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 trendal
J♠
 
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,814
Loc: Ontario, Canada 
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 Relative? or Absolute? 
#3864020 - 03/03/05 05:52 PM (18 years, 23 days ago) |
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Are there any absolutes? Or is everything relative?
Examples?
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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 Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: trendal]
#3864083 - 03/03/05 06:01 PM (18 years, 23 days ago) |
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Absolute relativity.
Absolutely knowing that the only absolution is the lack of knowing anything absolute beyond what we provide and assert as absolute. Therefor giving it a piece of relativity.
Edit:
Ideals by nature are absolute. Subjective in their determination though. "wherever we go their where are"  absolution for ya (relatively)
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/03/05 06:09 PM)
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ninjapixie
newbie
Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 417
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: trendal]
#3864090 - 03/03/05 06:01 PM (18 years, 23 days ago) |
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Everything is relative is the only absolute.
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Put that monkey back in the oven.
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 Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: ninjapixie]
#3864149 - 03/03/05 06:14 PM (18 years, 23 days ago) |
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its relative absolutes!? 
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Disclaimer!?
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
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Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: Gomp]
#3864196 - 03/03/05 06:24 PM (18 years, 23 days ago) |
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nope, it only "goes one way" unlike reincarnation. relative absolutes are still only absolutely relative.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/03/05 06:30 PM)
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freddurgan
Techgnostic
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That's not true. There are absolute's, but they are part of defined systems.
If you take 2 + 2 = 4, and you use the well defined natural number system, there is no combating that. You can't say "I don't believe it's 4" because it IS 4. There are rules defining that system and 2 + 2 = 4 is part of that system. There are no ifs, ands or buts.
But most things are relative. Almost all things are. Gravity, while constant, might not be absolutely defined. It won't go away but it might get redefined in a big, big way some 100 years from now. Gravity itself is absolute but our understanding of it is defenitely relative.
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IrishNation
The Color Verde
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Absolutes are only imposed when people don't have time to fully look at a situation. A person that can see relatively, to me anyway, is the sign of a person who is truely knowledgeable and open minded. People don't like to take time to find out about stuff....wouldn't you agree that it's much more easier to make generalizations?
"All Killings are Bad" "All Catholics are closed minded" "All drug users are dumb stimulous junkies"
Life would be so much easier if their were absolutes. There would be no grey, just pretty checkerboard patterns of black and white.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: freddurgan]
#3864299 - 03/03/05 06:42 PM (18 years, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
freddurgan said:
That's not true. There are absolute's, but they are part of defined systems.
If you take 2 + 2 = 4, and you use the well defined natural number system, there is no combating that. You can't say "I don't believe it's 4" because it IS 4. There are rules defining that system and 2 + 2 = 4 is part of that system. There are no ifs, ands or buts.
But most things are relative. Almost all things are. Gravity, while constant, might not be absolutely defined. It won't go away but it might get redefined in a big, big way some 100 years from now. Gravity itself is absolute but our understanding of it is defenitely relative.
I agree to an extent in regards to gravity... but as far as the numbering system goes, you could alternatively say that 4+ 7 = 8 and still have it be equally valid. True, but in that situation you can make anything absolute provided you define it to the degree where it's absolute in a given context (meaning it's not absolute in an actual context, hence it's relativity). You're implying that everything is of an absolute nature which it is not, nor will it ever be. One can easily assign different parameters to a numbering system and have it be equally as valid. Rules are relative to the parameters and the context, hence further throwing off the ideal of absolution. It is our relative agreement within the confines of the system we're analyzing which makes it appear as an absolution... but it's all relative. Apply the same notion to gravity, and you'll get what I'm saying.
Edit:
We tend to over exagerate our understanding of the system to the extent that we assign properties to gravity which do not exist, therefor giving it a subjective (hence relative notion). When one applies the fundamentals and dynamics of the possibility and the concept of an electrical universe where the sun is sending out a little bit more energy then "light" e.g. the sun as a capacitor and the planetary interactions seen as a large electrical operation (can provide links if you wish). You'll see that our "true absolution" is only further abstracted. And that gravity isn't playing as great a role as it is said to be, therefore blowing "absolution" out of the water.
Show me a perfect circle, with perfect borders, edges, and boundaries, and I'll show you something that is made with the ideals of Man.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/03/05 09:08 PM)
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
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 Relative? (and/or) Absolute? --- Perception? (and/or) Choice? [Re: trendal]
#3865551 - 03/03/05 10:46 PM (18 years, 23 days ago) |
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Relative? (and/or) Absolute? --- Perception? (and/or) Choice? (of Relative Absolutism?)
As with EVERYHTING, "Absolute" can and does change, at any given point (moment) in time based on the perception of the absoluteness relative to one's chosen perception.... It is all encompassing, coming and going, effect and cause causing effect within an encompassing relative perception of one's absolutism - again based on one's chosen perception of relative absolutism....
Vantage Point....
The world IS.... (To one's relative perception thru awareness and consciousness....)
The world is FLAT.... (To one's relative perception of the world standing on a boat in the middle of an ocean....)
The world SPHERICAL.... (To one's relative perception of the world - from away from the world....)
The world is NOT.... (To a person's perception in a different state of consciousness, or lack thereof....)
So, the question would be, "What IS the World, and how does one CHOOSE to perceive it...?"
Yes, all absolutes AND all relative (and perhaps all relavent -this too based on one's choice of relative perception), and all TRUE, but all *seemingly* in motion relative to one's perception of MOTION of eMotionALLmotion -- a total and complete relative choice of encompassing perception, as it were....
MATH....
*Most* perceptions of math being in base ten as an absolute, (again, a choice) but is relative to one's perception of an absolute knowledge based on one's perceived knowledge and education therein.... If you choose to learn another absolute, then the original absolute is no longer THE only absolute, and is now relative to perception as a choice as to what one would perceive as absolute.... Making it a relative absolute, but not as fact, unless but for a moment - before that moment fades from one's relative perception....
So in summary, there are many fluid absolutes in motion that are relative and constantly changing to one's relative perception, and a choice to deem it absolute perception --as perceived based on choice of one's relative knowledge.... Ultimately all relative and absolutes are based on one's choice of perception.... ABSOLUTELY....!
As choice, perception, and choice of relative (or absolute?) vantage point to be key (but not fact)....
Physical Death....
The only Absolute that I perceive, is physical death, as it is not one's perceivable choice.... 
Or is it....? 
Am I WHITE , or are you WRONG....! Am I read, or YOU are red...!  big fun, --OR-- LITTLE FUN....? Fun Fun Fun....! Fun Fun Fun....!.... Fun Fun Fun....! Fun Fun Fun....!Fun Fun Fun....! Fun Fun Fun....!.... Fun Fun Fun....! Fun Fun Fun....!Fun Fun Fun....! Fun Fun Fun....!.... Fun Fun Fun....! Fun Fun Fun....!----OR---- It's ALL fun, No...?ME....
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I'll be your midnight French Fry.... 
"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: Relative? (and/or) Absolute? --- Perception? (and/or) Choice? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#3865676 - 03/03/05 11:12 PM (18 years, 23 days ago) |
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Absolutely hilarious... Relative to me.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: freddurgan]
#3865686 - 03/03/05 11:16 PM (18 years, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
freddurgan said:
That's not true. There are absolute's, but they are part of defined systems.
If you take 2 + 2 = 4, and you use the well defined natural number system, there is no combating that. You can't say "I don't believe it's 4" because it IS 4. There are rules defining that system and 2 + 2 = 4 is part of that system. There are no ifs, ands or buts.
But most things are relative. Almost all things are. Gravity, while constant, might not be absolutely defined. It won't go away but it might get redefined in a big, big way some 100 years from now. Gravity itself is absolute but our understanding of it is definitely relative.
Just for FUN, I say 2+2 gives me 96.
What I am adding is relative here. 2 cases plus 2 cases equals 96 cans.
I realize 2 cases plus 2 cases equal 4 cases and that is an absolute. Relative to my party planning situation 2 cases plus 2 cases giving me 96 cans is also an absolute.
Relative to my party planning, I can say 2 of something plus 2 of something gives me 96 of something and be absolutely correct in that.
Is there something absolutely something no ifs ands or buts?
I dunno, depends on how you look at this.
enter twilight zone music...........
Fun Topic to play with Tren! 
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: Gomp]
#3865720 - 03/03/05 11:25 PM (18 years, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Gomp said:
its relative absolutes!?
My last example would fall under this here what gomp said.
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: trendal]
#3865753 - 03/03/05 11:34 PM (18 years, 23 days ago) |
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"For eternally and always there has been only now, one and the same now; the present is the only thing that has no end."
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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Who's present though? I could present my image, and my reference of the present in terms of past as much as I want ... but I can't thumb down the present to a present time, only to a present notion of an event. I think I'm absolutely writing this in the present. But when I post this I realize it was all in the past.
To what degree do we give absolution to the present time... as to me, it has already "past" well before I concieved such an odd notion of writing about the present being the past, and at the present time I feel rather odd. But that has all "past" as I hit "Continue".
Edit: fixed the past presently. Or did I....
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/03/05 11:54 PM)
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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I think I'm absolutely writing this in the present. But when I post this I realize it was all in the past.
Indeed it was all in the past.
One must understand that the intellect itself is a tool-of-thought built upon an intricate structure of memetics and genetics, and works completely or partially in psychological-time, ie past or projective future ? not in the actual Here-Now dimension.
Therefore, when one becomes truly still & silent, they let go of all history and completely end psychological time [even if only for a brief, ephemeral moment]. What is left, is the simple timeless awareness that is the Ground from which all knowledge and experience rises from... and ultimately, comes back down to.
It seems that most people hardly realize this, if even at all, because we've identified ourselves with our body, mind and personality, imagining these objects to constitute our real "self." and we then spend our entire lives to defend, protect, and prolong what is just an illusion.
Keep On Dancing... 
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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Are you absolutely certain of this? Or just Relatively certain of the potential of your statment?
Leaving with that for the night... I'm absolutely tired. (Found my relative absolution again )
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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Zekebomb
sociophagus
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Posts: 1,164
Loc: BC province
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
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I can say 2 of something plus 2 of something gives me 96 of something
more specifically, 96 of something else
but yeah, you're right and that's cool.
absolutes exist relative to each other. so, each thing is relative, but everything is absolute.
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fearfect
Registered: 01/15/04
Posts: 1,845
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: Zekebomb]
#3866545 - 03/04/05 03:46 AM (18 years, 23 days ago) |
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"I can say 2 of something plus 2 of something gives me 96 of something"
that is just a combination of words, it doesn't make sense. math is something that the universe holds absolutely and it cannot be broken. 2 + 2 has always and will always equal 4. you can believe what you will about the validity of 2 + 2 equaling 4 but that doesn't change it. There are some absolute truths, and those truths are what govern and allow us to exist. Beyond that, everything else is relative.
in your example where 2 cases equals 96 cans, the idea behind the words is that 48 cans + 48 cans still equals 96 cans.
spoken languages are terrible languages for logic reasoning.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
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Posts: 23,576
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: trendal]
#3866555 - 03/04/05 03:53 AM (18 years, 23 days ago) |
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I have absolutely no idea.
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deafpanda
Stranger
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: trendal]
#3866573 - 03/04/05 04:08 AM (18 years, 23 days ago) |
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I think that there are absolutes, but we can't necessarily know them 100%. I suspect that P=P is absolutely and necessarily true. However, I cannot know that (in the very strictest definition of the word "know") because I am human, and I may have a lapse of judgement every time I see the proposition P=P.
So I do believe in absolutes. I think it is highly likely that some things are absolutely true. In the everyday usage of the word "know", I know that they are absolutely true for all cases. In the strictest way, though, I don't know.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: deafpanda]
#3867241 - 03/04/05 10:31 AM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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If you can't know an absolute absolutely or 100% of the time, then that implies the lack of an absolution. If you know your name 99% of the time, forget it 1% of the time, can it ever be truly said that you ever absolutely know your name?
To believe you know implies uncertainty, albeit far less then to think you know. To know that you know is absolute. But to know you know something absolutely is relatively foolish.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: fearfect]
#3867258 - 03/04/05 10:36 AM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
fearfect said:
"I can say 2 of something plus 2 of something gives me 96 of something"
that is just a combination of words, it doesn't make sense.
It makes sense to me relative to my planning for party supplies and it makes perfect sense to anyone else wanting to know how many soda cans there are.
If my co-party planners asked me, "How many cases of soda did you get and I said, "I had 2 cases and added to 2 more so we have 96 cans, 2+2 =96 would make total sense to them because its relative to how many cans are in a case.
Yes, 2 plus 2 cases is absolutely 4 cases and relatively 96 cans. This is an absolutely correct statement, not non sense relative to those who know how many cans come in a case.
So it may be like gomp said , " aboslutes are also relative"
What if any thing one thinks is illogical simply makes no sense to them because their is missing information they are not aware of, like in this case, how many cans are in a case?
There are absolutely 24 cans to a case. Just because one may not know that doesn't make 24 cans to a case something illogical.
Take the words away from these two statements
2 cases + 2 cases = 4 cases
2 cases + 2 cases = 96 cans
you get
2+2=4
2+2=96
Bot are absolutely correct RELATIVE to the words around them.
I would like to see how relativity does not effect something to become an absolute and I am waiting for it to be demonstrated in this thread. I am also looking to find an absolute that I can't make relative.
Water is absolutely a liquid relative to its temperature.
Someone, give me an absolute that is not relative to something.
Even Skorps now is relative to past and future being a part of the now moment or not being a part of the now moment.
What is absolute is being aware of the now moments that are relative to the moments that came before and come after. Without before and after, Now becomes absolutely meaningless relative to experiencing the succession of cause and effects or the comparisons and contrasts that giving absolute meaning to the now which is absolutely moving and active, though one can't see the atoms and quarks and aethers spinning away.
If the absolute now is not relative to anything then it is stagnant, or frozen, not moving, still. The only way to KNOW this or experience this is absolutely relative to movement and change.
I dunno, the NOW being absolute is relative to something to matter how I look at it. The only way the now can be absolute with out relativity would be for me to not look at it.
Without a "me" to look at it there is no "me" to know it absolutely exists. So the NOW is absolutely relative to the self who can or can not perceive it.
I voted everything is relative to the perceiver of it. How does one locate a non relative absolute without being relative to it?
What do have in your bag to answer that question Skorp?
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
Edited by gettinjiggywithit (03/04/05 10:42 AM)
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deafpanda
Stranger
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I think you just said what I said...
I believe that there are absolutes, I am as sure that absolutes exist as I am that 1+1=2, but I can't "know" this in an infallible, philosophical sense.
To be honest, I couldn't really decode your second paragraph very well, so fuck knows if I actually addressed what you said...
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: deafpanda]
#3867318 - 03/04/05 10:58 AM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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Essentially, I was suggesting to know anything is absolute beyond what we define it to be is relative to our vantage point. Therin lies the dilemma of absolution, from my view point it is as absolute as it possibly can be relative to my understanding.
Only when I know it to be absolute in my mind do I know of absolution, when I subjugate others to my similar sense of absolution, I've stepped into the relativity of absolution.
Second Paragraph:
To assert my absolution as infallible to any degree, is relatively foolish, e.g. something is as absolute to the individual as 1 + 1 = 2 is relative to their acceptance of said stated concepts. But as far as it being certain and to know it is such to any degree of absolution is defined on our willingness to accept the nature of the mechanics; which of course is relative to our acceptance of it, and not absolute in any context but the context with which we assert it's truth and it's ability to work within our understanding. So simply put, to know of it being absolute is relatively foolish as it is what we choose to accept to know and use as a foundation, not that which is an inherent truth applicable to all, which is also applicable to gettingjiggywithit's post.
Sorry, my explanation might be absolutely confusing ... but it makes sense relative to me.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: trendal]
#3867356 - 03/04/05 11:06 AM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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The only absolute I can think of is the speed of light in a vacuum.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: Seuss]
#3867372 - 03/04/05 11:09 AM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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"In a Vacuum", absolute to the restraints used. Not absolute to any other degree then the restraints given. Is subjective evaluation of a mechanic within a defined parameter absolutely absolute? Or is it subjective to it's environment? Or is it absolute upon the nature of our definition of the speed of light?
BTW, the speed of light isn't the absolute speed as well, as far as mechanics go, their have been faster forms energy transfer through electrical means.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said:
I voted everything is relative to the perceiver of it. How does one locate a non relative absolute without being relative to it?
Whatever an absolute is, it has to become relative to the one that perceives it to be so. Then that one says to another , "look, see what I see and how it absolutely is?" This is relating absolutes. This is what makes them all relative.
We are relators of absolutes via perception making us all "relatives" of the absolute, scientifically speaking. That is also an explanation what some mean by our being interconnected as one or what religions mean by we are Gods children.............relatives of the absolute
It's all the same thing The only difference is that;
Science doesn't make something an absolute until they can relate to it through scientific exploration and discovery.
A spiritual meta-physician doesn't make something an absolute until they can relate to it through "meta"- physical exploration and discovery.
A religious person is told there is an absolute they are related to and to believe in its absolute existence because it said so or else. 
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
Edited by gettinjiggywithit (03/04/05 11:14 AM)
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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This post just keeps getting better.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: Seuss]
#3867406 - 03/04/05 11:17 AM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
The only absolute I can think of is the speed of light in a vacuum.
Doesn't that make the speed relative to its being in a vacuum?
Thats what some of us are saying about absolutes being relative to something.
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
Edited by gettinjiggywithit (03/04/05 11:20 AM)
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deafpanda
Stranger
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 984
Loc: Inguland
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
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Ah-ha yes I see.
Yes, absolutes require a framework around them to exist. This still makes them absolutes within that framework, I think.
P=P is true in all cases once you have defined the relationship denoted by "=".
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: deafpanda]
#3867448 - 03/04/05 11:27 AM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
deafpanda said:
Ah-ha yes I see.
Yes, absolutes require a framework around them to exist. This still makes them absolutes within that framework, I think.
P=P is true in all cases once you have defined the relationship denoted by "=".
Yup. But absolutes within a defined framework aren't absolute still. The true question is can you provide anything that truly is absolute without question of relative circumstances?
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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deafpanda
Stranger
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Loc: Inguland
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But they ARE absolute in their own context, as you just said. O'm not sure you can get better than that.
Within the context of logic, P=P is absolutely true. Taken out of this context it is meaningless.
The only possibility would be the natural laws of the universe. I think these are absolute. (Note, I am not talking about human measurement or approximation of these laws).
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: deafpanda]
#3867478 - 03/04/05 11:34 AM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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True... but the nature of laws, is to define that which we understand it. Their have been, and will continue to be methods of circumventing them. What we thought as a basis of a natural law, and the implications of it have vastly changed from the 17th-21st century. A natural law is only absolute to our ability to circumvent it.
No limits.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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deafpanda
Stranger
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 984
Loc: Inguland
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
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A natural law cannot be circumvented. As I said, I am talking about the underlying principles of the universe (the mass of an electron etc), not our shoddy theories of how they work, which do change over time.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: deafpanda]
#3867558 - 03/04/05 11:52 AM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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How can you say that? Like any law, it can be broken if we have a great enough understanding of it.
Just need the next "Johnny Cochrane" of lawyers to come about. (Note: Next Great Theorist; e.g. Einstein). Remeber, nature is only natural to the degree that we cannot overcome it. All in time, provided we don't kill ourselves off first
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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deafpanda
Stranger
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 984
Loc: Inguland
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
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We have never broken a natural law. Can you give me an example of where we have?
For instance, electrons always have had and always will have the same mass.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
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Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 9 days
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>> The only absolute I can think of is the speed of light in a vacuum.
> Doesn't that make the speed relative to its being in a vacuum?
No. The speed of light in a vacuum is the same, regardless of what vacuum you use or how fast your vacuum is moving or accelerating. "Relative" only comes into play when the light (photons) are observed. A vacuum isn't a thing, so much as a lack of things. By using the term "in a vacuum" I am really saying "all else being equal with nothing interacting or obstructing the path of the photons".
> the speed of light isn't the absolute speed as well, as far as mechanics go, their have been faster forms energy transfer through electrical means
You wording makes this tricky to argue. You are correct, we can transfer energy faster than the speed of light (there are huge losses)... but, there is a lot of debate about the "state" of the resulting energy. For instance, we can split a modulated microwave beam, sending half of it through a vacuum and the other half into a solid brass bar, both of equal length. Both the vacuum and the brass bar will transmit some of the microwaves... but the brass bar transmits them faster than the vacuum. However, the vacuum maintains the information (modulation) contained in the microwaves while the brass bar loses the modulation. (I am very fasinated by this research... it demonstrates that we still do not understand how matter, time, and energy work together.)
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: Seuss]
#3867595 - 03/04/05 12:05 PM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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Electrons have a determined mass, not an actual mass. We believe we have an estimation of their mass, but our measuring system is such that, while attempting to measure it, we are indeed influncing it's weight.
As for the actual weight; it is relative to it's speed, which suggests that it might not be as constant as we might think it is. Think quantum mechanics.
http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci839930,00.html
With the degree of relativity associated with the speed of the electron and that acting as a mechanism to change the approximated weight, can one say that it most certainly abides by a natural law, if it's influenced by relative means of speed? Just needs to be broken.
Breaking the speed of light (and changing it too )
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6092
Natural law for ya.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: Seuss]
#3867608 - 03/04/05 12:11 PM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
>> The only absolute I can think of is the speed of light in a vacuum.
> Doesn't that make the speed relative to its being in a vacuum?
No. The speed of light in a vacuum is the same, regardless of what vacuum you use or how fast your vacuum is moving or accelerating. "Relative" only comes into play when the light (photons) are observed. A vacuum isn't a thing, so much as a lack of things. By using the term "in a vacuum" I am really saying "all else being equal with nothing interacting or obstructing the path of the photons".
> the speed of light isn't the absolute speed as well, as far as mechanics go, their have been faster forms energy transfer through electrical means
You wording makes this tricky to argue. You are correct, we can transfer energy faster than the speed of light (there are huge losses)... but, there is a lot of debate about the "state" of the resulting energy. For instance, we can split a modulated microwave beam, sending half of it through a vacuum and the other half into a solid brass bar, both of equal length. Both the vacuum and the brass bar will transmit some of the microwaves... but the brass bar transmits them faster than the vacuum. However, the vacuum maintains the information (modulation) contained in the microwaves while the brass bar loses the modulation. (I am very fasinated by this research... it demonstrates that we still do not understand how matter, time, and energy work together.)
I agree with you on this. My primary point is that regardless of it being absolute in a state, it is thusly only absolute due to the fact of it having parameters placed onto it. Which essentially only makes it absolute within the confines we give it. Wasn't disagreeing with the mechanics of it, but more the semantics of it
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,814
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: Seuss]
#3867779 - 03/04/05 12:51 PM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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Isn't speed itself a relative?
Light may travel at 300,000 km/s in the vacuum....but 300,000 km/s relative to what?
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Quote:
Seuss said:
>> The only absolute I can think of is the speed of light in a vacuum.
> Doesn't that make the speed relative to its being in a vacuum?
No. The speed of light in a vacuum is the same, regardless of what vacuum you use or how fast your vacuum is moving or accelerating. "Relative" only comes into play when the light (photons) are observed. A vacuum isn't a thing, so much as a lack of things. By using the term "in a vacuum" I am really saying "all else being equal with nothing interacting or obstructing the path of the photons".
Correct, the speed of light in a vacuum is the same. I agree with that. What I said was that the speed of light in a vacuum is relative to its being in the vacuum versus its being obstructed. It is a relative absolute. The speed is only an absolute in a vacuum. Relative to it traveling in water or concrete the speed is no longer absolutely the same.
Like some one else said here, things can be absolute within a framework. However, the absolute is relative to the frame work it is within making it a relative absolute.
Everything is both absolute and relative to the framework that makes it so, so it seems.
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Without a "me" to look at it there is no "me" to know it absolutely exists. So the NOW is absolutely relative to the self who can or can not perceive it.
If existence has primacy to consciousness, then the Now still exists prior to consciousness experiencing it.
If the absolute now is not relative to anything then it is ... still.
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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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freddurgan
Techgnostic
Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 3,648
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
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You guys cheated when it came to my example. You left the defined system.
In the Natural number system, not counting negative numbers or 0,
2 + 2 = 4. 2 is a natural number, 2 is a natural number, and they comebine to form a natural number.
However you aren't using that system of values when you say "2 + 2 = 96". You are in the "case of beer" system. Where 1 = 48. In the natural number system, 1 = 1, and 2 = 2. If you can just jump around systems like that then you can say anything, but you can't jump around systems like that or else you lose all validity.
And besides, I think the point is, anything abstract and defined by logic and language is absolute. Anything that is part of our objective reality is relative. The value "2" is absolute, but if I write the number "2" on a peice of paper, it becomes relative. Someone might not be able to read it, or they could be blind.
That's how I'd say it works.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: freddurgan]
#3868581 - 03/04/05 03:23 PM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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That's relative to your form of absolution is it not?
Been chasing our tails this whole time. Maybe someone will be able to catch it eventually.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: freddurgan]
#3868933 - 03/04/05 04:30 PM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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I am not arguing that 2 is not the absolute value of 2 within THAT definitive system. It is. You are correct in saying that absolutes exist within systems.
However, that is relative to ONLY the definitive system it is in. Take it out of that system and two can have another logical value of 48. 2 cases + 2 cases = 96 cans. Within this system of two having a value of 48 2+2=96 makes sense and is absolutely correct, relative to the system IT is in.
Both equations make the absolutes relative to something like a system. In other words, two having the value of two is not absolute within all definitive systems.
Skorp,
I'll come at it this way. The stillness you suggest can not be known as an absolute without someone to know it. That someone makes the absolute of it relative to the one "knowing" it to be so.
If there was no one to know it, how can any be sure it absolutely exists? Once you put an observer or test measure on it, it becomes relatively known, by the observer or the measures of the test.
The stillness may indeed be absolutely still. How can you absolutely know that without relating it to something such as observation? In this sense, the absolute becomes relative to something.
I agree with you that it is an absolute and am saying that it is relative to something also.
I want to see someone separate an absolute from relativity.
I'm questioning if it can be done and I don't see how and this is nuts because I don't believe in impossibilities. The only thing that would clear this up for me is to say that the absolutes and relatives are actually the SAME thing. Then it all becomes possible.
That would mean that all relatives are absolutes and all absolutes are relatives. Ahhh that gives me peace of mind with this. 
I can be absolutely sure that this is relative to me.
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: trendal]
#3868986 - 03/04/05 04:43 PM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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is poop relative??...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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freddurgan
Techgnostic
Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 3,648
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
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Well yeah..obviously if you pull it out of the system it can change. But that's not what I was arguing =D We are in agreement here.
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Registered: 09/11/04
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: freddurgan]
#3869238 - 03/04/05 05:38 PM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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"What is absolute relative, is an relative absolute"
-Unknown :P
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Disclaimer!?
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,814
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: Annapurna1]
#3869389 - 03/04/05 06:05 PM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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yes
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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fearfect
Registered: 01/15/04
Posts: 1,845
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: trendal]
#3870064 - 03/04/05 08:34 PM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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your example 2 cases + 2 cases = 96 cans is not defined in math because you changed your labels. just like 2 inchs + 2 inches does not equal 4 quarts because it doesn't make sense. in order for it to make sense, you have to define a case as being 24 cans, therefore 2 * (24 cans) + 2 * (24 cans) = 96 cans, works because you are working in the same base.
now that that is cleared up, i still stand by my argument that math is well defined and absolute because it does not change.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: fearfect]
#3870667 - 03/04/05 10:18 PM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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No one said it wasn't absolute within its system. The fact that the labels were changed to say I was adding cans by cases was the point demonstrating the relativity of the quantitative value of 2.
The point was that within another mathematical system which you demonstrated the number two can be Representative of a different numerical value. That being said, again, two being the value of two is relative to the system it is being applied within, making it a relative absolute.
Math itself doesn't change as you demonstrated the equation. How we get the absolute numbers is relative to the system we use, making them relative to the mathematical systems being applied.
12 divided by 4 absolutely gets you 3 relative to using the division system. 12 + 4 absolutely gets you 16 relative to using the addition system.
12 and 4 can be turned into 3 of 4 or 16 depending on what mathematical system is being applied to the absolute numbers. That's the relative part, what system the numbers are being run through.
No one is questioning the absoluteness of them that I have read.
Math is a logical sound system of absolutes that are relative to what mathematical system the absolute numbers are being applied to.
All I am saying is that you cannot separate the absoluteness of something from what makes it an absolute and that is, its own relativity, they are the same thing. I don't know what else to say for that to "click".
I do have a question as this is all play for me and mental exercises. Has anyone contradicted Einsteins theory of relativity and been able to prove it's wrong or flawed.
I'd be interested in hearing the logic and reasoning of how they did if they did. I would love to have my mind blown by being shown how something is not an absolute relative to the system making it so.
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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freddurgan
Techgnostic
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Einstein's theory is wrong on the microscopic level, so yes, someone did disprove it...sorta.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: freddurgan]
#3870823 - 03/04/05 10:42 PM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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Would that take us into the area of PSI Calculous then. Oooh Suess? I think it was you who is familiar with this form of abstract math.
I would love to get my head into understanding that shit better.
Any links where I can look into how absolutes are not relative to a system on the microscopic level anyone?
I'm going to do my own googling search. This is a fun mind stretching topic.
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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I did just think of something. Is that because there are no consistent absolutes once you get to the microscopic level or beyond it?
Diploid posted some stuff on the Plank Scale Theory that I think said that. ooooh diploid?
If the microscopic level and deeper doesn't deal with absolutes then, its not relative to absolutes being relative because you need absolutes for that.  damn! I was getting all excited!
I'm still going to search further on all of this.
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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BrendanFlock
Stranger
Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 3,834
Last seen: 10 hours, 14 minutes
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Well I think there is an absolute base.. some would call it Dao.. other than that due to the theory of relativity all objects relate to each other.. in their own ways.. which is a relativism..
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pineninja
Dream Weaver
Registered: 08/17/14
Posts: 12,442
Loc: South 
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Absolute is relative to non absolute and any arguement against is relative to mine.
Within the impossibility of an answer we may find a better question.
There is a beauty in the evenness of this polls results.
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Just a fool on the hill.
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BrendanFlock
Stranger
Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 3,834
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 Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: pineninja]
#24946864 - 01/27/18 07:39 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ahh the intertertiary work itself..
Which would be a form of transcendental meditation..
When you think of something.. you realize the object.. and understand its relations..
When you think of the whole or otherwise the absolute, you realize youve transcended every object..
But can you transcend everything without tearing the fabric of existence?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 34,260
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you can transcend yourself.
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Blue Wrench
Bolt Turner
Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 243
Last seen: 4 years, 8 months
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Everything is absolute! Just saying it to be different, I really have no idea lol.
Although maybe everything is, we just can't understand why because of our limitations in perspective.
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Bods Easy AF Link List
Most teks have too much bullshit. These methods by bod do not.
Edited by Blue Wrench (01/28/18 10:12 AM)
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Ferdinando
Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,415
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is there a limit to that?
this can be translate to refreshing nothing else
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which is bad and which is good
dudelew and
dudelew
Nothing helps in the end like understanding the wisdom-producing aspects of our experience, that is the three charectistics
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Ferdinando
Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,415
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: Ferdinando]
#24952703 - 01/29/18 04:07 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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maybe it creates more positive states
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which is bad and which is good
dudelew and
dudelew
Nothing helps in the end like understanding the wisdom-producing aspects of our experience, that is the three charectistics
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BrendanFlock
Stranger
Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 3,834
Last seen: 10 hours, 14 minutes
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: Ferdinando]
#24953154 - 01/29/18 07:35 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hmmm, refreshing nothingness.. what could be more delicious than that?
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