19/02 10:16 PM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I am not trying to offend with this post but I personally need more proof than what is given here such as the ppl that have status outside of this tiny end of the net Meaning preferably Stamets.
See what Stamets has to say, read ch. 11 in TMC, especially the section "Spore Dilution Technique" on p. 340. Good Stuff. 
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Re-Defeat Bush in '04
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mycofile
Pooh-Bah
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Loc: Uranus
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ]
#1157325 - 12/20/02 06:13 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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Teonan, as usual, I completely agree with nearly everything you've said. Especially the criticism of PF's theory, I never liked it myself. I think it's funny how he uses such poor "scientific" tests for his theories, then he very condescendingly refers to people like us as "pop mycologists".
Anyway, a tip on spore dilutions. Run them through an eberbach container, or a blender jar ala 9er tek. The blending will break up spore clumps, but not damage the spores. Blending at each dilution stage helps alot. You will much fewer clumps which lead to the dikaryons if you blend the spores. For proof as to how effective this is at breaking up the spores, nanook is getting up to 100 spyringes per print with blended spore water, vs 10 or so with clumpy spore water.
I do wonder however about how common anastomosis is. I think it may be much more common than people think. But so far as usefulness goes, there is no good way aside from dna profiling to be certain when the genetic material has actually been exchanged. At least not that I know of. So, I think in nature and in practice the "non-self unions" may be rather common, but they are pretty useless when it comes to breeding.
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"From a certain point of view"
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PM me with any cultivation questions.
I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.
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em_bre_O
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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: Skikid16]
#1157613 - 12/20/02 08:31 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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Anonymous
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ]
#1158178 - 12/20/02 01:03 PM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -
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i am e goldstein
Your Friend
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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: ]
#1158225 - 12/20/02 01:25 PM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.
3DSHROOMS is either clueless or the worlds biggest SCUMBAG
I lie and exagerate constantly... God Bless America!
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Anonymous
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: i am e goldstein]
#1158244 - 12/20/02 01:33 PM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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Suntzu
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ]
#1158324 - 12/20/02 02:04 PM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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Teonan, great posts, very informative;
I really like the suggestion of lightly blending the spore solution. One other thing that might make this acutally *possible* for a home cultivator with a little equipment. . . After establishing a collection of monokaryons, to use flat-bottom 96 well plates for the crossings; They would be easy to keep track of [A1-H12], and the flat bottoms are designed with some kind of light analysis [e.g. microscopy] in mind. A few drops of agar in each well [they come sterile] and you have a micro-petri. It would be cheaper and more compact than petris, and you wouldn't have the problem of one crossing accidentally 'mixing' with its neighbor. 96 crossings on one petri-sized unit
Maybe they do this already? If I were to do it, that would be the route I'd go; With spore solutions at a proper blended dilution, a few sleeves of petri plates could generate enough monokaryons for a few 96 well plates; That's quite a few crossings, not a whole lot of commited resources;
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Anonymous
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: Suntzu]
#1158338 - 12/20/02 02:13 PM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -
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i am e goldstein
Your Friend
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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: ]
#1158402 - 12/20/02 02:56 PM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.
3DSHROOMS is either clueless or the worlds biggest SCUMBAG
I lie and exagerate constantly... God Bless America!
Edited by i am e goldstein (12/20/02 02:58 PM)
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Anonymous
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: mycofile]
#1159069 - 12/20/02 07:44 PM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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The addition of a surfactant to the water(soap,tween) has also been mentioned as a means to get non clumping solutions. But I suggest using them fast, soap seems to accelerate germination within the solution.
NON SELF UNIONS are the only succesful ones in nature. They are the ones that produce viable spores. No two monokaryons that are identical for mating type factors can mate and form a dikaryon.
Every Fertile dikaryon is the result of a non-self union.
Essentially, I wouldn't buy any HYBRID spores originating from any mushrooms that werent the result of MATED MONOKARYONS, of Different strains of KNOWN TYPE.
I would buy a culture of a PURE STRAIN of KNOWN VIGOR no matter how the Dikaryon was formed. Mated monokaryons or Anastamosis of Dikaryons.
I think when you multispore a jar of substrate, all of this occurs quite frequently. I think more then a single fertile substrain(Dikaryon)emerges from the chaos to yield the fruits. I also think that each fertile dikaryon probably has large sections of it's mycelial network made up of fused infertile(false matings), these sections just don't fruit. They can still be involved in digestion and transport(increased surface area of feeding). Many false matings and monokaryons also get over-run, and die off, because they could not fuse with the rest of the mycelium due to incompatability( self-unions). In the end a multispored jar of substrate is a collage of substrains fertile and infertile, all working together to make mushrooms.
I agree Anastamosis is probably extremely common when considering the number of spores that are involved in reproduction. It is kinda a catch 22, concentration increases the chances of success, but dilution guarentees KNOWING of the success.
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Anonymous
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: em_bre_O]
#1159108 - 12/20/02 08:06 PM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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How much will you pay me for STEP by STEP photos?
Stametes is the one who said the hybrids formed via either method were less vigorous then their donor strains MOST OF THE TIME.
The literature states that P. cubensis has a certain type of Breeding strategy, heterothallic, tetrapolar, SO SOMEONE MUST HAVE DONE A COMPATABILITY STUDY to KNOW THAT!!!
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Anno
Experimenter
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ]
#1159335 - 12/21/02 01:10 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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>How much will you pay me for STEP by STEP photos?
Is a sixpac enough?
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whiterasta
Day careobserver
Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
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 Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: Anno]
#1159398 - 12/21/02 02:34 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hell Anno make it a case! Great stuff Teonan especially outlining the types of mycelial connections.I learned some NEW info that explains some things I have observed.Thank You for the time to post it WR
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To old for this place
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Anonymous
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: i am e goldstein]
#1159460 - 12/21/02 03:33 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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ralphster44
collector
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: mycofile]
#1159461 - 12/21/02 03:33 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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Post deleted by administrator.
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i am e goldstein
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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: ]
#1159518 - 12/21/02 04:22 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.
3DSHROOMS is either clueless or the worlds biggest SCUMBAG
I lie and exagerate constantly... God Bless America!
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Anno
Experimenter
Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 24,167
Loc: my room
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: i am e goldstein]
#1159573 - 12/21/02 05:04 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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BlueJay
Pan Man
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: i am e goldstein]
#1159620 - 12/21/02 05:34 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well Being I heard from the big boys that are my mentors I guess that mixing t3 and pr's have a very slim chance(but not impossible) of picking the fruit of the hybrid...I will not play with this experiment and now will focus on the 4 different Pan strains from around the world I have obtained...Thanks Anno and Teonan!!! I am sorry to force my hybrid theory on anyone but What the hell do I call the 3rd gen cube I have in the future...Nice rhizo myc but switches to fruit rather easily...with nice large fruits that are potent...I just will keep these spores to myself here on out and call them my strain. That way it doesnt pollute the true spores floating out there 'just in case the genetics did mix....Thank you to all the knowledge givers but not the hate throwers........
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Respect all, Fear None!
The Peacemaker
Cacti are my new life.....
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em_bre_O
shroomery'sEmbryoticAsshole
Registered: 05/27/02
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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: ]
#1160194 - 12/21/02 11:03 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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Anonymous
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: em_bre_O]
#1160299 - 12/21/02 12:24 PM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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You are absolutely right. Without a verifiable, reproducable, study, DOCUMENTED with pictures and DNA proof, this is all an educated assumption. There is more proof to support that this will occur then that it won't!!!!
I certainly don't think injecting spores of two strains into a jar of substrate is proof that it won't. I certainly don't think casing a tray with two different strains spawn is proof that it won't happen. Actually plating out monokaryons, mating them, and fruiting the resultant Dikaryons will be proof, verifiable by DNA for those that did not do the study. You still have to ASSUME when you view the study, that the scientist actually used the different STRAINS. They could just be lying. An assumtpion you would probably make when the evidence is presented to you. UNLESS YOU TRY IT, you will never be convinced.
The information is being posted in case someone less skeptical/or even more skeptical then yourself, might decide to try it.
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Anonymous
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: i am e goldstein]
#1163285 - 12/22/02 06:46 PM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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SomeMycologist
some guy
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: BlueJay]
#1164924 - 12/23/02 11:25 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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have yo tryed
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Waldarbeiter
can you eat it?
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: BlueJay]
#1171130 - 12/26/02 08:19 AM (21 years, 9 months ago) |
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I saw some guys at the shroomery's having microscopes . They did pics of single spores... they are the ones to bring two different spores together on agar...
Also the easier method of crossing two diff. strains is xplained in Stamet's "Mushroom Cultivator"
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MirrorImage
newbie
Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 50
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ]
#2455532 - 03/20/04 08:18 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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nice explanations m8 - be interested in any further info you have on this subject.:)
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spadlishus7
GEARHEADLIKEAMOFO
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: DreaMaTrix]
#2455568 - 03/20/04 08:33 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
DreaMaTrix said:
Have you tried this??
I would like to cross Pink Buffalo and Penis Envy, I would call it Pink Penis or Buffalo Penis, not sure which.
OMG I can't stop
laughing!!!!!!
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: spadlishus7]
#2455645 - 03/20/04 08:59 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Personally, I think penis envy is just such a 'hybrid'. Take a close look at it. . .
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Darkenshroom
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5550928 - 04/24/06 12:15 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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I know this is horrendous of me to do, but having come across this gem of a thread in the archives I thought I would give it a ressurection for the new generation of mycophiles who may have such questions..
Teonan laid it out here so well it should answer almost any questions regarding hybridizing strains.
So don't flame me for resurrecting an ancient post, I know its ancient but its good info that I think might interest alot of people.
Darken
*smiles*
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~The first and most important step in cultivation of the wonderful mushroom, is the cultivation of patience for without it you doom yourself to failure~
Edited by Darkenshroom (04/24/06 12:16 PM)
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BlimeyGrimey
Collector of Spores
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: Darkenshroom]
#5551390 - 04/24/06 03:04 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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i also realize this is an old thread, but i'll shed some light on a real way to cross "strains" (not species) that i learned from Workman over at mycotopia.
Get a single spore isolate of the first strain you want to cross and transfer an agar wedge to some grains, let it almost fully colonize.
then dilute some spore solution of a different strain. inject this solution into the colonized grain.
the idea is that since the colonized grain is only colonized by a single spore isolate's mycelium, then the diluted spores you inject have a better chance of joining with this isolated mycelium rather than with a spore of its own strain. you'd have to REALLY dilute the 2nd solution, i mean use 1 drop of normal spore solution to 10cc of plain water, and shake ALOT or use an ultra-sonic bath (jewelry cleaner type thing) to break up any clumping spores.
even if the 2nd strain does join with eachother, remember that MOST of the mycelium in the jar WILL be a cross.
why?
the jar was first fully colonized by monokaryotic mycelium, so once it starts to fruit, you know that at the VERY VERY least you'll get atleast one crossed fruit.
if you dont believe me check out Workman's PF-albino/Costa Rican cross and his PF-albino/Penis envy crosses over at mycotopia.
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fastfred
Old Hand
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
#5584670 - 05/03/06 07:23 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Maybe someone can clarify the nomenclature for me, but I thought that A1+B2 and A2+B1 would be compatible mating types not A1+B1 and A2+B2 as indicated way back in this post...
Also talk of DNA proof is just silly IMHO. That's never going to happen and nobody in the mycological field demands that level of proof. The standard for proof of mating is observing clamp connections. You take single spore isolates, plate them together and observe any clamp connections or the lack thereof. If that culture produces fruit and spores then you have a cross.
Also talk of hybrids is not exactly correct. Hybrids are between different species such as a mule is a horse-donkey hybrid. There are many more examples in the plant world, but hybrids are almost always sterile. Intra-species mating produces a cross, not a hybrid.
One other note... I think a lot of spore vendors are pulling a lot of bullshit when it comes to claiming new strains. From the discussions here I think that they are just mucking up the genetics and obscuring the true lineage of the products they are selling. This is definitely detrimental to the science of mycology, if not downright dishonest.
To explain... If you take single-spore isolates of two separate strains and mate them you will come up with a cross. You are absolutely guaranteed that this is a new genetic combination never before seen. If you then take the progeny of that cross and breed it normally with itself for several generations you will have a true-breeding strain that can honestly be called it's own strain.
If on the other hand you mix strains A and B in a syringe or in a substrate... You have just lost the genetic identity of any progeny or future offspring of that mixture. You don't know if the spores you collect from the fruit are strain A, strain B, or an AxB cross! You have just lost any idea of it's true lineage. And there's no way to recover that information! You will never know who the parents are and it will forever be a bastard culture. All this does is muck around in the dark with the gene pool and create bunches of "new" "strains" that might not even really be crosses at all.
So if you don't have the equipment or know-how to do controlled mating experiments, please do them only for your own enjoyment and know that they will be always be bastards of unknown parentage. It's not hard to do it right. Even the cheapest kids microscope can spot individual spores. Simply dilute your spores enough so that you can pick them individually off of your agar (preferably before they even germinate). Always check them with a scope! Spores love to clump. Germinate individual spores on separate media, labeling what strain they came from, and mate them to your heart's content. It's that easy! All it takes is a $15 microscope and $15 worth of agar... That's not too much to ask of people that want to claim new strains is it?
-FF
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It drinks the alcohol and abstains from the weed or else it gets the hose again. -Chemy
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I find the whole "my drug should be legal but yours should be illegal" mindset disgusting and hypocritical. It's what George Bush and company do when they drink a cocktail and debate the best way to imprison marijuana users. -Diploid
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Workman
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: fastfred]
#5585302 - 05/03/06 11:18 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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I keep hearing the same claim that crossed strains are not really hybrids. Has anyone actually looked up the definition of a hybrid? It is not as restrictive as some people seem to think.
hy·brid (hī'brĭd)
n.
Genetics. The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races.
I recently bought some hybrid tomato and corn seed and I don't think they were crossed with other species. Crossing two different varieties of cubensis is considered a hybrid under the above definition.
Most strains of cubensis are very similar in appearance making visual confirmation of a successful cross impossible. For this reason I have been using very distinct strains, such as the PF Albino and Penis Envy, as my parent stock.
Workman's Hybridization Experiments
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Edited by Workman (05/03/06 11:25 AM)
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fastfred
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: Workman]
#5585537 - 05/03/06 12:15 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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I stand corrected. I would say though that hybrid implies more genetic dissimilarity than the term "cross". A cross is pretty generic in that you can apply it to almost any mating. I would say it only implies that it's not selfed. The term hybrid definitely means genetic dissimilarity though. There's quite a few "strains" that don't show enough variation to qualify as hybrids when crossed IMHO.
Nice link, looks like you did some good work. If you have a distinct phenotype like albinism you don't really need to use single spore isolates to prove a cross. I wasn't thinking along those lines since it doesn't really apply to vary many strains. As long as you can show some sort of Mendelian breakdown of distinct traits in the progeny you don't need to spend the time doing spore isolates. Nice work Workman.
-FF
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It drinks the alcohol and abstains from the weed or else it gets the hose again. -Chemy
The difference between the substances doesn't matter. This is a war on consciousness, on our right to the very essence of what we are. With no control over that, we have no need to speak of freedom or a free society. -fireseed
"If we are going to have a war on marijuana, the least we can do is pull the sick and the dying off the battlefield." -Neal Levine (MPP)
I find the whole "my drug should be legal but yours should be illegal" mindset disgusting and hypocritical. It's what George Bush and company do when they drink a cocktail and debate the best way to imprison marijuana users. -Diploid
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thenewguy05
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: fastfred]
#5585571 - 05/03/06 12:22 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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i totally agree. i cross pollinate christmas cacti (pink and red) and they are considered hybrids. same with flowers, you hybridize flowers for a specific color or some other phenotype.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: Workman]
#5585642 - 05/03/06 12:39 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Workman said:
I keep hearing the same claim that crossed strains are not really hybrids. Has anyone actually looked up the definition of a hybrid? It is not as restrictive as some people seem to think.
hy·brid (hī'brĭd)
n.
Genetics. The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races.
I recently bought some hybrid tomato and corn seed and I don't think they were crossed with other species. Crossing two different varieties of cubensis is considered a hybrid under the above definition.
Most strains of cubensis are very similar in appearance making visual confirmation of a successful cross impossible. For this reason I have been using very distinct strains, such as the PF Albino and Penis Envy, as my parent stock.
Workman's Hybridization Experiments
Interesting. So you consider a child born to a woman from france and a man from china a hybrid? I prefer the term 'interracial', but that's just me.
In my opinion, a 'hybrid' should be a bit more difficult to acheive than that. It's relatively easy to cross various strains of cubensis, with or without monokaryons, so I fail to see any real acheivement in doing so.
Species of fungi have been successfully crossed, so in my opinion, that ups the ante in what we/I call a hybrid. As I've said previously, others are free to disagree.
Personally however, I will not to claim any work I do as a hybrid until it's a cross species pairing.
RR
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thenewguy05
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5585765 - 05/03/06 01:08 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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so if you could cross a cat and a dog then and only then would you consider it hybridizing???
so dogs such as a yellow lab and a chihuahua mate it's not a hybrid because it's still in the same species???
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Workman
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5585778 - 05/03/06 01:13 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Technically, a French-Chinese child would be a hybrid by the definition posted, even if the term is considered distasteful when a applied to humans. Interracial is merely the politically correct term and I have never seen it commonly used for anything other than people of mixed ancestry.
It would be helpful to amend the hybrid designation with the level of hybridization. Such as varietal hybrid, interspecific hybrid, intergeneric hybrid, etc.
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Feelers
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: Workman]
#5585933 - 05/03/06 01:56 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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An interesting aspect on the "interracial hybrid", some studies were done on schools in Papua New Guinea. Turns out that the schools there were filled with a disproportionate amount of "hybrid" children(ie from mixed white and local parents). Supposedly they exhibit a degree of hybrid vigor - out performing both white/local children on average in many tests.
Quite cool 
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EonTan
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: fastfred]
#5587333 - 05/03/06 07:19 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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A1B1 monokaryons can mate with A2B2
A1B2 can mate with A2B1.
They just have to be different A and B factors.
A1B1 can also mate with A3B3, etc...............
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EonTan
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: Workman]
#5587349 - 05/03/06 07:23 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Exactly. Hybrid Strain does not CHEAPEN the Hybrid species. You can have both.
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texas34
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: Workman]
#5589419 - 05/04/06 09:50 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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To add to workman's comment, all humans are hybrids unless their family has massive amounts of inbreeding. Cross species hybrids are very rare and often sterile but not always.
To add some complexity to the mating discussion, there can also be partial matings in which one mating type locus is heterozygous and the other is homozygous, A3B1 x A4B1. These incomplete matings usually form dikaryotic hyphae that die soon afterwards. You would never recover these matings for long before they die, so they are basically the equivalent of no mating at all.
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fastfred
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: texas34]
#5593135 - 05/05/06 07:56 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm not agreeing with your explanation of mating types... There are only four mating types, so how are you getting A3B1 and A4B1? I'm not familiar with mating type naming conventions, but it seems to me that the numbers are creating confusion. You have two mating type loci, with two possible genotypes at each.
Maybe someone can clear up the confusion. Obviously I can't change the convention but I would suggest using Aa and Bb, giving you four possible combinations. AB, ab, Ab, and aB.
To add to the hybrid discussion... I think you guys need a little perspective on genetic diversity. A dog and cat cross is just silly. RR isn't suggesting anything like that as a criteria for calling something a hybrid. What he suggested was along the lines of a dog and a wolf, which are two different species (Canis lupus and Canis familiaris), but the same genus (Canis). There are dog x wolf hybrids. I think this is a very good example of a hybrid and what RR means by hybrid. A dog and a cat wouldn't be a hybrid, but rather a chimera.
On the other hand we have texas34 suggesting that you have to be completely inbred to not be considered a hybrid. All humans are the same genus and species. There is nowhere near the diversity between human races as between dogs and wolves.
-FF
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It drinks the alcohol and abstains from the weed or else it gets the hose again. -Chemy
The difference between the substances doesn't matter. This is a war on consciousness, on our right to the very essence of what we are. With no control over that, we have no need to speak of freedom or a free society. -fireseed
"If we are going to have a war on marijuana, the least we can do is pull the sick and the dying off the battlefield." -Neal Levine (MPP)
I find the whole "my drug should be legal but yours should be illegal" mindset disgusting and hypocritical. It's what George Bush and company do when they drink a cocktail and debate the best way to imprison marijuana users. -Diploid
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texas34
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: fastfred]
#5593687 - 05/05/06 11:19 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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OK, let me take a step back. I just used random numbers in my example to try and make my point. Most basidios have what used to be called a tetrapolar mating system. Because the term tetrapolar made people think only four alleles were involved, mycologists prefer the newer term of bifactorial now. In the bifactorial mating system, there are two loci (genes) with multiple alleles (at each loci) involved in determining mating type. What this means is that there are more than two possibilities for each gene. This is the most common pattern; some basidios have variations on this like two genes, one with multiple alleles and the other with 2 alleles. So for most mushrooms there are greatly more than 4 mating types. Additionally, the combination of the alleles for the two loci is the mating type not the alleles by themselves. Incomplete matings do occur; they just don't survive.
On to hybrids, your dog-wolf example is on the right track. The dog genome sequence was published by Lindblad-Toh et al. in the December 2005 issue of Nature (if you want to take a look I can pm you with the paper). They also examine the phylogenetic relationship of many canids to domesticated dogs in this paper. From this examination, dogs were domesticated from Grey wolves and have not diverged very much yet. Your likely to find most gene alleles from dogs in wolves as well, but the reverse is not necessarily true. This is because when dogs were domesticated only portions of wolves' diversity was fixed in dogs. Dogs and Grey wolves have only .04% sequence divergence in their exons and .21% divergence in their introns. Using the biological species concept (can the two populations interbreed), dog and Grey wolf should probably be considered separate sub-species rather than separate species. However, current convention has them as different species. Dogs can also hybridize to coyote, golden jackal, and Ethiopian wolves as well. These species are more distant from dogs than Grey wolves. What we are seeing is the creation of different species that has not fully taken place yet. We could interbreed all these species together make one species again given enough time, effort, and money although I see no reason to do so. In time these species will fully diverge and will no longer be able to interbreed if left alone (well dogs would not be around at all if we knew how to leave things alone).
An example of this phenomenon at a latter stage is the divergence of horse and donkey. In this case, interbreeding has broken down to the point that hybrids are sterile. I can't remember the specifics, but I think only female horses and male donkeys can mate successfully to create mules, which are all sterile females. I imagine that male hybrids either die soon after fertilization, or fertilization never takes place. So donkeys and horses are permanently separate now (unless we mess with them genetically).
With humans, there is just as much diversity within a "race" as between them. Race is a completely artificial term that is associated with very, very few genes that happen to affect humans' visible phenotype. I don't have any numbers to throw out, but I think that on average you will find more diversity between dogs and wolves than between humans but not by much.
Offspring from a dog X cat cross would be hybrids. A dog/cat chimera would be composed of both cat and dog cells separately. From a successful mating, you only get one cell type that is a hybrid between dog and cat. A good example of chimeras is the technique of grafting separate species of plants together. Both (or all if more than two) of the plants still grow and interact, but their cells are completely different and separate.
T34
Edited by texas34 (05/05/06 06:28 PM)
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EonTan
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: fastfred]
#5617180 - 05/11/06 01:12 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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There are different STRAINS out there and there mating type factors are different from each other. The numbers just designate which factors they are.
Gt might be A1A2B1B2.
Pr might be A3A4B3B4.
These are just generic designations. Just realize that all the factors have to be different to have a succesful mating of monokaryons. A1B1 mates with A2B2 becaszue all the factors are different. A1B1 would also mate with another strains A3B3,A4B4, etc.... Becasue all the factors are different.
Inbreeding occurs at 25%. A1A2B1B2 with A1A2B1B2
Cross breeding with a common factor 75%. A1A2B3B4 with A1A2B1B2
Cross breeding with disimilar factors 100%. A1A2B1B2 with A3A4B3B4
If they are all A1A2B1B2 they are all the same strain.
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fastfred
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: EonTan]
#5631142 - 05/15/06 01:58 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thanks for the post T34. Good catch with respect to my chimera comment. I should have remembered that.
It might not add much to the discussion, but I pulled out my genetics text and looked up the specifics of mules. A mule is a cross between a female horse and a male donkey. A cross between a male horse and a female donkey produces a hinny. A hinny has smaller ears and a bushy tail like a horse. Both mules and hinnies are sterile. A horse has 64 chromosomes and a donkey has 62. A mule has 63. It's chromosomes are not homologous so they don't pair properly during meiosis, making the mule's gametes abnormal and sterile.
Mules aren't all female. Male mules are called Johns, females are called Mollies. Another interesting fact is that not all mules are sterile, or maybe it would be more correct to say that mules are not always sterile. A female mule mating with a male donkey can sometimes produce offspring. Apparently this happens when the mule, by chance, provides only it's horse chromosomes in the egg. So when a female mule mates with a donkey it produces mule, but when it mates with a horse it produces a horse. Of course, this is a very rare event, but it happens. The first case documented with genetic testing was a mule named Krause. They named the offspring "Blue Moon". Since random segregation did not take place Krause and Blue Moon were not only mother and son, but also brother and sister!
Or course, most of you will say "Who cares?", I just remembered the story and bothered to look it up. I thought it was interesting enough to post. It just goes to show that strange things can and do happen.
-FF
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It drinks the alcohol and abstains from the weed or else it gets the hose again. -Chemy
The difference between the substances doesn't matter. This is a war on consciousness, on our right to the very essence of what we are. With no control over that, we have no need to speak of freedom or a free society. -fireseed
"If we are going to have a war on marijuana, the least we can do is pull the sick and the dying off the battlefield." -Neal Levine (MPP)
I find the whole "my drug should be legal but yours should be illegal" mindset disgusting and hypocritical. It's what George Bush and company do when they drink a cocktail and debate the best way to imprison marijuana users. -Diploid
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Feelers
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: fastfred]
#5635095 - 05/15/06 09:24 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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There are heaps of cool/weird animal crosses. Zonkeys, zorses, ligers, tigons, wolphins - haha they are all pretty whacked.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid
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texas34
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: Feelers]
#5640628 - 05/17/06 01:17 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thanks for info on the mules FF and the link Feelers.
Almost all of these hybrids are within genera. It just goes to show that while some species are distinct others can be a bit fuzzy. With fungi, there are complex incompatibility systems that usually keep separate species' hyphae from fusing, and others that determine whether the fused cell survives. Maybe fusing protoplasts or something might work better. It would be pretty large scale since you would have test different individuals of the two species to try and find a combination that works. Then again could work on the first try if your lucky. I'm sure others know more about these types of experiments than I do.
T34
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blujay
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: BlueJay]
#11283668 - 10/20/09 11:51 AM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueJay said:
Most PPL think you can cross two cube strains by inocullating a jar on each side and the myc will meet and produce fruit with most genetics WRONG... the myc just meets and joins into the network. The fruits produced will be either A or B not combined charaistics.....You must go deeper....We all know that spores must combine together to make one strand of myc,some even need as many as four different spores to combine to form one myc strand.... Make your syringe with strain A spores & strain B spores. When germinate some will have both genetics already into that myc.....
Wouldn't you just repeatedly grow mushrooms then, selecting only shrooms with the most noteable split characteristics? If you took a biopsy of one of your AB shrooms and then grew a large amount of myc from that, wouldn't it all be AB>?
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: BlueJay] 1
#11283811 - 10/20/09 12:20 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueJay said:
Most PPL think you can cross two cube strains by inocullating a jar on each side and the myc will meet and produce fruit with most genetics WRONG... the myc just meets and joins into the network. The fruits produced will be either A or B not combined charaistics.....
Wrong. Flat-out wrong. Dikaryotic mycelium is as capable of pairing as monokaryotic mycelium. If mycelium from two strains joins up and forms a single organism, it will have genetics from both 'parents'.
RR
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Cloneufc
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: RogerRabbit]
#11287649 - 10/20/09 08:58 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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Thanks RR! I knew Bluejay was wrong but I didnt want to argue. Disinformation should be a crime. Its mostly due, I think to not understanding what we read.
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master_silly
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: Middleman]
#12146957 - 03/05/10 05:30 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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has anyone had success crossing and making a hybrid?
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: master_silly]
#12226178 - 03/18/10 05:35 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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thumbs up
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Ogla
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: BlueJay]
#12230132 - 03/19/10 10:18 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueJay said:
Make your syringe with strain A spores & strain B spores. When germinate some will have both genetics already into that myc.....
Has anyone tried mixing spores in an lc solution to attempt to cross breed? Same concept of mixing spores into one syringe right? Would the mycelium genetics mix? Would love to cross some panaleous
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organicchemist25
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: BlueJay]
#12364282 - 04/09/10 08:36 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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ive tried every way possible, except the true right way. im def not set up for all of that.
i just say fuck it and split the dose with the two i want to cross.
1.5g of mestizo, 1.5g of gt, and a g of b+ is a excellent combo, as i am very sure other mixes would be quite good as well.
good luck on that and post updates in your successive journey
Edited by organicchemist25 (04/09/10 08:37 PM)
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spdrv52
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: organicchemist25]
#18980116 - 10/15/13 05:49 AM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm gonna revive this bitch, idk if anyone will even notice, and its prolly not even the correct way of doing this. Given the fact that really smart guy says this must be done on Petri dishes; he's right. But I just noculated 20 jars cuz im a nobee.this is my second grow. I grew mazatapec, got about 26g. dry from three flushes of brf.tek off 4 half pint jars. This time I did 10 mazatapec, 9 golden teach and one with two holes with mazatapec and two holes with golden teach. Ima keep eye on it and report if anything special happens.peace and love
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God25
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: strang]
#21750820 - 06/01/15 10:34 PM (9 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have tried it with mixing spore prints of two varieties in a spore syringe. After spawning to bulk sub I cam out with many different patches of phenotypes in the same grow. After printing and regrowing though it seems many revert to one side or the other as apposed to keeping true to the original mushroom type that was printed. I have a background in horticulture and this is also a problem for making new plant varieties. You may cross them but they tend to prefer a set of genes from one parent or the other and revert in a few generations. Getting something noticeably different takes a lot of time, generations, and selection from the offspring. This is why actually creating different strains that continue to retain enough of a difference to be considered a separate strain are hard to create and companies don't come out with new ones every day.
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