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OfflinetrendalM
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Relative? or Absolute?
    #3864020 - 03/03/05 07:52 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Are there any absolutes? Or is everything relative?

Examples?
What do you think?
You may choose only one
Everything is relative
Some things relative/some things absolute
Everything is absolute


Votes accepted from (03/03/05 07:51 PM) to (No end specified)
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll



--------------------
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And every line believed
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Logic is a threat
Reason searched and seized


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: trendal]
    #3864083 - 03/03/05 08:01 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Absolute relativity.

Absolutely knowing that the only absolution is the lack of knowing anything absolute beyond what we provide and assert as absolute. Therefor giving it a piece of relativity.

Edit:
Ideals by nature are absolute. Subjective in their determination though. "wherever we go their where are" :lol: absolution for ya (relatively)


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/03/05 08:09 PM)


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Invisibleninjapixie
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: trendal]
    #3864090 - 03/03/05 08:01 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Everything is relative is the only absolute.


--------------------
Put that monkey back in the oven.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: ninjapixie]
    #3864149 - 03/03/05 08:14 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

its relative absolutes!? :wink:


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: Gomp]
    #3864196 - 03/03/05 08:24 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

nope, it only "goes one way" unlike reincarnation. :lol: relative absolutes are still only absolutely relative.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/03/05 08:30 PM)


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3864270 - 03/03/05 08:37 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

That's not true. There are absolute's, but they are part of defined systems.

If you take 2 + 2 = 4, and you use the well defined natural number system, there is no combating that. You can't say "I don't believe it's 4" because it IS 4. There are rules defining that system and 2 + 2 = 4 is part of that system. There are no ifs, ands or buts.

But most things are relative. Almost all things are. Gravity, while constant, might not be absolutely defined. It won't go away but it might get redefined in a big, big way some 100 years from now. Gravity itself is absolute but our understanding of it is defenitely relative.


--------------------
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OfflineIrishNation
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3864293 - 03/03/05 08:41 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Absolutes are only imposed when people don't have time to fully look at a situation. A person that can see relatively, to me anyway, is the sign of a person who is truely knowledgeable and open minded. People don't like to take time to find out about stuff....wouldn't you agree that it's much more easier to make generalizations?


"All Killings are Bad" "All Catholics are closed minded" "All drug users are dumb stimulous junkies"


Life would be so much easier if their were absolutes. There would be no grey, just pretty checkerboard patterns of black and white.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: freddurgan]
    #3864299 - 03/03/05 08:42 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

freddurgan said:
That's not true. There are absolute's, but they are part of defined systems.

If you take 2 + 2 = 4, and you use the well defined natural number system, there is no combating that. You can't say "I don't believe it's 4" because it IS 4. There are rules defining that system and 2 + 2 = 4 is part of that system. There are no ifs, ands or buts.

But most things are relative. Almost all things are. Gravity, while constant, might not be absolutely defined. It won't go away but it might get redefined in a big, big way some 100 years from now. Gravity itself is absolute but our understanding of it is defenitely relative.




I agree to an extent in regards to gravity... but as far as the numbering system goes, you could alternatively say that 4+ 7 = 8 and still have it be equally valid. True, but in that situation you can make anything absolute provided you define it to the degree where it's absolute in a given context (meaning it's not absolute in an actual context, hence it's relativity). You're implying that everything is of an absolute nature which it is not, nor will it ever be. One can easily assign different parameters to a numbering system and have it be equally as valid. Rules are relative to the parameters and the context, hence further throwing off the ideal of absolution. It is our relative agreement within the confines of the system we're analyzing which makes it appear as an absolution... but it's all relative. Apply the same notion to gravity, and you'll get what I'm saying.

Edit:
We tend to over exagerate our understanding of the system to the extent that we assign properties to gravity which do not exist, therefor giving it a subjective (hence relative notion). When one applies the fundamentals and dynamics of the possibility and the concept of an electrical universe where the sun is sending out a little bit more energy then "light" e.g. the sun as a capacitor and the planetary interactions seen as a large electrical operation (can provide links if you wish). You'll see that our "true absolution" is only further abstracted. And that gravity isn't playing as great a role as it is said to be, therefore blowing "absolution" out of the water.

Show me a perfect circle, with perfect borders, edges, and boundaries, and I'll show you something that is made with the ideals of Man.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/03/05 11:08 PM)


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Relative? (and/or) Absolute? --- Perception? (and/or) Choice? [Re: trendal]
    #3865551 - 03/04/05 12:46 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Relative? (and/or) Absolute? --- Perception? (and/or) Choice? (of Relative Absolutism?)


As with EVERYHTING, "Absolute" can and does change, at any given point (moment) in time based on the perception of the absoluteness relative to one's chosen perception....  It is all encompassing, coming and going, effect and cause causing effect within an encompassing relative perception of one's absolutism - again based on one's chosen perception of relative absolutism.... 



Vantage Point....

The world IS....  (To one's relative perception thru awareness and consciousness....)
The world is FLAT....  (To one's relative perception of the world standing on a boat in the middle of an ocean....)
The world SPHERICAL....  (To one's relative perception of the world - from away from the world....)
The world is NOT....  (To a person's perception in a different state of consciousness, or lack thereof....)

So, the question would be, "What IS the World, and how does one CHOOSE to perceive it...?"

Yes, all absolutes AND all relative (and perhaps all relavent -this too based on one's choice of relative perception), and all TRUE, but all *seemingly* in motion relative to one's perception of MOTION of eMotionALLmotion -- a total and complete relative choice of encompassing perception, as it were.... 



MATH....

*Most* perceptions of math being in base ten as an absolute, (again, a choice) but is relative to one's perception of an absolute knowledge based on one's perceived knowledge and education therein....  If you choose to learn another absolute, then the original absolute is no longer THE only absolute, and is now relative to perception as a choice as to what one would perceive as absolute....  Making it a relative absolute, but not as fact, unless but for a moment - before that moment fades from one's relative perception....

So in summary, there are many fluid absolutes in motion that are relative and constantly changing to one's relative perception, and a choice to deem it absolute perception --as perceived based on choice of one's relative knowledge....  Ultimately all relative and absolutes are based on one's choice of perception....  ABSOLUTELY....!

As choice, perception, and choice of relative (or absolute?) vantage point to be key (but not fact)....



Physical Death....

The only Absolute that I perceive, is physical death, as it is not one's perceivable choice....  :shocked: 

Or is it....?
    :confused:





Am I WHITE , or are you WRONG....!   Am I read, or YOU are red...!  :grin:

big fun, --OR-- LITTLE FUN....?

Fun Fun Fun....!  Fun Fun Fun....!
....  Fun Fun Fun....!  Fun Fun Fun....!
Fun Fun Fun....!  Fun Fun Fun....!
....  Fun Fun Fun....!  Fun Fun Fun....!
Fun Fun Fun....!  Fun Fun Fun....!
....  Fun Fun Fun....!  Fun Fun Fun....!

----OR----

It's ALL fun, No...?



ME....


:sun:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Relative? (and/or) Absolute? --- Perception? (and/or) Choice? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3865676 - 03/04/05 01:12 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

:lol: Absolutely hilarious... Relative to me.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: freddurgan]
    #3865686 - 03/04/05 01:16 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

freddurgan said:
That's not true. There are absolute's, but they are part of defined systems.

If you take 2 + 2 = 4, and you use the well defined natural number system, there is no combating that. You can't say "I don't believe it's 4" because it IS 4. There are rules defining that system and 2 + 2 = 4 is part of that system. There are no ifs, ands or buts.

But most things are relative. Almost all things are. Gravity, while constant, might not be absolutely defined. It won't go away but it might get redefined in a big, big way some 100 years from now. Gravity  itself is absolute but our understanding of it is definitely relative.




Just for FUN, I say 2+2 gives me 96.

What I am adding is relative here. 2 cases plus 2 cases equals 96 cans.

I realize 2 cases plus 2 cases equal 4 cases and that is an absolute. Relative to my party planning situation 2 cases plus 2 cases giving me 96 cans is also an absolute.

Relative to my party planning, I can say 2 of something plus 2 of something gives me 96 of something and be absolutely correct in that.

Is there something absolutely something no ifs ands or buts?

I dunno, depends on how you look at this.

enter twilight zone music...........

Fun Topic to play with Tren! :thumbup:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: Gomp]
    #3865720 - 03/04/05 01:25 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Gomp said:
its relative absolutes!? :wink:




My last example would fall under this here what gomp said.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: trendal]
    #3865753 - 03/04/05 01:34 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"For eternally and always there has been only now, one and the same now; the present is the only thing that has no end."



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3865770 - 03/04/05 01:38 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Who's present though? I could present my image, and my reference of the present in terms of past as much as I want ... but I can't thumb down the present to a present time, only to a present notion of an event. I think I'm absolutely writing this in the present. But when I post this I realize it was all in the past.

To what degree do we give absolution to the present time... as to me, it has already "past" well before I concieved such an odd notion of writing about the present being the past, and at the present time I feel rather odd. But that has all "past" as I hit "Continue".

Edit: fixed the past presently. Or did I.... :lol:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/04/05 01:54 AM)


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3865826 - 03/04/05 02:02 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I think I'm absolutely writing this in the present. But when I post this I realize it was all in the past.

Indeed it was all in the past.
One must understand that the intellect itself is a tool-of-thought built upon an intricate structure of memetics and genetics, and works completely or partially in psychological-time, ie past or projective future ? not in the actual Here-Now dimension.

Therefore, when one becomes truly still & silent, they let go of all history and completely end psychological time [even if only for a brief, ephemeral moment]. What is left, is the simple timeless awareness that is the Ground from which all knowledge and experience rises from... and ultimately, comes back down to.



It seems that most people hardly realize this, if even at all, because we've identified ourselves with our body, mind and personality, imagining these objects to constitute our real "self." and we then spend our entire lives to defend, protect, and prolong what is just an illusion.


Keep On Dancing... :smile:


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3865834 - 03/04/05 02:06 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Are you absolutely certain of this? Or just Relatively certain of the potential of your statment?

Leaving with that for the night... I'm absolutely tired. (Found my relative absolution again :lol:)


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3866006 - 03/04/05 03:00 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I can say 2 of something plus 2 of something gives me 96 of something

more specifically, 96 of something else

but yeah, you're right and that's cool.

absolutes exist relative to each other. so, each thing is relative, but everything is absolute.


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Invisiblefearfect
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3866545 - 03/04/05 05:46 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"I can say 2 of something plus 2 of something gives me 96 of something"

that is just a combination of words, it doesn't make sense. math is something that the universe holds absolutely and it cannot be broken. 2 + 2 has always and will always equal 4. you can believe what you will about the validity of 2 + 2 equaling 4 but that doesn't change it. There are some absolute truths, and those truths are what govern and allow us to exist. Beyond that, everything else is relative.

in your example where 2 cases equals 96 cans, the idea behind the words is that 48 cans + 48 cans still equals 96 cans.

spoken languages are terrible languages for logic reasoning.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: trendal]
    #3866555 - 03/04/05 05:53 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I have absolutely no idea.


--------------------


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: trendal]
    #3866573 - 03/04/05 06:08 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I think that there are absolutes, but we can't necessarily know them 100%. I suspect that P=P is absolutely and necessarily true. However, I cannot know that (in the very strictest definition of the word "know") because I am human, and I may have a lapse of judgement every time I see the proposition P=P.

So I do believe in absolutes. I think it is highly likely that some things are absolutely true. In the everyday usage of the word "know", I know that they are absolutely true for all cases. In the strictest way, though, I don't know.


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