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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Reality is your best friend
    #3951491 - 03/22/05 12:13 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Everyone has imaginary ideas of himself as being this or
that sort of person. And you can be sure that the images are
highly complimentary! But since they are purely imaginary,
they are highly sensitive to assault by reality.


Reality helps pretenders who want to stop pretending. This is a
world of pretense. You have noticed this. People pretend they
are not scared, pretend they are not hurt, pretend they are not
nervous. Wearing masks of strength and confidence to impress
people, they cry inside. Pretense is harmful and unnecessary.
It fills space that should be filled with Reality. Wherever you
see your own pretense, drop it. Its pain will vanish.

~Vernon Howard [edited by SM]



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3951916 - 03/22/05 01:43 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Wow, this Vernon man sure is one sided and needs a reality check of his own. I can easily say that 9 out of 10 people I know have imaginary ideas about themselves and let me tell you they are not complimentary.

I swear, low self image and esteem is epidemic these days. The media and Hollywood paints all of these prefect pictures no ones reality can measure up to and people think they are sub par in comparison.

If I had a quarter for every time I heard someone whine from insecurity and fear about how they are not good enough at or for this or that and about how they are doing this and that wrong I'd be worth millions.

These are people who are doing very well and fine jobs within their endeavors comparatively speaking and are quite able from my view, yet they don't see themselves that way and are to afraid to realize their actual potential and opt to get down on themselves for some reason. They really seem to be struggling with low self image issues.

Granted, some people may have self images that exceed the reality of their living potential or actuality to flatter themselves, but most I encounter have self images that are set well below the actuality of their living potential. I'm personally tiring of people getting down on themselves and wish they would step up to their truer reality That's better then they think it is.

Really, I think low self esteems and insecurities are epidemic in America and rarely do I come across self image exaggerated over confident types.

Maybes it's become politically correct to put oneself down or something. Maybe its egoically safer to be insecure for these types. You can't get knocked down or fall if you hang low. I think it became the trendy cool thing to do with the grunge movement of the 90s. :lol:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3951925 - 03/22/05 01:46 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: Silversoul]
    #3952371 - 03/22/05 06:09 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

when I think of reality
it usually has nothing to do with me


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OfflineDelusion_of_Self
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3952407 - 03/22/05 07:12 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Reality is far beyond our senses. Far beyond our mind. Far our beyound imagination. You do not need to imagine since it does not need to be created, it does not depend on your perception to be real.

The reality we experience daily is subjective, it is constructed in our minds. It is individual. We might interpret it in similar ways because we have learned to do so, but what is individual is not true to all.

Now who is your best friend?


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"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar


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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3952411 - 03/22/05 07:17 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

reality does not exist. it's a construction that holds our minds together and allows our interaction with the world and others. in itself it is nothing, maya, the illusion.


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OfflineDelusion_of_Self
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: a_h_w]
    #3952417 - 03/22/05 07:28 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Then why are you proving it does not exists? If this is just your imagination...


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"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar


Edited by Delusion_of_Self (03/22/05 07:29 AM)


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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3952422 - 03/22/05 07:43 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I'm not proving nothing and illusion is not imagination. illusion is created through the sense sphere. and yes in our minds an imagined thing can be as real as anything else in the world.
reality as our view and interpretation of the world cannot be taken too seriously.


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OfflineDelusion_of_Self
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3952442 - 03/22/05 08:08 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

You seem to contradict yourself. You say it does not exists, then you give an explanation why. You are proving your assumption by reasoning.


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"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar


Edited by Delusion_of_Self (03/22/05 08:09 AM)


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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3952470 - 03/22/05 08:55 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

like I've said before, I'm not proving anything here. and unless you explain yourself better, I will never understand where you're getting at. my statements, taken seriously or not, are quite easy to figure out, yours on the other hand, remain a mystery to me. maybe you should prove your assumptions by reasoning.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3953929 - 03/22/05 03:54 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
when I think of reality
it usually has nothing to do with me




That's another interesting take on this. Remove yourself from the equation and then what is there? Now, when you want to enter the equation as another number, what number do you come in as? Do you come in as a zero and then values are added along the way? Who is the giver of these self values?

Do you let the other numbers give you your value or do you give yourself your own value within the equation? According to Vern, he is suggesting that "your best friend reality" will somehow tell you what you really are within it" Does this mean then that you get to tell other zeros entering the equation what value they are?

What if I think you're really a 5 and someone else thinks your really a 10 and another thinks you're really a 3? Does that mean anything to you? Should it mean anything to you? Is the average of them your real value making you a 6? What if you think you are a 2 or an 8? If you are in 8 in your mind and view, should you pretend to be 6 because your best friend reality says that's what real about you?

What is real when it comes to the image we hold of ourselves? How do you judge it and who judges it? 

Am I a Cindy, wife of Todd, mother of Arielle or a complex biological form of chemicals and elements? What does my best friend reality think I am.  What image should I hold of myself to be the real with myself?

Am I a lousy wife and mother or a good wife and mother? Do I determine this or does my husband and daughter or my mother father comparing me to his wife and mom? Who is this reality guy anyway because according to Vern, he knows what image of me is the real one I should hold. How do I find him?

Isn't it I who chooses what I want to be through imagining ideals and then pretend being what that is to me until I become it for real? When does it shift from being pretense to the real thing. When am I a person pretending being a mom until I become a real mom. Whats the difference?

As a wife and mother I am playing a role in someones life. Playing roles requires play acting, requires pretending, requires putting on a pretense of what a wife and mother really is. What is a wife and mother really? Every real culture in our reality has a different image of it. Which is the real one I should use as my measure to make sure I am not living in false self flattery? Who determines this?

It needs to be determined before I can even know if the image I have of myself as a wife and mother is over imagined to flatter myself or not? If I am scared that I am doing a bad job playing those roles, should I get real and appear as if I haven't a clue of what I am doing? Do you think myself, husband and daughter would prefer a self confident wife and mother who acts as if she knows what she is doing and doing it well or one that is a basket case of self doubt, worry and insecurity? (hypothetical)

If myself, my husband and daughter think I am doing a good job and I hold this self flattering image of myself as a result but my family friends and community think I am doing a bad job because I am not appearing as the image they hold of a good wife and mother, which is the real image I should be getting real with?

What if society holds an image that a real and good  wife wears makeup everyday to look really beautiful for her husband? What if my husband thinks I really look better without it? What if I really don't care and think I look horrible with or without it? Which is the real image of me I should be getting real with to be in true reality? How I actually look of course. And how is that?

Does reality tell us whats real or do we tell ourselves and each other what we really think something really is? What is it really? What is the difference? Isn't reality "made up" of and by us?

We can look to the natural world as the closest we can come I suppose. It would be natural for me to lay down with any guy that makes me hot, wouldn't it? But then, what of my self image as a wife? Am I being a good wife or a bad wife or just a real and honest wife? If I don't do it, am I just pretending to be a wife to flatter myself as being a good wife?

What would my husband say if I said to him, "Honey, Vern Howard says I need to stop pretending to be something I am not to flatter myself and my marriage. He says I should get real with my true feelings and I feel really horney for that guy over there so I am just going to go do him to keep it real and then you and I can go catch a bite to eat"

My "real" ass would be suffering through divorce court, single parenthood, finding a job and worst of all living a life without my best friend and romantic lover there to share it with me.

As a mother, it would be natural for me to nurse my child anywhere any time for as long as it likes. If I do keep it real with my natural feelings not as to create a false and flattering self image as a mother, am I an obscene and offensive perverted mother for whipping my boobs out in public for my 5 year old son to suck on?
Naturalist would call this the image of a good wholesome mom. Society (consensus reality) would call this the image of a bad freakish mom.

Which is the true reality I would measure my sense of real motherly image to to ease any pain of false pretense I may be deluding myself with?

If my husband pretends to have respect and admiration for his bosses because he flatters himself as being a hot shot employee and wants to portray that false image to get ahead, but really thinks his bosses are morons who have their heads up their asses, should he just cut the pretenses and get real with them? Will Vern Howard give him a job when he gets fired?

Would my husbands "best friend named reality", set him up to get fired from his job to ease his pain? What is his best friend reality going to do next to ease his pain of unemployment and loss of financial income?

To ease his pain, he is going to have to get real in that, he is going to have to pretend to be a great employee and flatter the shit out of himself if he is to get hired making the same money again. This is reality! Most would say that is the true reality of the world we live in.

Sure, he can make it up and say, "Because I think I know how to run such a company best and to stay real with myself so I can quit pretending to respect people I don't, I will be my own boss."

Is his best friend reality going to give him a real business to run? He once took reality into his own hands and created his own and it was the most sufferable experience of his life being his own boss. He found that you end up working for customers, employees and suppliers who are morons with their heads up their asses. He was free to be real with people whose professional ethics he didn't respect alright and lived with his face red on high boil for 3 years.

His blood pressure is much healthier and he is happier living in pretense again. Pretense can be like a placebo for the real deal if you believe in it.

Reality gives us nothing but the planet and weather and opportunities to take and make of it and ourselves in reference to it what we will. Reality is a no thing until we take from its raw materials and make it into something we call real.  We do this by imagining ideals and then we put on the pre-tending to become them.

Most of what we do in false pretense and creating self flattering images is to keep ourselves from being thrown into a reality of suffering when you think about it. 

Vern Howard may be giving us advice to find the greatest sense of the true self to ease the sufferings of false pre-tense, but the funny thing is, that we have to get real with what that would mean to reality as we know it. Doing so wold be the kiss into suffering.

Like I am going to tell my mom who thinks she is a great cook, in her self image that her cooking sucks so she can get real with herself and ease her pain. She feels good with her cooking abilities and is in no suffering because of them. My telling her I think they really suck so she can have a more real self image, can only cause her suffering. What is Mr. Vern thinking here?

I think , reality as we know it is one giant false pretense. To use it as a measure of how we are being false is ridiculous for that reason, like the blind leading the blind it is.

You know what is real? Our need to source food, water, breathable air and shelter from extreme weather elements or else we will suffer and die. Everything revolved around that and beyond that is fluff and stuff we made up to meet and exceed those needs based on our natural ability to image ideas and ideals and to act as if we know what we are doing in the process. Its pretty darn enjoyable and fullfilling too once you get the hang of it.

Everyone is pretending to be something beyond a biological form made up of chemicals and elements that requires food, water air and shelter to survive. Its because of our ability to imagine ideals and put on pretenses that we not only survive but thrive.

As long as you are getting food water, shelter and breathable air, you have no real reason to be suffering. That's made up too!

Why couldn't Vern just say, "Your best friend reality is made up by YOU and the people around you" So, make one up that cares for, nurtures and supports you and makes you feel good. Consider that , because you and the people around you make it up, any suffering you and others experience is just made up by yourselves and you can make it up into something else more pleasant if you wish any time you want by playing pretend on the way to really becoming it?

My husband made his bosses up into morons he could have no professional respect for. Why couldn't he make them up into brilliant business men who he could respect? Whats the real truth of their professional projective imaging anyway? My husband chooses to make them up into real morons and so he suffers working for the morons he created in his reality. So be it.

Isn't this Vern Howard guys philosophies the one swami most resonates with? I am beginning to understand swami better now and why he and I clash.  :tongue:

Hey swami, ya know why spirituality hasn't been serving you as you say? You picked the wrong philosopher guru to follow. This guy is teaching people that there is ONE TRUE SET reality for everyone to measure their "authenticity by" to keep from self delusion and suffering.  What a crock of Bull Dung!

If anyone choosing to make this imaginary best friend called reality into some real, I'll tell you what this best friend is going to do to you. It will send you a bunch of mixxed messages about yourself and the world confusing you into insufferable hell until you start telling it what its going to be for you and what you are going to be within in it.

It will stab you in the back until you learn to stop trusting and listening to it and start trusting and listening to yourself.

It will leave you to rot when the chips are down like a fair weather "best friend" until you learn to start being there for yourself and how to command the weather in your own life. The forcast is bright warm and sunny in mine everyday!

When you realize that your best friend reality is YOU and what you make of it by what you make of yourself, then you'll start cooking up delicious realities like a master chef! :thumbup:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3959858 - 03/23/05 03:38 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Wow, this Vernon man sure is one sided and needs a reality check of his own. I can easily say that 9 out of 10 people I know have imaginary ideas about themselves and let me tell you they are not complimentary.

This statement implies little to no consideration was taken into other possible [and more realistic] interpretations. [And that you missed the point, entirely.]
If you know who Vernon Howard is ? a teacher ? then I find it even more puzzling [that is, with certain base assumptions in regards to your intellect] that you would, in all honesty, think that Vernon is "one-sided and needs a reality check".
If this is the case, then could you please show us why you ignored all other likely possibilities and only focused on the one that you have?

It is a bit odd imagining the rationale, reasoning, and logic that you used [assuming you did use such tools of thought, after all, it would be a bit unfair to place a permanent label of nescience on the on-going process that you are].
?Wow, Vernon must be that stupid, because I couldn?t possibly conceive of any other possibility ? never-mind that there may be some misunderstanding, or that the messenger simply didn?t provide more details ? that?s just too mundane and rational of a route. I think I will just choose the possibility that offers more entertainment value?. La la la.?

I will wait for the appropriate question from you that you could?ve asked at first, to rectify your confusion in regards to the Vernon quote.

Moving along to your second post?

What is real when it comes to the image we hold of ourselves? How do you judge it and who judges it?

The reality of these images we hold of ourselves are illusory, as they are conjured representations of a true aspect of ourselves that exists without need for definition. No one is there to judge these images because the judge and the judgment are also illusory images produced by the mind.

Am I a Cindy, wife of Todd, mother of Arielle or a complex biological form of chemicals and elements?

Why the need for such a sophomoric dichotomy?

What image should I hold of myself to be the real with myself?

Instead of supporting an illusory image, allow reality to support you, not your self-held image of yourself, as well as your emotion-backed addictions to security, sensation, or power, not to mention your demands of reality [as if you are in any position to demand anything of the way reality naturally unfolds].

Am I a lousy wife and mother or a good wife and mother? Do I determine this or does my husband and daughter or my mother father comparing me to his wife and mom?

Ultimately, only you verify the quality of your mother/wife functions. Is your child well clothed, fed and cared for? Is your husband well supported and cared for? Is everybody ? including you ? functional and happy?

Who is this reality guy anyway because according to Vern, he knows what image of me is the real one I should hold. How do I find him?

Some say it is God. I could go on to tell you that reality is actually impersonal, but I doubt you?ll actually snap out of your fuzzy-logic thinking modes. So go on, personalize reality all you want ? live on the map and not on the territory. Thrive in idolatry!

Isn't it I who chooses what I want to be through imagining ideals and then pretend being what that is to me until I become it for real? When does it shift from being pretense to the real thing. When am I a person pretending being a mom until I become a real mom. Whats the difference?

Being a mother is function, not some play to be acted out. A function does not require a role. Furthermore, a function can become dysfunctional when roles are needlessly mixed up with it. Not to mention living through opaque lens detracts the richness of being totally involved in the matter-at-hand?

Do you think myself, husband and daughter would prefer a self confident wife and mother who acts as if she knows what she is doing and doing it well or one that is a basket case of self doubt, worry and insecurity?

And a third alternative: A mother and wife, who nurtures, cares for, supports and does all of the appropriate functions to the best of her ability. Too mundane for you?

which is the real image I should be getting real with?

Images are just that ? images. Hint?

Isn't reality "made up" of and by us?

No. Reality is objective. It is our interpretations of reality which becomes subjective.
Reality just IS. ?Reality is?, exists prior to ?reality is this or that.? i.e. interpretations.

Most of what we do in false pretense and creating self flattering images is to keep ourselves from being thrown into a reality of suffering when you think about it.

You?re correct ? in a certain sense. They would only suffer due to their dualistic mindsets imposing warped projections over reality ? rather than actually reflecting reality As Is. In other words, if they were in-touch-with-reality, they would realize the insanity of such behaviors, and be more able to live in peace.


What would my husband say if I said to him, "Honey, Vern Howard says I need to stop pretending to be something I am not to flatter myself and my marriage. He says I should get real with my true feelings and I feel really horney for that guy over there so I am just going to go do him to keep it real and then you and I can go catch a bite to eat"

Being in touch with reality does not mean one makes irrational decisions.
It?s quite the opposite, Jiggy.



I think , reality as we know it is one giant false pretense. To use it as a measure of how we are being false is ridiculous for that reason, like the blind leading the blind it is.

I guess Markos or any other fine therapist, psychologist, neuroscientist, and all other scientists should just drop what they are all doing ? because according to a housewife named Cindy in Florida, reality is just one big false pretense. Might as well start deleting various educational programs from our schools too, hmm?

If anyone choosing to make this imaginary best friend called reality into some real, I'll tell you what this best friend is going to do to you. It will send you a bunch of mixxed messages about yourself and the world confusing you into insufferable hell until you start telling it what its going to be for you and what you are going to be within in it.

It will stab you in the back until you learn to stop trusting and listening to it and start trusting and listening to yourself.

It will leave you to rot when the chips are down like a fair weather "best friend" until you learn to start being there for yourself and how to command the weather in your own life. The forcast is bright warm and sunny in mine everyday!


Wow Jiggy. If you really believe all of that, I guess there?s no stopping you.
And who was it that needed a reality check? Certainly not Vernon Howard.


Reality is objective and is always truthful. It does not lie.
It can be misinterpreted, misunderstood and misbegotten.
But it always holds the truth ? for all to see.
Sounds like a great, honest, reliable friend to me.
But seeing requires a correction of mind, just as clear vision sometimes requires a correction of the eyes.




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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3959944 - 03/23/05 04:02 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

no.


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OfflineBoneMan
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: Gomp]
    #3960027 - 03/23/05 04:26 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I know a lot of people who can't see the reality of their of their unpleasant attributes..

people who are bad with money, and never pay back their debts...

crazy drivers who pull unneccesary stunts on the road that would get them pulled over if there were police around (and possibly injured or killed if there were other unseen vehicles in the vacinity)...

people who beat their own "friends" for money or drugs..

people who turn in the completely different people when high, kinda like a jekyl and hyde thing, and treat everyone else like garbage.

and people who simply don't give a damn about anyone but themselves.

but they deny it all and look at you like you're nuts when you try to point it out to them.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3960696 - 03/23/05 06:24 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I could've just written this instead of the long post I did, but I guess I wrote it yesterday because all those thoughts were running through my head when I thinking about what Vern Howard said.

I don't think he is stupid. I think he thinks like most people living in duality perception. Some times i shift into and speak from it to for purposes of relating to others on that plane.

It's as simple as this to me. To buy into the idea that there is an objective reality means that there is a subject and an object, TWO things. This is being in duality consciousness and separation which is the form of consciousness fear is experienced within and where there is fear there is suffering and conflict and struggle.

When you adopt an understanding that there is only subject reality and flux, you are now dealing with ONE. ONE has nothing extraneous from itself to fear loosing, nothing to fear except for ones own self really and nothing to struggle against, put up resistance too or be in conflict with.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleeMotionALLmotion
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3963327 - 03/24/05 03:47 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
Reality helps pretenders who want to stop pretending. This is a
world of pretense. You have noticed this. People pretend they
are not scared, pretend they are not hurt, pretend they are not
nervous. Wearing masks of strength and confidence to impress
people, they cry inside. Pretense is harmful and unnecessary.
It fills space that should be filled with Reality. Wherever you
see your own pretense, drop it. Its pain will vanish.
.
~Vernon Howard [edited by SM]
.




.
Isn't one's reality a form of one's own conditionally peceived "pretense" of his/her surroundings...?  If so, how can you drop one without the other....?   
.
I do agree, perhaps a lot of the world is caught up in pretending, or as a metaphor, put on a mask(s) to pretend and cover up what they are experiencing in their sometimes painful chosen way of reality....  Perhaps it is out of fear that someone might see this suffering and offer a gesture of comfort, that just might not be readily accepted by someone in a state of self suffering....(?)    Someone suffering might perceive this acceptance of another's selfless gesture to be an internal self recognition of weakness, when in fact it very well might be the foundation for strength and truth....    Any mask made to make false impressions to others would only serve to feed an aching ego, which inturn might cause more suffering, to make a more defined mask, to falsely impress, to feed ego, suffering, mask, impress, feed, SUFFERING.............       
.
There can be many outside observational and theoretical perceptions of why masks "are" for a wearer, but each mask is custom taylored by each individual choosing to pretend to others and only the wearer of that custom mask can see what is truly on that other side....    Seemingly, one could create a mask to hide a self perceived painful truth(s) in personallity or charactor, and sometimes only painful to the wearer of such masks....  For, it may not be an actual "truth" or a flaw to others in reality, but in certain instances that fear of other's judgements could cause one to create a mask, and perhaps can be more seen as a self defense mechanism to ones chosen pretense of reality....  So **IF** we are on "common ground" in my perception of your words, removing those imprisoning masks hiding suffering would be the freedom from the harmfull pretenses that are indeed unnecessary - and binding - just as a self serving and self comforting "reality"....  And prehaps, open truth to one's pain shall set one free from those masking pretenses....    :heart:
.
Much respect to you for sharing your version of chosen words....  :smile:
After reading what I just wrote, I think that I just re-aranged your words, and made it more confusing....!!  :blush: :lol:
.
Still working on the "little words = wise" thing....    :smile:  :heart:


:sun:


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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: eMotionALLmotion]
    #3964641 - 03/24/05 01:57 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The way you worded it makes sense because you kept it in the subject tense where the measure for what is pretense and real is between the person and the person and comparing states of the self.

Vern, wrote it as if you should be measuring yourself against an objective reality which has no secure and set point of reference.

Love would be the ONLY thing I can think of in this case that I would trust as a comparative objective reality for me to see if I am being true with myself and others or not. If I am not in a state of love then I am in a state of pretense. That makes sense to me because love to me is the only absolute reality, the truth of who and what I really am in Essenes and keeps it subjective while being objective at the same time, because they are one in the same to if that makes any sense.

My being in a state of self love/truth or lack of self love/truth is relative to only me. How can you trust the measure of the external world if you can't trust the measure of your internal world? Mastering a love for the self and trust in that is the name of the game. How can you use another measure of what self love is to compare your own with if it holds a different meaning for everyone?

Thanks for untwisting Vern's words so I could get something from it emotion! I liked what came from this;

If I am not in a state of self love then I am in a state of pretense which may cause me suffering or be a mask for self induced suffering that needs some self induced lovin.

The little wise words that say it all, I found in this thread.


I think what set me off about they way he put it is that to me it read as if there was an objective reality out there by which you could measure your own authenticity with. That would set one up for trying to look out there to find a set truth and then to start making comparisons between your truth and someones elses truth for you.

That to me is a cause of suffering. Comparing yourself with others out there going in to it with the intention that something is wrong with you and something out there is more right sets the seeds for jealousy and insecurity and just eventually leads to becoming competitive with others.

I'm not cut out for reading Vern I guess, I would make a mess of myself with his writings but if someone else can get something useful from them, like you did emotion after you knew how to untwist and reassemble his words to say something completely different then Kudos!

Skorp, I have to ask you something. Well first let me say that it was Verns writing style and presentation that I had an issue of concern with that I presented. Of course that issue has nothing to do with you personally.

I don't even know the person of you really. You mostly post the writings of others. Isn't that fronting with a mask in a way? I really enjoy the writings that come from YOU. I wish you wrote more just from yourself and own experiences.

Maybe this is your way of appearing to be or expressing egolessness, the no person behind the mysterious Skorpvio Musterion. That's Cool!

How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop or Skorp, the world may never know? :tongue: :heart: :thumbup:


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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3965162 - 03/24/05 04:00 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Instead of supporting an illusory image, allow reality to support you, not your self-held image of yourself, as well as your emotion-backed addictions to security, sensation, or power, not to mention your demands of reality [as if you are in any position to demand anything of the way reality naturally unfolds
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Skorp, I like your post. I realized someone was focusing on the wrong thing here even though I haven't read Vernon ( I will now)

Anyway the above quote reminds me of someone I have read and respect tremendously. Have you read Ken Keyes, Handbook to Higher Consciousness?

Sorry to get off track here.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (03/24/05 04:01 PM)


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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: Icelander]
    #3965346 - 03/24/05 04:49 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

What if I live in the middle east and my reality is, that my home was bombed to shreds, my parents were killed in the bombing, I have eaten little in days and there is war going on around me.

How do I derive a true self image from my reality and how am I to let it support me?


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Conditioning a "Maskless" Perception of Reality.... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3965386 - 03/24/05 05:00 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Thank you Jiggy, your words are very kind....    :heart:

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
That to me is a cause of suffering. Comparing yourself with others out there going in to it with the intention that something is wrong with you and something out there is more right sets the seeds for jealousy and insecurity and just eventually leads to becoming competitive with others.
.
I'm not cut out for reading Vern I guess, I would make a mess of myself with his writings but if someone else can get something useful from them, like you did emotion after you knew how to untwist and reassemble his words to say something completely different then Kudos!
.
How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop or Skorp, the world may never know? :tongue: :heart: :thumbup:



.
.
Conditioning a "Maskless" Perception of Reality....
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The ironic thing is that conditioning for this suffering starts off at a very young age....  Some(most?) children grow up imitating life as a "normal" learning process, and that is how they learn and adapt in growing, but in reality, in this world full of pretenses and masks children may be actually imitating an imitation of life....  And as they/we mimic these masks, perhaps even the masks of pretenses in one's reality are conditioned and learned to be of a normal state of existance, as it is consideed to be "normal", and is encouraged....  But how would a child adapt to the sometimes hurtful ways of the world without actually becoming part of it and blending in within the world of masks....?    Perhaps it IS possible that there are some childeren that can live in a loving selfless unmasked state IF they are taught "correctly", but how would anyone be able to REALLY tell the difference....?
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One of the very beautiful things about very young children is how they see and act upon the world without any disregaurd for their observing and asking questions or making an observational comment about the reality they perceive....  We seem to call this state "innocence", or being "naive", and make assumptions that everyone has and acts in the same "pure" way of thinking that they do....(?)    For, they see and openly point out the actual TRUTH(s), and sometimes that can be very embarassing for the parents and/or strangers that may be part of that particular exclaimation or question.....!    :shocked:  :blush:  And as I have seen in actual situations of say in a department store in the checkout line when a child says something along the lines of, "Wow mommy, that lady is really big, isn't she"....  :blush: <~~~ Mommy....!  :lol:  Perhaps the young child had never seen in real life a large person before in their young exploration, and it was a comment out of curiousity and/or recognition to a ever growing reality of discovery....  But what is mom going to say in most cases in her immediate wake of embarresment to the actual situation at hand thru her own conditioning....? 
.
Most likely in this situation, mom is going to say, "Johnny, that wasn't very nice, you shouldn't say things like that about other people, now appologize to her...."  In actuallity, little Johnny has done nothing but spoken the truth in his unmasked perception of his innocent and unconditioned reality, and so he made comment out of this new experiencial revalation and/or recognition to the world without unbiased intentions....  And what did mom do in actuallity by pointing out his "mistake" out of her embarasment....?    She herself started her own conditioning of a mask of pretenses for little Johnny by trying to place her own mask of perception on him by teaching him to not state such a factual truth because it just might hurt another's feelings....    And this may seem "harmless" for mom and everyone else veiwing such a situation, but look at how this conditioning of pretenses may start at even a very early age of childhood developement....    Such is the world of masks from imitating upon the reflection of reality....
.
.
In my thinking out loud of how might be a more unmasked way to approach such a situation with a stranger that might be offended and make for an embarassing situation for mom....?  Perhaps by simply asking little Johnny why he said such a thing with a very openly accepting attitude....  Perhaps then the stranger might better understand that his intentions were not to make fun, but because it was out of his amazement for seeing such a thing that he had never seen before - thus making it more accepting or non-offensive to the possibly self consciously masked large stranger....  Then perhaps when mom and Johnny are away from the situation and in the car, mom could further explain that his actions were not "wrong" for him to do, but some people that are large may get hurt feelings because they may not be comfortable with being large....  In my eyes, this may not place a mask of conditioning on little Johnny as much as he might better understand the actual situation and possible feelings of others - from his saying such truths as he may see them and point them out....  Perhaps that is the simple difference that makes or breaks....  If mom would have just said that he shouldn't say such things because it hurts people's feelings, he might perceive what he said to be wrong, and that may be where the conditioning of masks begin - out of misunderstanding personal situations....(?)  Where as letting little Johnny explain himself, then explaining that he was not wrong in saying that, but some people may be hurt by such things, might let him evolve without building a mask for such a situation....  Perhaps those little steps of teaching would help him further evolve with the truth intact in a better understanding of other's feelings....   
.
.
To break it down in "less" words,
Positive encouragement of a child's innocently growing perception of "truth", without the placing fear or doubt in these new and young eager students of Life in helping with offering an unbiased and better understanding of other's feelings thru teaching and promoting a child's own ability for seeing that innocent "unstaind" truth, and also teaching/promoting the mindfullness of others when interacting and noticing such truths in a social situation....  :heart:
.
I guess that ended up being a lot of words....!  :shrug:  :lol:
.
.
.
I may be wrong on all of this as I am not a parent, but I see things so much differently now....  I do know that all this talk of children really makes me want to have some of my own, to which I was never really sure that I ever even wanted children in my past....  Now I know that I do....    :smile:
.
Which also brings about a question I have been meaning to ask that was thought up a while ago, and I am dying to know the uninhibited truthful answer from a child's eyes....!  I will make another thread for that tho~....  :heart:
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.
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As for Skorpivo and in his defense, he CAN be very personable and outgoing as I have once gotten the chance experience in my curiousity of his seemingly publically private "way"....  I might have actually hurt that growth of getting to know him in my then partially ego driven assumptions, and the implications I threw at him at that time....  :frown:  I did the exact same thing to Swami in my then state of confusion, and/or state of "knowing it all"....  :frown:    As I see it now, my actions were done out of my own false perception and mistaking of a few things that most likely had nothing to do with either of them at all....  HOPEFULLY that bridge of trust can start to build over again in getting to know each other over much calmer water....  Hopefully I have grown and evolved in a more positive and mindfull way of understanding and accepting others just the way they are - even in this relatively short amount of time....  :smile:  :heart:  Skorpivo & Swami, I do that you can have forgiveness for my previously ignorant actions, as I have realized that you are perfect just the way you are, and for that I do love you both....!  :smile:  :heart:    :sun:  :peace:
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.
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Jiggy, I find it VERY ironic out of chance that you should bring up the lollipop question in the awakening evolvement of this thread.....!  :lol:  Perhaps that can be explained to you more fully if you are curious and ask, and the irony is that you can ask Mr. Skorpivo or myself....!    :tongue:    :smile:


:sun:


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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3968394 - 03/25/05 01:26 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
When you adopt an understanding that there is only subject reality and flux, you are now dealing with ONE. ONE has nothing extraneous from itself to fear loosing, nothing to fear except for ones own self really and nothing to struggle against, put up resistance too or be in conflict with.




That sounds like something that needs to be strived for. :thumbup: :wink:

There is such a thing as having a center similar to which you describe, as well as a well-programmed mind that operates from preferences, not emotion-bound demands and addictions, that allows for a peaceful, cosmic life full of experience. Of course, the more one ascends into Cosmic Consciousness (Christ Consciousness), the more one reaches a state in line with what you describe. Any objections to such a state stem entirely from one's illusory sense of identity, obviously, as the very nature of this perspective and this center of consciousness does not include an illusory self.

When one is conscious of every aspect of their experience and does not limit or fragment that experience at all, it seems that they are as close to God as one can be. :grin: I'm not saying that this state is one that I would be centered in all the time, but one with an illusory sense of self (which I will step up and proclaim that everyone here has one at least some of the time :tongue:) has no judgement to pass on an egoless state or its merit. :laugh:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3969005 - 03/25/05 03:46 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

THANK YOU Fireworks for showing me understanding. ( I know you understand this stuff gomp  :wink:) And THANK YOU for putting this understanding into words that can help more people understand it.

I'm working on a there fields theory that i Will post that will blow this idea of one set true reality to measure truth or false pretense by out of the water. It's never one or the other, its always BOTH intertwined. You can't have one with out the other which is why really there is is only one dynamic at play withing 3 fields I will present in a new post.  I'll give you a heads up on them,

The field of no time, the field of simultaneous time and the field of linear time. You'll like it FW! I may have it up later today.

My head is a lot clearer today and I can elucidate and EXPAND on this understanding much more coherently now. It is we who influence what objective reality is and as our self influence changes so does it, hense the flux and why it can not be set to use a a measure for comparison. Objective reality is created by us making it a part of the subject, us.

Reality is your best friend, when you realize that you are a co- creator of it. If you think it is something separate from you that happens to you then it will become your worst enemy. When you realize yourself as the creator of it, THEN, the understanding becomes one of realizing that it is truly WE who are our own best friends.

As far as I am concerned, anyone who has a problem with understanding this is in denial of being responsible for their own creations and living in victim consciousness. All I wanted to do was to help people realize that and become empowered to move out of it. I have more on how to do this for those that would like to get out of victim mode.

When you experience yourself to be a victim of or separate from reality then that is when you are being your own worst enemy. When you experience yourself to be in mutual collaboration and benefit with your reality is when you are being your own best friend.

The objective reality is nothing more then a self reflecting mirror. It is reflecting the self at all times, not projecting itself as a separate entity upon you. Reality is of your creation. The only thing that can make it appear to be objective from yourself is when you object to your own self creations. That is how it is WE who create objective reality, by self objections.  This makes objective reality and illusion, not the truth. Read on......

Objective reality is the illusion created when you deny responsibility for creating it yourself and want to set it a part from you and make some unknown responsible for subjecting you to it. It's created when we can not see our very own same Essenes in it. A rock is an object separate from us, yet, by observation of it only does it become realized, made real to us. We make objective reality real.

Objective reality is not the truth, but the illusion my friends. Vern Howard has it in reverse and will set you going backwards in time. My three field theory will explain what I mean by that.

The only reason why anyone would put resistance up to this understanding is because, they aren't ready to accept themselves as a Co-Creator of reality. And I humbly understand that. It's an enormously responsible position to move your self awareness into.

When Fireworks talked about us being in a state of self illusion which some humans are in all of the time and others slip into some of the time, including me for sure. Its when we don't want to accept the responsibility of being a Co-Creator of our realities that we slip into it. This is when we are living in false pretense of who we truly are.

When you think there is an objective reality, a part from you imposing its will on you without you having a choice, or that you need to be submissive too it, or overly aggressive with it, is when you are in a state of false pretense. You have given up the power of your creative control over to the object.

A best friend doesn't betray or deny it's best friend of anything. When you start doing this to yourself is when you start giving your power over to the object and in that state of self denial, self rejection, self-objection "get it" you have made the object a separate part from the self, more powerful and greater then yourself. This is how it can appear to over come you into victimization of it.

Really, you are a victim at your own hands and just are in denial of it. You have the power within to unvictimise yourself by becoming your own best friend again and taking the power of your creative control back.

When you accept yourself as Co-Creator then you know what you are doing to create your experiential realities and you know how to change them to suit your preferences. When you realize your power to do that is when you are coming closer to being in your truth as a co-creator with the Divine. :heart:


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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3969229 - 03/25/05 04:53 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I'm getting the hint that you and I are using the word[s]: reality/objective reality differently.

What does reality mean to you? How are you using the word?


From dictionary.com:
1.) The quality or state of being actual or true.
2.) One, such as a person, an entity, or an event, that is actual: ?the weight of history and political realities? (Benno C. Schmidt, Jr.).
3.) The totality of all things possessing actuality, existence, or essence.
4.) That which exists objectively and in fact: Your observations do not seem to be about reality.

As I use the word in congruity with the above definition[s], I refer to Facts, Actuality.

Facts, are your best friend. This is the entire epitome of the original message. People often live a great portion of their lives in avoidance of facts; facts which could be used to their advantage, as facts are not positive nor negative. They are neutral, hence can be used for destruction or construction. They are the tools that we all need in reality.
Honesty, in a word.

So when somebody claims objective reality is an illusion, that implies that they believe facts are illusions as well. This may not be the case with you, as you might be referring to something else.. so if there is just a semantic confusion, then please do show where the confusion lies.

If you're simply trying to say that we are in charge of making our own choices, then of course we are in agreement.
We all LIVE in our own subjective realities which are all rooted in one objective reality. They are both two sides to the same coin - they ARE One. You pointed this out already and I already understand this.


"How do we find facts?

Dare to live without opinions. At first, you feel jittery
like an invalid abandoning his cane, but, later, quietness
sets in. The test of whether you really see a fact about
life is this: When clearly seen, you feel a great sense
of relief."

-Vernon Howard

[See?]


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3969320 - 03/25/05 05:21 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

That's definitely where our views are differing here.

You see facts to be set and I see them in a state of flux not set. This is why I disagree with there being a set reality of truth to measure our own truth against.

The fact is I am alive and breathing. The fact also is, I am dead and dust. Another fact is that, I am not even born yet. All facts are true and quite different, and they depend on what point of time you are perceiving the "true" set of "facts" in.

There was a point in time, where the fact was that the sun was a God and it circled around the earth. There is a point in time where the fact is, it is a ball of gas that the earth circles around. What will the fact of the suns truth be 5000 years from now? What will the fact of the suns truth be 10 trillion years from now?

Is the truth and are facts really so set and abosolute?

It's all relative to the subject.

To me, facts and truths ARE in a state of flux and not set in stone. Time moves slow in our limited 5 sensory perception. Its difficult to observe or witness that flux and it just appears as if a fact or truth is set as an absolute you can count on being true forever.

Yes, this is where we are differing in how we view reality. You see one that has set truths and I just see a state of everything in flux and motion. Flux, change and motion is my only set truth of reality here.

edit typos


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (03/25/05 05:59 PM)


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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3969473 - 03/25/05 06:01 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

My apologizes  for the horrible typos and grammar that last reply had. I should not have typed it in a hurry. My daughter was waiting on me to go for a bike ride. I should've done it when I got back. I cleaned it up now and it reads easier.  :blush:


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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3969794 - 03/25/05 07:44 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
When you adopt an understanding that there is only subject reality and flux, you are now dealing with ONE. ONE has nothing extraneous from itself to fear loosing, nothing to fear except for ones own self really and nothing to struggle against, put up resistance too or be in conflict with.






There is such a thing as having a center similar to which you describe, as well as a well-programmed mind that operates from preferences, not emotion-bound demands and addictions, that allows for a peaceful, cosmic life full of experience. Of course, the more one ascends into Cosmic Consciousness (Christ Consciousness), the more one reaches a state in line with what you describe. :laugh:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




Thanks to all of you for this very amazing discussion. Being new here at the Shroomery, it warms my unconditionally loving heart to hear all of this. I feel very warm and at home here just hearing your words. Blessings and many thanks. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3969963 - 03/25/05 08:37 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I have to say that I am feeling not to good about something here and it's not that i regret sharing my view on this, but I do wish I could start over from the beginning with a different approach. I have a lot of respect for you Skorp and really enjoy you here very much.

I do think semantics have been  a bigger issue here then anything.

I know you know this stuff I talked about Skorp. I know its child's play for you. This was never about you. This was about how Vern presented the subjective and objective realities as being separate from each other. That pulled my trigger because any teaching that teaches in separation and duality is bound to lead to suffering to me.

Had he unified the subject and object and demonstrated the relationship between the two, then, it would've been cool easy breezing reading to me.

Because I know you know this oneness stuff, you can read a guy like Vern and take his plurals and make them into a singular understanding that serves you. Most people on the planet do not know how to do that yet. Seeing what can come from dualistic teachings, my intent was to unify it, as poorly as I did. I worked as much as I could to do it better with some help from all of you adding to the clarifications made here.

Thanks Skorp!  Much love, appreciation and respect :heart:


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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3972853 - 03/26/05 04:37 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

You see facts to be set and I see them in a state of flux not set? Yes, this is where we are differing in how we view reality. You see one that has set truths and I just see a state of everything in flux and motion. Flux, change and motion is my only set truth of reality here.
And yet again, it seems we have another misunderstanding. Where do you get the idea that I hold some notion that reality is something fixed, rather than an on-going process?
I?m well aware of the ultimate fleeting nature of all things.
It sounds like you?re trying to speak from the absolute standpoint.
I understand all of that, but I?m speaking from the relative standpoint.

For example, it matters whether you succeed or fail in the eyes of the world. It matters whether you are healthy or not healthy, whether you are educated or not educated. It matters whether your are rich or poor ? it certainly makes a difference in your life. All of these things matter, relatively speaking, but they don?t matter absolutely.

The point that is becoming increasingly distanced from this discussion is that we must find the facts in the matter-at-hand, not the facts of what has happened four thousand years ago, or of what is taking place sixteen light-years from us in outer-space.

Real life example:
In high school, Susan is picked on, teased and harassed at her school by other students due to her inability to speak properly. Little did most know, she was much, much smarter than most of them, with a very, very high IQ.
The taunting student?s perceptual-filters have interpreted the data of her situation into a negative caliber, then conjured up an image of her pertinent to negativity and categorized that image into a negative concept. They reduce the aliveness of a human being to a mere concept, exclaiming ?I am better than Susan, and she must know this, so that I will receive the expected feedback from her, which will support my illusory image of superiority.. and so on.?

Susan learns that, objectively neither she nor the other students possess an intrinsically superior nature than the other. They are all objectively equal, although each of them may possess different capabilities and abilities, that the others do not. Furthermore, she discovers the fact that the students are behaving in such ways due to their own psychological conditioning, environmental influences, memetics and genetics, and so on ad infinitum...

By simply focusing on the facts of the matter-in-hand, she was able to look at things from a higher perspective, and evolve out of her older mental conditioning that would still be stuck in the old resistance patterns which perpetuated her victim-identity complex. Not taking some escapist route ? hindering personal growth and development ? into ?esoterica? where her mind found comfort in matters that offer a thin veneer of comfort, but at the price of neurotic support and constant defense against the assault of reality ? whether consciously or un/subconsciously.

And Susan finally had the confidence to do something about her speech impediment, and went to the doctors, and had surgery.

There was a point in time, where the fact was that the sun was a God and it circled around the earth.

Sorry, but that was not a fact. That was a belief. There was never any actual proof of such, therefore it was never an actual fact. At best, it could have been a sketchy theory, but certainly not a fact. It is a fact that the sun was perceived to be a God. In reality, the actual fact-of-the-matter never changed; only the interpretations and perceptions.

Most facts as we know today, are basically going to be factoids for the remainder of all existence, generally speaking.
At the moment, I can?t think of any actual, objective facts that have been proven? but then disproved later on.
Theories, yes. Actual facts? Not sure about that yet. Diploid, Phluck or Trendal may be better judges here if we are to remain within the realms of the Shroomery.
Either way, I worded the first sentence carefully:? ?Most facts??

The fact is I am alive and breathing. The fact also is, I am dead and dust. Another fact is that, I am not even born yet. All facts are true and quite different, and they depend on what point of time you are perceiving the "true" set of "facts" in.

As ole Markos says?
Be Here Now.



--------------------
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Edited by SkorpivoMusterion (03/26/05 05:07 PM)


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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3973084 - 03/26/05 06:06 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

i apologize to the previous posters-- i haven't read your posts. i just wanted to respond to the original post, because it reminded me of a little black book i saw at the bookstore yesterday. i started reading the intro; i found the first chapter online:


Chapter 1

"One of the most salient features of our culture is that there is so much bullshit. Everyone knows this. Each of us contributes his share. But we tend to take the situation for granted. Most people are rather confident of their ability to recognize bullshit and to avoid being taken in by it. So the phenomenon has not aroused much deliberate concern, nor attracted much sustained inquiry.

In consequence, we have no clear understanding of what bullshit is, why there is so much of it, or what functions it serves. And we lack a conscientiously developed appreciation of what it means to us. In other words, we have no theory. I propose to begin the development of a theoretical understanding of bullshit, mainly by providing some tentative and exploratory philosophical analysis. I shall not consider the rhetorical uses and misuses of bullshit. My aim is simply to give a rough account of what bullshit is and how it differs from what it is not--or (putting it somewhat differently) to articulate, more or less sketchily, the structure of its concept. [continued]"

the book is titled,

"on bullshit"

it was in the philosophy section.


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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3973304 - 03/26/05 07:04 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I read the story and have no idea how because the other kids called Susan dumb for a speech impediment that she learned they were all equal. That wasn't demonstrated. If she did get real with the facts about herself, that she had a much higher IQ, then Susan would have realized that inequity and felt intellectually superior to them.

What I have been highlighting here is that when we start comparing ourselves to whats out there, it will lead to insecurities of inequity either way. People who realize that they are better at something or have more of something then others can feel can become just as awkward or isolated feeling and insecure in fear a loos of what makes them more to compensate for what makes them less as the less thens feel.

The fact is, human beings are riddled with actually inequities compared to each other and we can not escape that fact here.

I think Verns message only reinforces the realizations of our duality separations and only internal and external struggles ensue from them.

Now if Susan kept her sense of truth subjective that changes everything for the better. If Susan took empowerment over deciding for herself what Susan is, Susan can decide if she is smart or dumb for herself. Susan can decide if her speech impediment is a problem for her to work on or not. Susan can decide if she has something to offer other people that gives her value besides her voice. Susan is free to be as a subjective being in a subjective world.

Susan is trapped left and right in a subject object world. Note the trapped in the left and trapped in the right under tone....duality and struggles. She's less good for having a speech impediment and she is more good for having a higher IQ.

Between Susan and Susan she is just a girl with a speech impediment and intelligent, her truth. Between Susan and the objective reality she is worse here, better there- crap to deal with trying to balance the scales.

Skorp, what if Susan had a less then average IQ and that was a provable fact from tests she took in comparison to others? Then, Susan must get real with herself and accept her truth as being the dumb kid.  I guess that justifies the name calling then and Susan's self esteem can tank and Vern will be pleased with himself.

So Susan may talk funny and not be very smart "compared" to other people, objects but what if Susan decides not to care what the others think and to love and think well of herself just as she is? There's a novel idea, self acceptance?

What if she decides to dream big for herself and see herself up on stage as a prima ballerina and through her dreams and fantasies of what is not true or fact in the "linear" now, she works to become a prima ballerina. In her adult life she becomes one for real, inspired by the dreams that carried her away from the name calling, and  experiences a wonderful sense of self accomplishment and self fulfillment through her dance?

This being in the now stuff, I realize some take it to mean being present in the fractal linear  moment.

First, in between and last time I checked, being in the NOW meant being in the Now of eternal time, the Now of all existence, the Now of the absolute, where all things can and are possible. The only absolute truth I know of is eternal equity with all in spirit and change beyond that. With that said, using set objective facts to measure yourself truth against is not even possible to do. It will lead to suffering because we are not our bodies, we are not our things, we are not our titles. We are spirits having a human experience.

The facts of the human experience often times are not pretty. What about the question I asked about the boy who's home was bombed, family killed and existed in the middle of a war with nothing but himself. Should he accept the facts and get real with himself? Then what?

Or maybe, to deal with the facts he can dream of a place where there is no war and people around him to love, care for and support him again. In this "escapism dreaming" he can become inspired, become in his spirit self, and then be emotionally moved "motivated" to find a way out of that area and into another country where he can then begin to create and realize his dream.

You can live in a subject -fact object reality and measure yourself truth to it all you want. You can teach others the virtues of duality also, all you want to. I can live in a subjective only reality all I want and share the virtues and freedoms I have found in it with others at the same time.

Some how, we will co-existence in peace and harmony because that's the subjective truth I live in, the simultaneous time, "here and Now" of eternal existence where all things can be and are at the same time.

So, what are you cooking for dinner Skorp because the fact of the fractal moment of the linear now is that I am hungry. This is my truth and I shall present no false hoods or pretenses about it. Vern would be proud of me for getting real with my appetite so I do not suffer needlessly from hunger and starve to death.

Is that was he was talking about? Did he mean that I shouldn't put on a false pretense of not being hungry when I am because I have this false truth about myself that I do not need food to keep from hunger and starvation?

If any factoid is of important relevance to my existence and survival here, I think it will make itself pretty evident and be in command of my compliance with it if I care to sustain my lively hood in a physical body. Do I need someone telling me that I have to go out and look for the facts about needing food to survive to make sure I am not lying to myself OR can it be self evident?

After all, all of my needs are between me and myself and in this case my stomach sending me a message to go eat and was it actually, dare I say, all realized within my subjective reality?

Pretty cool how when there is only ONE and you realize yourself as the one, the system becomes self contained and the objects to it are all illusions.  Imagine that.  :wink::inlove:


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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3974504 - 03/27/05 12:23 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I read the story and have no idea how because the other kids called Susan dumb for a speech impediment that she learned they were all equal. That wasn't demonstrated. If she did get real with the facts about herself, that she had a much higher IQ, then Susan would have realized that inequity and felt intellectually superior to them.

She assessed the situation, and instead of choosing a route full of avoidant-beliefs, she chose the route of letting all the facts of the matter-in-hand have their way. She gained self-knowledge, which helped her free herself from her self-defeating delusions.

And as a person who has had a life-long disability, I speak from personal experience when I say it is NOT hard at all to become susceptible to a victim-identity complex even when one is a regular Alfred Einstein.

What I have been highlighting here is that when we start comparing ourselves to whats out there, it will lead to insecurities of inequity either way.

Being out of touch with reality gives rise to insecurities, not the other way around.

I think Verns message only reinforces the realizations of our duality separations and only internal and external struggles ensue from them.

Vern was a spiritual teacher who knew very well about the problems which stem from dualistic thinking. It is only you, that is projecting your own egoic-fears onto Vernon?s quote.

"Upon observing a fault in yourself, neither justify nor condemn
it. To justify or condemn means you are using the habitual way of
thinking, the mechanical way of thinking, which always divides
everything into opposites, like justification and condemnation or
right and wrong. Observe the fault from a third viewpoint, which
is above these opposites, which frees you. The third viewpoint is
quiet awareness."


~Vernon Howard



Before I continue? look at the definition of objective and subjective.
From Dictionary.com:
ob?jec?tive      P  Pronunciation Key  ( b-j k t v)
adj.
1. Of or having to do with a material object.
2. Having actual existence or reality.
3.
a. Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices: an objective critic. See Synonyms at fair1.
b. Based on observable phenomena; presented factually: an objective appraisal.
4. Medicine. Indicating a symptom or condition perceived as a sign of disease by someone other than the person affected.
5. Grammar.
a. Of, relating to, or being the case of a noun or pronoun that serves as the object of a verb.
b. Of or relating to a noun or pronoun used in this case.

n.
1. Something that actually exists.
2. Something worked toward or striven for; a goal. See Synonyms at intention.
3. Grammar.
a. The objective case.
b. A noun or pronoun in the objective case.
4. The lens or lens system in a microscope or other optical instrument that first receives light rays from the object and forms the image. Also called object glass, objective lens, object lens.

I am using the word in definition Adj. No. 2 ? NOT No. 1, if that is what you are thinking.

sub?jec?tive      P  Pronunciation Key  (s b-j k t v)
adj.
1.
a. Proceeding from or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world: a subjective decision.
b. Particular to a given person; personal: subjective experience.
2. Moodily introspective.
3. Existing only in the mind; illusory.
4. Psychology. Existing only within the experiencer's mind.
5. Medicine. Of, relating to, or designating a symptom or condition perceived by the patient and not by the examiner.
6. Expressing or bringing into prominence the individuality of the artist or author.
7. Grammar. Relating to or being the nominative case.
8. Relating to the real nature of something; essential.

I am using the word as described by definitions 1, 2, 3 and 4.


Now if Susan kept her sense of truth subjective that changes everything for the better. If Susan took empowerment over deciding for herself what Susan is, Susan can decide if she is smart or dumb for herself. Susan can decide if her speech impediment is a problem for her to work on or not. Susan can decide if she has something to offer other people that gives her value besides her voice. Susan is free to be as a subjective being in a subjective world.

One does not need to be self-delusional into believing volition exists, in order to have volition.

Susan is trapped left and right in a subject object world. Note the trapped in the left and trapped in the right under tone....duality and struggles. She's less good for having a speech impediment and she is more good for having a higher IQ.

Between Susan and Susan she is just a girl with a speech impediment and intelligent, her truth. Between Susan and the objective reality she is worse here, better there- crap to deal with trying to balance the scales.


It is because of people not being in touch with objective reality that Susan is even being subject to emotional abuse! It is because Susan was ALSO not grounded in reality, that she completed the victimizer/victim sequence.
But it seems you cannot grasp this and suggest that being in touch with objective reality, means dualistic thinking somehow will have higher merit.
Objectively, you and I just ARE. Objectively, Life just IS.
All I am referring to here is the acceptance of the ISness of the matter-in-hand, and THEN taking action ? from there. How hard is this to understand?

You seem to be suggesting that:
A)Being in touch with objective reality, necessitates dualistic thinking, and
B)Not being in touch with objective reality, necessitates the lack of dualistic thinking.

Is this correct?

Skorp, what if Susan had a less then average IQ and that was a provable fact from tests she took in comparison to others?

Then it that?s just the simple fact that she scored at such and such during such and such time of her life-span. That?s it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Then, Susan must get real with herself and accept her truth as having a different type of intellect than the norm.

Correction mine. I accept the truth that I have a certain disability, as it would be frankly preposterous for me to live in complete denial of reality and claim ?ah but I CAN in fact do X action!? When it is simply not physically possible for me to do action X.

I guess that justifies the name calling then and Susan's self esteem can tank and Vern will be pleased with himself.

Hmm? sounds like you obviously were one of the not-so-nice kids in school, then.
You and I both know that nothing objectively justifies your daughter Ariela [btw, I happen to have an aunt who lives in Florida, with a daughter named Ariel] being subject to such emotional abuse for whatever differences she has.

Objectively, we all have physical and psychological differences, but only when subjectivism is brought into play, can such differences ever be labeled in dualistic thought, i.e. ?this is GOOD/BAD??

what if Susan decides not to care what the others think and to love and think well of herself just as she is? There's a novel idea, self acceptance?

-clap clap clap- Finally! You have grasped it!

What if she decides to dream big for herself and see herself up on stage as a prima ballerina and through her dreams and fantasies of what is not true or fact in the "linear" now, she works to become a prima ballerina. In her adult life she becomes one for real, inspired by the dreams that carried her away from the name calling, and experiences a wonderful sense of self accomplishment and self fulfillment through her dance?

That's great... I hope she has some strong, strong toes. :smile:

The facts of the human experience often times are not pretty.

They are as they are.

What about the question I asked about the boy who's home was bombed, family killed and existed in the middle of a war with nothing but himself. Should he accept the facts and get real with himself? Then what?

He can only do what he can only do. If there is somewhere to seek shelter, he can do so. If there is someone who he can seek help from, he can do so.
If none of the above are available, and he is totally stranded with no water, food, and civilization within any reasonable distance.. Then he will either die or survive ? one way or another.
Simple as that. He can go and sit in a corner and psychologically pretend he is in Hawaii, but the facts remain the same.






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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3974563 - 03/27/05 12:41 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

hey hey, his middle quote about the third option is Great! That's what I am talking about!

When you rise above the "facts and the fiction" you are there, everywhere and no where and in both!

Vern just said what I have been saying and he contradicted the first quote you posted of his.

I can understand how that can happen because both views can be so, depending on your point of perspective.

When there is a problem, in Vern's first passage you posted, he gave two options. One was right and one was wrong.

Now, in this second bit of his you put up he gave the third choice.

There are always 3 choices, not two. There is the one the other and then both or neither, same difference.

That's all I was saying Skorp, you take the object merge it with the subject and you get a third option. Thanks for clearing this up. :wink:


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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3974720 - 03/27/05 01:29 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
When one is conscious of every aspect of their experience and does not limit or fragment that experience at all, it seems that they are as close to God as one can be.




All that's left to do is to remove your need for an "external" source and take the leap of faith into that uncertain abyss, the bottomless chasm of the great nothing. The fall can't kill you, but solid ground will. Funny how that works out.


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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: Icelander]
    #3974884 - 03/27/05 02:28 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Skorp, I like your post. I realized someone was focusing on the wrong thing here even though I haven't read Vernon ( I will now)

Anyway the above quote reminds me of someone I have read and respect tremendously. Have you read Ken Keyes, Handbook to Higher Consciousness?


No I haven't, but FireworksGod is a strong advocate of that book, and he and I know each other beyond these boards. As it obviously seems, he and I mutually influence one another in spirituality and such.




Pupil:
"One of the most salient features of our culture is that there is so much bullshit. Everyone knows this. Each of us contributes his share. But we tend to take the situation for granted. Most people are rather confident of their ability to recognize bullshit and to avoid being taken in by it. So the phenomenon has not aroused much deliberate concern, nor attracted much sustained inquiry.

In consequence, we have no clear understanding of what bullshit is, why there is so much of it, or what functions it serves. And we lack a conscientiously developed appreciation of what it means to us. In other words, we have no theory. I propose to begin the development of a theoretical understanding of bullshit, mainly by providing some tentative and exploratory philosophical analysis. I shall not consider the rhetorical uses and misuses of bullshit. My aim is simply to give a rough account of what bullshit is and how it differs from what it is not--or (putting it somewhat differently) to articulate, more or less sketchily, the structure of its concept. [continued]"

the book is titled,

"on bullshit"


Excellent! :thumbup:



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Offlinetrentinxd
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #13298754 - 10/06/10 03:31 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

You know exactly what im saying help me kill everyones insecurities


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Offlinetrentinxd
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: trentinxd]
    #13299107 - 10/06/10 04:47 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Read reality is scary but it isnt, its just a seprate thought on aother page to help you understand


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