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 dumlovesyou
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Registered: 05/02/01
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 Cloning vs. Multispore. Yeald diffrences? 
#1257499 - 01/29/03 04:15 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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HI there! I read that while doing casings with multispores diffrent strains that develop kind of battle between them.. and only the best win. I always had mushrooms growing only from one part of the casing.
If someone uses the cloning tehnique of spreading the mycelium, is he going to have better yealds? Thanks. (I posted at muhsroom growing also, but got no reply). I read a little bit in Paul Stamets (The Mushr. Cultivator) but he says you can get good yealds out of multispore also. Any input?
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I see trees of green, psylocibe mushrooms too
I see them bloom for me and you
And I think to myself what a wonderful world
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Raadt
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Re: Cloning vs. Multispore. Yeald diffrences? [Re: dumlovesyou]
#1257508 - 01/29/03 04:19 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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cloning offers you an even pinset, and genetics that are the same as the fruit you chose to clone. So yes, generally speaking the yields are better. Not always, though.
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Raadt
-- The information I provide is only information from readings, growing of gourmet mushrooms, and second hand stories--
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Suntzu
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Re: Cloning vs. Multispore. Yeald diffrences? [Re: dumlovesyou]
#1257685 - 01/29/03 05:57 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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If you read a little more, I don't remember if it's TMC or GGMM, he says there is a belief amongst some cultivators in Asia that multispore cultures are more ?vigorous/productive? than isolated genotypes. I also don't remember if this was specific to a species or not, but it's an interesting concept. Apparantly they have the evidence of experience to back this up. I have seen too many beautiful multispore cube flushes here and around to make me think cloning is THE way to myco-porn [and yield].
If you inoculate 'lightly', meaning that if you use around a 1:10 spawn/bulk ratio, or if you do a couple grain-to-grain transfers, many of the weaker mating types will be outcompeted. I have seen this several times in the past. I would make up a grain jar with a multispore inoc., and not be able to do anything with it for months. So to keep it going, I would transfer every so often. The jars kept getting better and better with each transfer; assuming that the strong mating types begin to predominate.
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debianlinux
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Re: Cloning vs. Multispore. Yeald diffrences? [Re: Suntzu]
#1258021 - 01/29/03 07:45 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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VERY interesting concept.
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Anno
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Re: Cloning vs. Multispore. Yeald diffrences? [Re: Suntzu]
#1258225 - 01/29/03 08:48 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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What Stamets writes (in GGMM):
"Theoretically, the germination of spores in mass creates multitudes of strains that will compete with one another for nutrients. This has been long accepted as one of the Ten Commandments of Mushroom Culture. Scientists in China, whose knowledge had not been contaminated by such preconceptions first developed spore-mass inoculation techniques to an industrial level. Only recently have Western mycologist recognized that a large community of spore matings behaves quite differently than paired individuals. San Antonio and Hanners (1984) are some of the first Western mycologists to realize that grain spawn of Oyster mushrooms could be effectively created via spore-mass inoculation.
The most aggressive strains out-race the least aggressive strains to capture the intended habitat.
Recent studies have shown that these aggressive strains overpower and invade the cellular network of competing strains. Dr. Alan Rayner (1988) in studies at the University of Bath described this form of genetic theft as "non-self fusions" between genetically different mycelial systems within the same species. This ability to adapt has made fungi one of the most successful examples of evolution in the biological arena.
Spore-mass fermentation techniques are not yet widely used by North American or European cultivators. Concern for preserving strain stability, lack of experience, equipment, and intellectual conflicts are contributing factors. In mushroom culture, intransigence to new ideas has prevailed, often because the slightest variation from the norm has resulted in expensive failures. Since the health of any economy is based on its diversity, the emergence of organically minded gourmet mushroom growers is creating a fertile intellectual habitat for many innovative technologies."
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Suntzu
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Re: Cloning vs. Multispore. Yeald diffrences? [Re: Anno]
#1258307 - 01/29/03 09:18 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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That would be the passage. I'm pretty sure the gist of what he's getting at is NOT that multispore is BETTER, but that it can achieve similar results to clone selection: predominance of a strong culture in final bulk fruiting----If the expansions are allowed to occur so that the selection can occur. I can understand the industry's reluctance to go back to spores for their crops. It does seem like a LITTLE bit of a genetic crap-shoot if millions of dollars are on the line.
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Raadt
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Re: Cloning vs. Multispore. Yeald diffrences? [Re: Suntzu]
#1258767 - 01/29/03 11:28 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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I have to agree with seeing plenty of VERY nice dense similarly sized fruits from multispore innoculations. I am going to do some experiments with yields of oysters ms/isolate.
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Raadt
-- The information I provide is only information from readings, growing of gourmet mushrooms, and second hand stories--
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 Champion des Champignons
long standing member;)
Registered: 07/26/00
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Re: Cloning vs. Multispore. Yeald diffrences? [Re: Raadt]
#1259499 - 01/29/03 03:31 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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after several months of working exclusively with isolates I can honestly say I have noticed no increase in yields from otherwise identical spawned straw casings. If anything the multispore ones do better. Isolates seem to be good for even, regular flushes, a good thing if you're growing on a commercial scale I suppose. Multispores tend to have several substrains that reach maturity in a staggered fashion, but produce more rapidly, as the various substrains come to maturity one after the other. Given no time restictions, I'm sure isolates will eventually make better use of substrate, and thus produce more fruits in the loong run, but multispores seem to be better for rapid production.
IME.
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hmmm........
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Zen Peddler
Registered: 06/18/01
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Loc: orbit
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It really depends. If your isolating strains of cubensis on agar, rather than trying to get rhizomorphes, i just let them all colonise and begin to develop primordia - this way its pretty easy to find the spore-match that is going to perform the best.
Ive often isolated a few rhizomorphic strains of a mushroom and fruited older cottony ones later, only to find that the cottony ones (pan trops, pan cyans and two cubensis strains) fruited and performed much better.
Generally i dont buy into the exclusivity of rhizomorphic isolation.
As for cloning, technically your just reproducing the genetics of the spore match you had that performed well - in theory it should provide you with similar yields, and often it does - but as Suntzi says - noy always.
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Mycolaureat
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Re: Cloning vs. Multispore. Yeald diffrences? [Re: dumlovesyou]
#1260977 - 01/30/03 06:21 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Nan's Nook forum
Posted: Jan 29 03, 05:00 AM GMT
By Mycota (aka 6T)
Popular belief has it that when you pick an isolate (off agar - usually). That you should pick a strong rhizomorphic type, over a thin cotton like hyphae type of mycelium.
IMHO, that is not true. "Hyphae" & "rhizomorphs" are actually one & the same, in differing form. If healthy, either will serve as an effective isolate. As - one can change into the other, as circumstance requires.
Rhizomorphs serve varied purposes, specifcally for exploratory or migratory needs of fungus. For example, suitable food sources for saprotrophic, wood-decay fungi can be widely separated from each other. To you the distances between bits of old wood on a forest floor may not seem great, perhaps a foot or two. To a fungus the intervening areas of bare wood free soil is like the distance across an barren ocean.
If a fungus has exhausted all the nutrients in one area, it faces a challenge getting to another. Rhizomorphs serve as it's exploratory tool. The outer skin protects the inner hyphae in the traversal of an inhospitable region. Additionally, rhizomorphs grow much more quickly than isolated hyphae, thereby speeding up the exploration for fresh food sources.
Rhizomorphs also have considerable advantages when a fresh nutrient source is found. As there are typically numerous hyphae making up a rhizomorph & when it finds a new nutrient source, the numerous hyphal tips within it will fan out and rapidly colonize the nutrient mass as a diffuse, branched mycelium.
A well-structured rhizomorph is able to transport large amounts of water, nutrients or oxygen back to the mycelium mass, and will easily fuel the rapid expansion of the fungus into new territory. The contrast between a rhizomorph and an individual hypha is similar to the difference between a 8 lane freeway and a narrow, winding road. Or, big teeth, verses tiny teeth.
Mycota (aka 6T)
Edited by Mycota- Jan 29 03, 05:02 AM GMT
View all : Rhyzo Vs Cottony (Big Teeth..........., tiny teeth.........)
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mycofile
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Re: Cloning vs. Multispore. Yeald diffrences? [Re: Mycolaureat]
#1261943 - 01/30/03 11:40 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think if you aren't seeing better results from your isolates, then you need to isolate better strains. A mediocre isolate is going to do worse than a multi-spore, because the multispore will end up being dominated by a pretty good strain. Kick ass isolates outperform multi-spores in all aspects I've ever tested. Granted, simply isolating it doesn't make it kick ass, only genetics can do that, and only trial and error can find it.
As to what 6t says at nansnook, I'm confused. Perhaps I'm getting a little rusty, but I didn't think that a rhizo and a hyphae were necessarily opposites. I thought I hyphae by deffinition was an un-mated, germinated spore: iow, it only has half the genetic material. If so, in cubes, hyphae are incapable of fruiting unless they mate with other hyphae to form dikaryons. These dikaryons can be either rhizo (ropey)or tomentose(cottony). Now, perhaps what he's saying is that rhizo isn't always better than tomentose, and I can't comment on that personally, I never kept tomentose mycelium. But the literature is full of references to tomentose mycelium being harder or more reluctant to fruit, and slower growing.
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"From a certain point of view"
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blackout
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Re: Cloning vs. Multispore. Yeald diffrences? [Re: mycofile]
#1263421 - 01/30/03 08:22 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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will a clone grown originally grown on rice do as well when grown on rye?
would it be better to start liquid broth from a syringe in a broth of the substrate it is going to end up on? like growing in a rye flour "honey water" if planning on growing on rye
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Anonymous
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Re: Cloning vs. Multispore. Yeald diffrences? [Re: dumlovesyou]
#1263522 - 01/30/03 09:06 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Start a few (or more) different multispore batches. When the batches fruit take tissue from the individual shrooms that exhibit favorable traits (i.e. size). Culture the gathered tissue on agar. Then fruit on your choice of substrate.
Isn't that how one is supposed to achive a better fungs?
I'm nobody.
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Zen Peddler
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
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Re: Cloning vs. Multispore. Yeald diffrences? [Re: mycofile]
#1263776 - 01/30/03 10:53 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Its my understanding that a hyphae is unmated as well. Maybe the post is trying to suggest that tomentose and rhizomorphic mycelia are one and the same and there are some interesting points there.
But as Stamets suggests, and as the post explains, as rhizomorphic mycelia can funnel (bad wording but its late) larger amounts of moisture and nutrients to and fro, this is why is supports a better fruiting capability. SO that it can convay required nutrients or moisture.
In short I agree with mycofile. The best yields ive ever had were from good isolates of a mushroom - with cubensis and shemiji in particular. These were not necessarily rhizomorphic dikaryons, as i kept all isolates on plates until fully colonised and checked fruiting capabilities.
My results tend to suggest that on agar rhizomorphic mycelia is faster, but in substrate medium it can often be the same or slower than some isolates of tomentose.
Lastly with panaeolus mycelia as rhizomorphes generally dont appear, ive gone for linear mycelia only to be very dissappointed, then fruited cottony and got huge results.
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dr4g0n
sleeps withdragons
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Re: Cloning vs. Multispore. Yeald diffrences? [Re: Zen Peddler]
#1264380 - 01/31/03 04:36 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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personally i would assume the yield is the same, however the speed would be a lot faster.
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Anonymous
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Re: Cloning vs. Multispore. Yeald diffrences? [Re: mycofile]
#1265650 - 01/31/03 11:08 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hyphae are just the filamentous threads that make up the mycelium. They can be uninucleate in the case of a germinated cubensis spore, or can be Binucleate, or multinucleate in the case of the Dikaryon.
Mycelium can be Tomentose, linear, rhizo, etc....
Rhizos are better at transport and searching. The finer mycelium is better at FEEDING. Think of the Finer mycelium as feeder roots on a plant, and the Rhizos as the larger roots.
All forms the mycelium expresses will fruit in a fertile Dikaryon.
Panaeolus do form rhizos when they begin to fruit. I agree the cottony mycelium is the better sector to isolate with pans. This cottony mycelium will eventually form rhizomorphic mycelium that seems to attach various groups of fruits to a general location within the mycelial colony. You can see little networks of rhizos scattered across the surface of the casing layer during fruit maturation.
Older cultures of Many strains of the Copelandia/panaeolus complex will exhibit this rhizo growth across the surface of the mycelial colony, usually associated with either pins forming, or the Aggegates(sclerotia). But as a source of Isolation, GO WITH THE COTTONY stuff in the PANS.
If the Strain of Cubensis you are working with Expresses Extremely vigourous Rhizomorphic Growth, I suggest you use these Sectors for Isolation. If you Strain doesn't make up it's mind as easily, and expresses several types of mycelium on Agar, Go with the one that pins the best on AGAR.
All forms of Mycelium are interchangable. Rhizos can be tomentose, tomentose can become rhizo, etc... When Isolating cubensis, you can get a pure culture faster by isolating the Rhizo sectors. It is harder for several substrains to be mistaken for a single Rhizo sector. It is easier to isolate several substrains at once, when grabbing a Tomentose sector from a multispore plate.
An example of a Vigourous Rhizo strain is Puerto Rican. If you isolate tomentose, you are essentially just isolating several Rhizo substrains that haven't been able to work themselves out. Eventually, they will and you will end up with a majority of RHIZO substrains.
Every B+ I have isolated always seems to be a fusion of 3/4 Rhizo, with a 1/4 tail of cottony. I can't seem to get rid of the cottony tail, no matter how many times I grab a Rhizo wedge. It almost looks like TWO different Strains are coexisting as a single Strain.
If you have the time and the will, isolate and test several of each type of mycelium. Your own experience will be your ultimate guide.
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Zen Peddler
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
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Re: Cloning vs. Multispore. Yeald diffrences? [Re: ]
#1266001 - 01/31/03 01:39 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Those rhizos are visible here:
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Mycolaureat
mycophyle
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Re: Cloning vs. Multispore. Yeald diffrences? [Re: dumlovesyou]
#1273519 - 02/03/03 07:51 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Conclusion ?
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dumlovesyou
retired shroomer
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Re: Cloning vs. Multispore. Yeald diffrences? [Re: Mycolaureat]
#1276719 - 02/04/03 05:01 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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HMmm..Difficult for me to give a conclusion. It seems that the thread got really big.
What I understood is that I have to do it myself to find out.  But all in all, it seems like no big diffrences between the two types. Though I have a feeling agar is a must.(at least for the mycological knowledge):)
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I see trees of green, psylocibe mushrooms too
I see them bloom for me and you
And I think to myself what a wonderful world
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Azmodeus
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Re: Cloning vs. Multispore. Yeald diffrences? [Re: Mycolaureat]
#1276776 - 02/04/03 05:19 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hey! Mycolaureat.....
Wazzup!!!!
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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.
Lest we forget. "
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Anonymous
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Re: Cloning vs. Multispore. Yeald diffrences? [Re: dumlovesyou]
#1278222 - 02/04/03 12:36 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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There is a difference.
Cloning assures using a KNOWN producer at the EXACT ENVIRONMENT you are growing in. THIS IS A SUBSTANTIAL DIFFERENCE in application.
Yields CAN increase due to the application of this PRINCIPLE. Edit. Yields are never going to be greater then the Best Substrain isolated from a multitude of substrains tested in your EXACT ENVIRONMENT. Yields ARE never going to be greater then the potential of the BEST SUBSTRAIN in your environment.
Both methods work, and Multispore can and will produce HIGH YIELDS, but CONSISTENCY OF HIGH YIELDS in a constant environment will be GREATER with a known substrain isolated and tested from MANY substrains. When you multispore, Which ever substrains get a STRONG foothold first on the substrate are going to make up the majority of the Mycelial colony. The ones that make up that majority do the majority of the fruiting, those are NOT NECCESSARILY the best ones for your environment. YOU ARE ROLLING THe DICE. Substrains interact, and rewire eachother, but the notion that a VERY GOOD SUBSTRAIN for your environment that formed LATER then the other Multitudes that formed is going to somehow outcompete the ALREADY RAPIDLY GROWING multitude of Substrains is Statistically SMALL.
If you are Getting Equal yields from your isolates and your Multispore trays, then YOU have not ISOLATED enough Substrains for testing in your environment. Try isolating a 100-1000 substrains from each Strain, test them all, and then make a determination.
The poor Isolate is not going to ouperform the Group of Good Matches resulting from a multispore.
FOR ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES this argument is REDICULOUS, because NO-ONE here is Spending that kind of money to ISOLATE that many substrains to even make the statement. And in the end, The YIELD potential of this BEST ISOLATE is probably not going to be SIGNIFICANT enough to make the effort worth while. The mushroom mass is only able to convert so much of the substrate into fruits, this is a range, and the difference between the Average Substrain and the BEST one, is not much.
Substrate supplementation will get you Higher yields without all the fuss.
Most of the breeding on shrooms is done to isolate Substrains that maintain traits beneficial to their earliness,Co2 sensitivity, harvesting considerations, shelf life, and Appearance.
Mushrooms are like any living thing that reproduces, they shuffle their DNA to guarentee Diversity of Genetics to be able to Live in changing environments. To assume that one substrain will not perform better in a certain environment would be to ignore Nature.
The Realization that a Group of substrains will perform ALMOST as good as that one BEST substrain, is to EMBRACE the kindness of the creator. " Everyone is fighting to get to the top, but tell me how far is it from the bottom".
If yield is your ultimate objective, GO BULK. If you are into Viewing the diversity of individuals within the Masses, do ISOLATES. All things are created equal, they just perform better in different circumstances.
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Zen Peddler
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
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Re: Cloning vs. Multispore. Yeald diffrences? [Re: ]
#1287119 - 02/07/03 12:05 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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My hats off to you Teonan as always! Id love you to write something on Psilocybe indentification for my up-coming website on australian fungi.
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dumlovesyou
retired shroomer
Registered: 05/02/01
Posts: 688
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Re: Cloning vs. Multispore. Yeald diffrences? [Re: ]  1
#1327427 - 02/22/03 08:18 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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COOL!! Thanks for the answer! I understood better what is all about. Seems like it needs constant growing conditions to have cool flushes from cloning. I guess that If I clone a a big mush from a high humidity enviorment and then use it in a low humidity one, I won't get a good yeld. I hope this is it.
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I see trees of green, psylocibe mushrooms too
I see them bloom for me and you
And I think to myself what a wonderful world
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