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Invisibletheshiftingwalls
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New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company)
    #1641866 - 06/18/03 11:32 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Great new hybridized mushrooms by mating monokaryotic mycelium under microscope. I have put alot of thought into this idea. I have concluded that if you mate mushroom two types of strong producing psilocybin monokaryotic mycelium together (under a microscope). You will get strong psilocybin mushrooms with strong hybrid vigor. I have deeply thought that mycelium mating of P. Azurescens (Hammond) and P. Cyanescens under a microscope. Will result in a hybrid vigor mushroom with a wavy pointy cap with a woody stalk and turns black when handled. Plus strong potency and with both parents being highly visual trips.
This mushroom will be a great combo who seek high yielding mushrooms (outdoors). With very strong psilocybin content that will make any tripper drool...
It will be a revelation in outdoor magic mushroom growing.
But first you have to mate the monokaryotic mycelium together under a microscope (until you get enough for a culture and get prints etc..).

Maybe Workman and the Spore works company could work on this idea with there spores.

This could be a new strain for people who seek the ultimate outdoor growing experience. Someone should really look into trying this project..

All the spore should be purchased at Sporeworks.

Please tell me your thoughts and comments are welcome.


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Invisiblefailbot999
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: theshiftingwalls]
    #1641977 - 06/18/03 12:20 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Im not 100% positive, but isnt that like trying to mate a pine tree with an oak tree (edit: meaning it cant happen)?


Edited by failbot999 (06/18/03 12:22 PM)


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OfflineRaadt
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: theshiftingwalls]
    #1642053 - 06/18/03 12:47 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I'm sure workman and company know how mushrooms mate, and if this was easily possible it would have been done by now, don't you think? Do you really think they needed you to tell them this, and here?


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: Raadt]
    #1642369 - 06/18/03 03:05 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I doubt it could be done by any conventional (ie complementary nutrient difficiency) means because they are different species. This would be something possible by protoplast fusion, though, I would think.

(refer to end of "is this possible" thread.)

--
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Invisiblephobey
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: micro]
    #1643629 - 06/19/03 04:58 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

this can?t be done the azure and pan are to complete different species its like mating a dog with a cat. Crossing 2 cubensis strains should be no prob. or a pan cyan with pan sub should give no probs either i guess never done it myself tho.



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Offlinemesq
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: micro]
    #1643632 - 06/19/03 04:59 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

As far as I was aware I thought the whole reason the two SPECIES were separated is because of the fact that they CANNOT mate..


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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: phobey]
    #1643746 - 06/19/03 06:36 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

he is suggesting hybridizing psilocybe cyanasens and psilocybe azureasens, theres no "pan" about it. thats an entire other genus, an entire other family actually.
psilocybe azureasens and cyanasens are nearly the same speceis, for a long time they were considered variations of the same speceis.
i however beleive this will be a fruitless endevour, these mushrooms often fruit in common beds and still there is no natural hybrid strain, it stands to reason that in a million years it should have happaned already. one could argue that the pure strains over run the hybrids so they get over run and starve, and that isolation of mycelium that you know to have crossed from 2 specie would result in hybridization.... but it wont work, for starters how the hell are you supposed to know what mycelium came from what spore? follow the threads back to the side of the petri dish? its laughable. the two speceis have identical mycelium and can easily find a mycil from one of their own speceis to mate with. maybe if you started with only one spore from each type and assumed that any fruiting would have to be a successful hybrid.
but it just doesnt seem possible


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: mesq]
    #1643942 - 06/19/03 09:05 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

There are some different species that can mate and produce offspring, but their offspring will always be sterile. (Donkey, horse, mule, etc...)

If the same holds through to the mushroom world, would a hybrid even produce fruitbodies?


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: Seuss]
    #1644167 - 06/19/03 11:15 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Maybe. but, paul stamets absolutely denies producing a azure/cubie hybrid.


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Invisibletheshiftingwalls
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: Seuss]
    #1644255 - 06/19/03 11:45 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Mitchnast - Thats the point im trying to get across. Thanks that you made that understood. Psilocybe cyanasens and Psilocybe Azurescens have very identical mycelium. Ya to start with one spore from each species.
But you need to have sterile lab conditions with humindity control, soaked saw dust, week soaked woodchips, temp control, high air exchange, high nitrogen levels, hepa filters and lights. With the right indoor sterile conditions it will give the culture a higher chances of surviving.

I think that research needs to be put into mating.



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Invisiblephobey
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: Mitchnast]
    #1644449 - 06/19/03 12:53 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Mitchnast said:
he is suggesting hybridizing psilocybe cyanasens and psilocybe azureasens, theres no "pan" about it. thats an entire other genus, an entire other family actually.





Oops thought he meant the pan cyan. My mistake!


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: theshiftingwalls]
    #1646700 - 06/20/03 01:47 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

There is a scientific paper out there in which (Gartz) the scientist proved that Ps. cyan's and Ps. azure's do not mate. He applied the same method you suggest (monokaryon mating).

A large part of the definition of species is that two different species are not able to mate and produce viable offspring. There are exceptions. Perhaps it would take 100,000,000,000 matings to what you suggest and others have already tried. And to be verified, both monokaryons must have been sequenced to verify their specie previous to mating. All in all, the work would be very time consuming and expensive.

Right now the means are not readily available to tackle the task you speak of.

In edible mushrooms, two strains of the same specie are often mated to attept to make a better hybrid strain. Even with this method the actual success of a breeding a superior hybrid is very low according to Stamets.

Joshua


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Edited by Joshua (06/20/03 10:48 PM)


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: Joshua]
    #1647516 - 06/20/03 08:47 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

On a genetic level it can be done i'm sure ;-) maybe all that is needed is a trigger of some sort? look at how far genetics has come in the last ten years! Almost nothing is impossible!! we just need to find the key that unlocks the door of possibilities ;-)


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: hyphae]
    #1647572 - 06/20/03 09:26 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

We know that it's possible to build a rocket and fly to Mars, but I doubt you can make it in your back yard with parts from the car dump.


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Invisibletheshiftingwalls
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: zeronio]
    #1647604 - 06/20/03 10:04 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

You all have very good points.
We need genetic research for hybridizing mushrooms.
Some lab should fund an experiment in mushroom genetics.
Studying the genetic code could be the key to unlock this mystery.
The mushroom community needs to find a lab where they can test genetic research.

This will be key in altering with psilocybin genetics.
Maybe one day they can genetically enhance the psilocybin production, fruit size and shape. Then a new chapter would start in mushroom technology.


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: theshiftingwalls]
    #1647727 - 06/20/03 11:24 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Gartz demonstrated that the spores of Azurescens, Cyanescens and Bohemica were not compatible - delineating them into three different entities.
Mitchnast points was that Azurescens and Cyanescen's mycelia looks the same - since isozyme protein analysis and spore compatibility indicated that they were not compatible, the mycelia is inherently different at a genetic level. Therefore creating a hybrid would require the time and effort required to try and stick a microscopic square into a round hole. And this is unlikely to outperform the squares in square-holes and circles in circular holes (figuratively!).
If biology was as simple as sticking two spores from different species together and getting only favourable results we would all have donkey dicks and wings.


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1647730 - 06/20/03 11:28 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Your quite right Mitchnast - there is a school of mycology that placed all members of the Psilocybe genus family Cyanescens into that entity. (not only Azurescens, but Bohemica, Arcana, Subaeruginosa). But spore compatibility - with the exception of Subaeruginosa - and isozyme analysis demonstrated they were seperate entities. ANd they do have consistant microscopic differences too. (although so does cyanescens itself between Europe and America)


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1647768 - 06/20/03 11:58 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Of interest:
http://www.museocivico.rovereto.tn.it/pubblicazioni/Annale12/art11_gartz.pdf

Also from http://www.tacethno.com/info/psilocybe/astoria.txt :

"Complete reproductive barriers have been found be one of the authors (Jochen Gartz) between Psilocybe azurescens and P. bohemica as well as between P. azurescens and Pacific Northwest European collections of P.cyanescens."


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Invisibletheshiftingwalls
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: Anno]
    #1647988 - 06/20/03 01:48 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

What about Panaeolus Cyanescens hybridizing to Panaeolus Subbalteatus?
Is it possible? That would be an interesting strain indeed.

The mushroom community has to create some new potent hybrids for public release.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: theshiftingwalls]
    #1648092 - 06/20/03 02:28 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

>The mushroom community has to create some new potent hybrids for public release.

Why?
Are the mushrooms you can grow nowadays not strong enough for you?
I have a solution: double the dose!


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Invisibletheshiftingwalls
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: Anno]
    #1648230 - 06/20/03 03:14 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Anno - Wouldn't it be great if one mushroom could produce a level 3 trip?
It would be more economical. One flush could produce several trips.
Another reason making new mushroom hybrids, MORE VARIETY TO GROW!

There needs to be a more economical way to grow mushrooms stronger then azures indoors. I suggest working with and altering the Psilocybin producing chromosomes.


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Offlinecomario2
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: theshiftingwalls]
    #1648287 - 06/20/03 03:33 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

sounds interesting. what's the next step?


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: theshiftingwalls]
    #1648544 - 06/20/03 04:31 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

>Anno - Wouldn't it be great if one mushroom could produce a level 3
trip?

Not greater as if you had to take 2 mushrooms.

>It would be more economical.
What for? For the bulk growers who grow for the market? Probably.
For the home grower? Who cares if one has to eat one or 2 mushrooms...

>One flush could produce several trips.
I?m not sure about your flushes, but a flush of a semi big cased straw-dung tray growing P. cubensis produces several dozens of trips....


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OfflineRaadt
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: theshiftingwalls]
    #1648614 - 06/20/03 04:47 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

so do you have any research or equipment that makes you feel you might be capable of doing this? or did you just post to tell others that they should be spending their time doing this? Do you have any ideas to contribute, on how to force seperate species to mate? I think you're better off trying to cultivate species that have not yet been cultivated, than make a new specie to cultivate. It seems a lot simpler, as well. Go figure out how to reliably cultivate azures, would be my suggestion if you'd like potency.


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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: Anno]
    #1648641 - 06/20/03 04:57 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I?m not sure about your flushes, but a flush of a semi big cased straw-dung tray growing P. cubensis produces several dozens of trips.... 





:grin:

I loved that, sorry for the worthless post. Personally I think this whole thread is worthless, kinda like the "do you think this is possible" thread. I especially liked the part where the spore vendors were included. Perhaps he thought they were the only people that could pull this off?


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OfflineRaadt
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: ATWAR]
    #1648761 - 06/20/03 05:41 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

as soon as I can establish it as unproductive, it's going to be closed. There seems to be a decent ammount of discussion so i'm holding off, but if the poster is just posting telling people they should try this.. it'll be closed. People know what they should try, they don't need someone to tell them ;\


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Invisibletheshiftingwalls
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: Raadt]
    #1650843 - 06/21/03 01:35 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Raadt - Im attempting to grow Aruze indoors in the near future.
After I master the art of growing Azures indoors.

All I need is to make some indoor Azure isolates and it will make the strain more productive. After that I will try Cyans and make some isolates... Then I can try to do some hybridization attempts.

I just really need help on what setup I should use to put into cold-shock?


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: theshiftingwalls]
    #1650981 - 06/21/03 02:45 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

???? Cold-shock you could just use a fridge, but you need to keep it at about 50 F to fruit. Maybe use an old refrigerator for this and get it to 50 F?

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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: micro]
    #1653002 - 06/22/03 04:45 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Cold shock? Since Azures and Cyanes fruit in cold conditions, it would be a permanent cold shock throughout the fruiting cycle. On of teh coldest appliances in my house is that big white thing in the kitchen that slowly widens the hole in the ozone layer (reportedly).
Sorry mate, i think microbiologists would not bother trying to do this, so I dont like your chances.
No offence, but this thread aint going no where...


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Invisibletheshiftingwalls
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1653046 - 06/22/03 05:22 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I'm setting up a quite expensive setup like worth $300.
I'm using a mini fridge and messing with the electricity system.
I wont attempt hybrids but isolates.
Isolates will help concentrate potency, make the strain more productive, make it more uniform and more suitable for indoors.
Might take awhile but some ones got to do it.




Edited by theshiftingwalls (06/22/03 05:23 AM)


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: theshiftingwalls]
    #1653097 - 06/22/03 07:06 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Good luck.


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: Anno]
    #1653307 - 06/22/03 11:54 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

a bit off-topic but did you know they have crossed a lion with a tiger ? some closely related species can sometimes cross-breed. some think it's even possible for a chimp-human cross. but any offspring are, of course, sterile.
but as to super-potent shrooms, i think it's a bad idea, it'll just cause even more over-doses, more freak-outs.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: Hippie3]
    #1653387 - 06/22/03 01:09 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

>did you know they have crossed a lion with a tiger
Yes.
More info here: http://www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/hybridisation.html

>some closely related species can sometimes cross-breed.
Also true.
But for the species of mushrooms we are talking about, there have already been cross breeding barriers determined, that being one of the factors defining each as an own species.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: Anno]
    #1654023 - 06/22/03 06:34 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Actually, there is a procedure for crossing strains of fungi. It only takes a flow hood, and working knowlege of agar culture. Everyone has seen how sometimes with a spore print germinated on agar you have 'sectors' or zones that stay separate and don't grow together? Those are incompatable sub strains. Now, take two strains of mycelia and place them both 1/2" apart on the center of the same petri dish. If they stay separate, they are incompatable. If one simply overruns the other, it is simply a stronger strain. BUT, if the two strains grow 'together' and form what is known as a 'zipper' at the point of merging, (this will look like a third zone of mycelia) take a myc transfer from a rhizo that is LEAVING that zone, and you have created a third strain. It works, and the result will not be sterile. You may have to try a hundred times before you get a cross, but this is how it's done in the commercial mushroom industry. No gene splicing, no microscope, etc.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #1654036 - 06/22/03 06:38 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Note above, I said 'strains' and not 'species'. I know this works with strains. It would be nice to see some guys trying to cross species the same way. I have no idea if it would work or not. My guess is probably not, but.....who knows?


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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #1654170 - 06/22/03 07:51 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Well I just  lost 10 minutes of my time reading this thread.
Next time I think twice :frown:

I fully agree on Anno, what is the point of it all? Just take 2 or 3 mushrooms.

IMO Learn how to cultivate a super batch, become a true flush master. This works economical as it saves you time. You can do with less casings and save room and risk. Maybe this all is economical.
Better learn people how to cultivate then spending your time with selling mushrooms.

Well I felt free to put some more words to this wannabe locked post. 


--------------------
"Millions of years of evolution just to .... light up a joint"


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Invisibletheshiftingwalls
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Registered: 06/18/03
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Re: New potent hybrid (Workman and Spore works company) [Re: MeneerCactus]
    #1654673 - 06/22/03 10:44 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Fuck every thing I said forget it...
In time I will show you my azure grow and this dead horse is done...


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