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There is no Universal, Absolute Truth
    #599209 -

I figured people need to understand this concept.
Readings: Anything by William James

Once again, there is no absolute... think of truth as an instrument of a rational mind. Do not waste your days searching for an infallible system of beliefs. With an unknowable, unspeakable truth, the focus of the ultimate is not on some tangible goal. Instead, the focus is on cognition and thought itself. Thus, there is no core set of unchanging, indubitable beliefs. The process of being a thinking, conscious entity never subsides for a moment and the mind is forced to persist in pondering this peculiar reality of existence.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Sclorch]
    #599355 -

Yes. An open mind is not a good thing to waste.
Thanks Sclorch!

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Sclorch]
    #599523 -

Just because you haven't realized the ultimate truth doesn't mean it doesn't exist...


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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Revelation]
    #599531 -

.... I'm with you Revelation ....

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Revelation]
    #599588 -

But if he realized the ultimate truth and someone else realized a different ultimate truth who would decide which one is right? Truth exists in the minds of the people that believe it. Nature knows nothing of "true" and "false", only what is.

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Sclorch]
    #599589 -

"There is no reality, only perception."
------Dr. Phil McGraw PHD

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Tannis]
    #599592 -

Exactly

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Sclorch]
    #599603 -

Are you saying that the fact there is no absolute truth, is the absolute truth?




Peace.

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: SoulTech]
    #599668 -

"Are you saying that the fact there is no absolute truth, is the absolute truth? "

how very... completely contradictory.

this topic itself is contradictory. if there is no truth or reality, only perception, then it depends on the perceiver what is true, thus if there even is an absolute truth. a truth could never be absolute, only individual specific, if reality is a perception of each individual. wooooahh i'm dizzy

_ry_


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Blas'?trid (bl?s tr?d)
    n.  3rd generation derivitave of a combination of 'bastard' and 'blasted'.  Used as both an insult or an expletive.
    ex.  Blastrid!

Stereopattern  <--My music.

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Sclorch]
    #599679 -

My opinion...just keep open mind and dont worry...eat shrooms
Have a happy day


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----weird-----
Smoking dynamite can seriously blow your mind

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Blastrid]
    #599727 -

"how very... completely contradictory."

Thats what I was thinking.

Is reality the perception of each individual?
I'm not sure but maybe in theory there are two levels of reality:
1.) Ultimate reality- unjudged pure state of existance. No bias, no "lens distortion", simple state of being, Enlightenment?

2.) Human's perception of Ultimate reality (as seen through human bias or "lens")- E.g. (Insert an opinion of reality here)

This contradicts itself because my discription/opinion of #1 or a possible Ultimate reality might actually be #2 or Human's perception of Ultimate reality.

I'm sorry I didn't get anywhere but its something to ponder.

Peace.


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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: SoulTech]
    #599740 -

I?ve always found it to be helpful in learning about life to always look at everything as some giant intertwined dichotomy?. It makes everything relative to who is doing the viewing... Then you cut out as many belief systems that cloud your mind and you start to give everyone their space and start to really see their viewpoint?.

This gets real sticky when you get to murders, child molesters, arrogant Christians or militant Nazi?s? If we all take our own paths because in the end no one, no matter how hard they try will never face life from the same direction then there cannot be one correct path? People will learn when they have done horrible things to each other
The only thing I can find is to be respectful of all people?s choices?
But of course a militant Islamic or a barking Christian will begin to tell you how you will be going to an eternal hell of damnation and fire?.
How burning in flames or being punished in Hell teaches you truth is beyond me seeing as how forcing submission out of you seems like a waste of time for a ?god?
?Believing in god is loving all there is to everything and the weird things they do;

What?s the justification for existence if you get punished if you get it wrong --- If something has the ability to create everything then why not make everyone do it over and over again till they get what life is all about --- and maybe in the end calling it a point is completely the wrong way to look at the meaning of life?

Believe anything you want, but just remeber I love all of you for who you are, not what you believe....


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"...and to the left where up is down now stand a zebra made of shapes of me and silver and the sun so bring no guilt with you up above the flatline let's just hit the sky exploding into one." [ HUM ]

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: SofaJesus]
    #599808 -

"Believing in god is loving all there is to everything and the weird things they do"                              -SofaJesusThanks for the great quote!  I already wrote that one down in my notebook that I just started where I plan to write down as many good quotes as I can find :smile:.  In no way does it imply the existence of a supreme being such as that of most european and western theology (which I find to be somewhat foolish myself, but in no way do I mean any disrespect to those who do believe.  If these beliefs make you happy, then all the more power to you.), yet it rather poetically sums up much of what I believe in.Thanks again :smile: 


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Stand up for your freedoms, join the fight against the War on Drugs!

www.drcnet.org
www.drugpolicyalliance.org
www.drugsense.org

Edited by psilo25 (04/05/02 05:40 PM)

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Tannis]
    #599830 -

It's interesting that you post that. On a very revealing hashish "trip" last night I wrote down something very similar - "Reality is simply how we percieve it to be". Maybe that is the ultimate truth.


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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: SoulTech]
    #599834 -

Yeah, yeah... "Everything is relative" is an absolutist statement...

Ultimate truth is not realizable. It is like the Zen Buddhists say, "The Zen that can be spoken is not the true Zen." This unknowable factor of truth makes a universal absolute impossible.

So you can feel the rhythm of the truth, but you'll never be able to state it. You can only dance to it... A rhythm with a melody as indiscernible as those jukeboxes you might hear off in the distance on a crisp, windless night. It?s the dirty fractal edge of an ultimate knowledge that no being will ever have the privilege to comprehend. The universe is the unwritten LP of hope that the needle of consciousness creates with each new thought. May it never stop spinning.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Sclorch]
    #599847 -

And only when we transcend into the realm of the absolute will we have realized.


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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: psilo25]
    #599874 -

Psilo you wrote, "In now way does it imply the existence of a supreme being such as that of most european and western theology (which I find to be somewhat foolish myself, but in no way do I mean any disrespect to those who do believe. If these beliefs make you happy, then all the more power to you."

That jumps out at me because of the disrespect aspect of it. It sums up everything that causes the worst problems in our world and creates the biggest divisions between our communications with one another -- its so hard sometimes to get around religious differences, even when your trying to be respectful of each other--

Again, I don't really think that there is a being that is God-- but if God had anything to say to us as beings im sure it would have to do with just getting rid of religions

If we're on this planet to life with one another and our greatest conflicts come from religion then get ride of it---- poeple may take that the wrong way but thats just the point---- Does God want us to stick to Dogmas or make our only Dogma compassion to all....... It just seems like the first person to throw out religion because of all its abuse would be God itself......

It's like the ultimate parent saying, "Well if its such a big problem then just stop..." and I think everytime you walk outside and see the beauty of natural and you start to realize just how "CrAzY" the universe is thats God saying give up all your disputes

-- I couldn't think of anything else then the word crazy --- just think of what atoms do all day long and how where all just atoms --- or basically just energy

Or like how your heart just beats all the time till you die -- Sure its natural -- buts its pretty fucking crazy to me -- It makes me laugh and just wanna shake "Gods hand" -- as if God was always laughing just waiting for us to catch up to him,,,,,,,


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"...and to the left where up is down now stand a zebra made of shapes of me and silver and the sun so bring no guilt with you up above the flatline let's just hit the sky exploding into one." [ HUM ]

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: SofaJesus]
    #599914 -

The absolute truth to our lives here on earth is that we, as the human race (and planet earth in general) are but a small, insignificant spec in all of space and time. We are but a brief momentary flash, a mere fluke in the flow of energy in the universe. Because that is essentially what we are, a part of an infinite flow of energy. In our little corner of the universe, the energy gathered so as to create our sun, and a mass with such a perfect distance from this sun that this energy was able to manifest itself as life. The odds are astronomical that this could ever happen, and we are truly blessed with this gift, even if no "body" gave this gift to us, it just happened as a result of energies gathering so perfectly so as to create life. When this life is over, this energy once again becomes a part of this flow. This implies that there is no conscious afterlife whatsoever. This would mean that when we die, our consciousness is erased forever. Many could percieve this as saying that life is meaningless, and there is no hope of any kind, so why should we live? Sure, maybe this life IS meaningless, especially considering that in the continued existence of the universe, earth will have very little influence on the flow of energy. But I prefer to look at it under a different light. Life is such an incredibly rare occurence in the universe, and we have been the fortunate recipients of this rarity. And since this is the only chance at life we have, and we will not live on after our bodies die, we need to live this life to its fullest potential. We need to love "all there is to everything and the weird things they do." We need to enjoy this life above all, since its the only one we will EVER have. Why worry about such petty things as money, jobs, cars, (material posessions in general), religion, etc. Why worry so much about every little obstacle you encounter in life? Just enjoy it, go with the flow, do whatever it is you need to enjoy this life (keeping respect for others in mind, of course), because this is your ONLY chance. ENJOY IT AND FULFILL IT ANYWAY YOU CAN.


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Stand up for your freedoms, join the fight against the War on Drugs!

www.drcnet.org
www.drugpolicyalliance.org
www.drugsense.org

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: psilo25]
    #599936 -

Although I like your outlook on life, it is not absolute.
Nietzsche said that life is suffering and that we should revel in the suffering. It worked for him, so I can't really knock it. Thus, life does not have to be a joyous thing and for many people such joy is rarely experienced. I cannot tell these people that they are wrong for not rejoicing as bombs rain down from the sky and vaporize their mud-wall domiciles.

Be a hetero-absolutist and be right... well, rightER than everyone else.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Sclorch]
    #599951 -

" Today, ideas, and gurus, flash quickly through human consciousness,
raising the questions: What is true? What is real? An answer springs forth from the confusion: Everything is True, and Nothing is True. --Joy Whitney (Starlink:
The Book of knowledge of Anton, Communique from the Pleiades)
I found this paperback, and always found it silly, yet some of it pretty cool.

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Sclorch]
    #599953 -

To me, the idea of our lives simply being a part of the infinite flow of energy in the universe is absolute. It's not arguable in my opinion, but I also have no problem with others having different beliefs, since those beliefs are in themselves a part of this infinite flow we are part of.As for enjoying this life as much as possible, this may not be absolute. It is most likely a product of my upbringing in Western culture, since the American dream is basically doing whatever you want in any way you see fit, as long it's legal (or you don't get caught). I don't expect the people who are having bombs dropped on them to rejoice in life, they have little reason to do so. This is so very sad. Religion seems to be the cause of much of this warfare. It's a product of people not living according to the ideals that I presented in my previous post. (This is not to say that I AM RIGHT, and there is no other way, it's just what I believe in) These conflicts would never arrise if people could just realize what a rare, precious gift this life is, and stop making such a big deal over every little thing. That's humanity's major problem; we are just simply too willing to get anal over every little detail of our existence. It's just plain ridiculous if you ask me...If we continue to live like this, I really do hope that "mom's gonna fix it all soon". Am I now guilty of disobeying my own philosophies?


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Stand up for your freedoms, join the fight against the War on Drugs!

www.drcnet.org
www.drugpolicyalliance.org
www.drugsense.org

Edited by psilo25 (04/05/02 06:48 PM)

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: psilo25]
    #599991 -

You worry too much...

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: psilo25]
    #599993 -

...but so do i, so don't worry

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: psilo25]
    #600015 -

"Why worry about such petty things as money, jobs, cars, (material posessions in general), religion, etc. Why worry so much about every little obstacle you encounter in life? Just enjoy it, go with the flow, do whatever it is you need to enjoy this life (keeping respect for others in mind, of course), because this is your ONLY chance. ENJOY IT AND FULFILL IT ANYWAY YOU CAN."

I like the idea, but how do you apply it to "reality"?

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: frogsheath]
    #600027 -

Nowadays, it is virtually impossible to live without money, cars, etc. I use my car everyday to get to work so I can make money. It's part of my life, and I can accept that. So do most people. However, I refuse to let these factors control me. If my car brakes down, so what, I'll get it fixed, and in the meantime I'll find other means of transportation. If I lose my job, I'm not gonna cry over it, I'll go search for another one. I was recently robbed by heroin addicts for approximately $700 worth of change that I had been saving for over 3 years. It sucked. I worked hard for that money. But you know what? Within a few days, I had all but forgotten about it. I moved on. I felt no need to make a big deal out of this situation. Why should I? What good is it gonna do? Just move on and keep living life. It's only life, no big deal.


--------------------
Stand up for your freedoms, join the fight against the War on Drugs!

www.drcnet.org
www.drugpolicyalliance.org
www.drugsense.org

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: psilo25]
    #600052 -

Be a hetero-absolutist and be right... well, rightER than everyone else.

That you are alive and conscious seems to be "true". That you "think" and "feel"
and "communicate" these "facts" with others seems to verify this. Is this not Absolute?
"I" , for one, am verifying this (I think). I have no idea who you are, yet I am trying to
"talk" to you (based on the words that I read on this screen). Am I Non-existant? Are
you Non-existant? I think not. Therefore, I THINK we exist. That is "Absolute". WHY we exist is not as clear. Therefore, the question should be HOW we exist.
You have it. YOU are a REAL person. WE are creating the world by our thoughts.

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: psilo25]
    #600095 -

But YES! You are RIGHT by not taking it too seriously. You are forging a reality that
will have many good offspring. I love you for that! You are totally cool in my book.

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: frogsheath]
    #600274 -

The method of doubt runs strong through your veins. Don't ever let that go to waste. Everything can be doubted... even experience itself (i.e. "this is all a dream"). The pragmatic viewpoint is the only philosophy that both embraces the process of thinking and true freedom without borders. Metaprogramming... realize your own thought process. This is tricky, I don't think it is possible to directly teach a person how to do this. You can only guide them. As trendy as it is... from the Matrix: "I can only show you the door, you must open it." or something like that. A step further than the red pill vs. blue pill choice- Choose to be shown the door, then choose to go through it. Both choices have to made by the individual, they cannot be forced upon them... I don't care how much acid they take.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Sclorch]
    #600364 -

First, sorry for poor English ( I have a lot of trouble to express my self in foreign language but I will try )
Who I'm I? Im I just meat who think that is something more than meat.
I believe I lived many times before ( I saw that ) but that can be delusion that my brain created to make me feel that I have/had some purpose in life.
I don't believe in "God" as some long bearded old dude who like to stick his nose in dirty underwear so he can punish us for our mistakes, ( most things I learned in my life is through mistakes ) I believe in Earth as living organism ( which is by the way dying slowly and painfully ) ......but who Im I to believe. Shit...... I feel things but find that is so hard to say what I feel. And ultimate truth ? I don't know......somebody said that life is never ending learning and I agree. Looking everything from bright side is something I found necessary to stay sane in an insane world.
I wonder..... when I say to people how money is trivial and cant make you happy ( for one short moment can....but after? ) they look at me with THAT look( like I killed they family and pets too) and say " Don't bullshit ".
maybe this is somewhat off topic
( SofaJesus get off that sofa and spread the word.....no, wait, they could nail you for that )
Have a happy day and open mind and don't worry.



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----weird-----
Smoking dynamite can seriously blow your mind

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Revelation]
    #600407 -

There is no "good" news.
There is no "bad" news.
There is only news..........

We are the deciding factor........it's only perception.......not reality......

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Tannis]
    #600432 -

Yeah, I agree with that. But couldn't god be considered the one true thing? Isn't god the ultimate truth?


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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Revelation]
    #600436 -

I hear you and I agree......

I think that once we get past all the different ways of perceiving things.......what is left is lasting.....and my personal opinion is that ------ that is God......

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Tannis]
    #600439 -

Right on man.


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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Tannis]
    #600471 -

But do you think we can achieve this transcendence of individual perception in life? Or does one need to exit this physical world through death? Or perhaps do psychedelics take you a couple steps in that direction, showing you how things could be perceived? I know when I smoked 5-MeO-DMT I felt like I was experiencing the universe as it truly is, and I definitely felt a oneness with and realization of God (or all that is). But yes, this only shows you the door. To feel this way in everyday life is much more difficult.

We are all mirrors of God, and we each reflect it in a slightly different way. Perhaps if we trace our perception all the way to the source, you will find truth (if it is possible in this life).

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #600494 -

I know you weren't asking me but I just feel like throwing in my opinion... I would say that it's impossible to reach the truth in this life, however I do think that the purpose of life is to get closer and closer to it, and this goes for past lives and lives-to-be aswell. The reason I would say it's impossible is because when you have reached that state you will know nothing else or be aware of anything else. You will exist as and in a state of pure....something (love would be my best guess). In this life you are always pretty much aware of the world around you and of your own ego.... when you reach the truth details like this won't exist.


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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #600507 -

Some people call it morbid, but life is all about death......

You don't have to take that completely at face value... If i sat around just waiting for death and never doing anything then I wouldn't learn anything.... You'll never know yourself till you die

.... I just think people should think about it before they claim to know themselves, because you'll never experience everything in life. You can't live your life as a man and a women and a cancer victim and as the happiest person on the planet...

You only get a glimce of what you might be the whole time your alive and then the shit hits the fan when you crash your car and impale yourself on a girder and bleed to death ..... Sometimes I really worry about pain and i don't really wanna get my arms chopped off or get beat to death, but you never know whats gonna come your way

Drugs like Shrooms and DMT allow you to think in different ways
Drugs like E just make you happy beyond what you should be --- I really like E, but I also realize that its just pushing away all the negitive thought and whats life without the sadness or the boring parts......

I dunno.... we just don't really know whats going on in the first place or where we will end up, but i know people are wrong when they drop bomb on each other and live their lifes for the fruits of money....


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"...and to the left where up is down now stand a zebra made of shapes of me and silver and the sun so bring no guilt with you up above the flatline let's just hit the sky exploding into one." [ HUM ]

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: SofaJesus]
    #600575 -

Drugs like Shrooms and DMT allow you to think in different ways
Drugs like E just make you happy beyond what you should be --- I really like E, but I also realize that its just pushing away all the negitive thought and whats life without the sadness or the boring parts......

Rarely will someone admit this. Most people who take E do it to escape... to live only for now. As long as you realize what it does (possibly too happy) and admit it, the chance of you living that aesthetic-sucker life is slim.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Revelation]
    #600605 -

OK, I buy that. But do you think everybody will understand this universal truth/love/whatever it is at death? Or do you have to reach a certain point of understanding in this life? I imagine Buddha or Gandhi would, but what about people who live life caught up in the power struggles or wealth-driven mindsets that dominate our culture? In other words, are we all the same in the end or are people at different levels of spiritual awareness?

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: SofaJesus]
    #600613 -

Life is the soul's way to know itself experientially.
-paraphrase from Conversations with God

Hmm...after looking through CWG I think I have an answer to my own question. The soul knows everything, it always has. This life is the opportunity for it to give form and experience to that which it knows.

"The soul is after the feeling. Not the knowledge, but the feeling. It already has the knowledge, but knowledge is conceptual. Feeling is experiential. The soul wants to feel itself, and thus to know itself in its own experience."

I think the life process is kind of like learning a new language. Deep down you know the knowledge but you are trying to learn how to translate this knowledge into action, into experience. Some people are better than others, because they've had more practice (in other lives perhaps). So I think that everyone knows the truth deep down, but living in this world of physicality obstructs that truth.

So yeah. Revelation, I think I very much agree with you.

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: SofaJesus]
    #600747 -

You only get a glimce of what you might be the whole time your alive and then the shit hits the fan when you crash your car and impale yourself on a girder and bleed to death ..... Sometimes I really worry about pain and i don't really wanna get my arms chopped off or get beat to death, but you never know whats gonna come your way

How 'bout it SofaJesus! That awakens the consciousness from complacency: knowing death is around the corner.

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: frogsheath]
    #600768 -

Kinda like the soul is this endless void of nothing that contains everything

For some - "thing" to be infinite nothing (including the "thing") can exist in any shape or parameter.... like if someone says I have an infinite amount of pictures? That doesn't work cuz you can't think of a big line of pictures stretching along for infinity or just one giant picture? Or if someone says line up an infinite amount of beds(like on the cover of the Floyd album)
Once you get to the starting line and put down the first bed you?ve lost?. You would just be putting beds down for ever ? You would get lost in an endless loop?.

So I think in the end there is only one single thing and that?s 1 soul and its creating subjective dreams within itself? And about that endless loop thing ? I think that is an important piece to what existence really is --- The whole idea that we?re just vibrating energy and stuff? but you all know that shit ? we talk about the circle of life all the time? When you get that felling when you?re tripping or if you?re meditating, it?s that emotion, that overwhelming sense of all I can say right now is ?thank you? or ?of course? and you laugh a lot --- I think that?s you being shown the door --- I think the ?trick? is getting to that emotion when you are sober?.I should work on meditating?


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"...and to the left where up is down now stand a zebra made of shapes of me and silver and the sun so bring no guilt with you up above the flatline let's just hit the sky exploding into one." [ HUM ]

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: SofaJesus]
    #600800 -

>>So I think in the end there is only one single thing and that?s 1 soul and its creating subjective dreams within itself

That reminds me of a quote from a website that i really liked:
"God is an Ocean, You are a cup of water out of that Ocean"


Peace.

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: SoulTech]
    #601069 -

i am drunk.
but i think you are missing the point... okay both hands...homerow....

THERE IS NO ABSOLUTE=THERE IS NO SUPREME BEING known as God. God is a mindset that most are not aware of...
Or maybe I'm just some drunk sob ranting about shite that can't be understood anyways.....


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Sclorch]
    #601167 -

How about this
Look at life as this picture. At first you see just one thing and nothing more.
But at closer look you see something more. And now you cant see SAME picture in same way ( newer again ).


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----weird-----
Smoking dynamite can seriously blow your mind

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: WeirdShroomer]
    #601309 -

Thats a pretty cool picture -I see the other figures in it-- but what does it signify?

Is it supposed to represent a struggle between opposites in your mind, cuz everything going on is in the square around his head?

Do you have info on what the artist was trying to communicate, like whats the piece of paper at the bottom with words on it? When was it made?


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"...and to the left where up is down now stand a zebra made of shapes of me and silver and the sun so bring no guilt with you up above the flatline let's just hit the sky exploding into one." [ HUM ]

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: SofaJesus]
    #601342 -

You should go to google and type optical illusions.
They have tons of pictures like this....
I LOVE them all.
Search and you will find.
And what was in artists head... I can only guess, like you. ( but it look like strugle )
To me it was just example how life is very similar... everything is here around you you just need to look .
Sorry for not be so helpful
I guess I was again off topic..dough

"World isnt black&white
World isnt gray
World is in color"


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----weird-----
Smoking dynamite can seriously blow your mind

Edited by WeirdShroomer (04/07/02 02:29 PM)

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Sclorch]
    #601427 -

I believe i know what your point is, although that doesn't mean I necessarily agree with it. I found your post intriguing and I appreciate new ideas and opinions, but it really is only an opinion. The only thing I have a firm belief in at this point is uncertainty. I have found that keeping an open mind promotes growth. I plan on growing a lot.


Peace.

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: WeirdShroomer]
    #601428 -

I can see it both ways, but i'm just clever. Or maybe it's something to do with cannabis relaxing the eyes. Could be. Who knows. I don't.


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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Sclorch]
    #601488 -

how can you say there is no truth if you have not seen it, no its not a typo.


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insanity with a plan, a plan to stop exercising truth as compared to breathing thin air, but to experience truth as all there is to experience, for what do i not already have that exsists? All i can do is enjoy the ride.

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Sclorch]
    #601728 -

I dont know... I'd say this is true


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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #601961 -

I think that you can "walk in the ways of God" in this life if you don't require God to behave scientifically......approach it from a kind of wonder, or mysterious unexplained something....its how miracles are produced......we don't know how it works but it works. God and ultimate truth can be known in this light but its the hazey dream world light where we just can't seem to put our finger on it..........
If you expect to walk on water, at some point you will have to step out of the boat...
Then too, remember that many spiritual truths, can be experienced in different ways............if I need food the loaves can be multiplied, the shelter can pass out bread, the neighbor can give me bread, I can earn money to buy bread, I can find money to buy bread, or I can find bread, or bake bread...........

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: SoulTech]
    #602374 -

The only thing I have a firm belief in at this point is uncertainty. I have found that keeping an open mind promotes growth.

Uncertainty, growth, openness, that's right.
That's what this is about.

As Nietzsche says in his preface to Ecce Homo:
"Hitherto the lie of the ideal has been the curse of reality; by means of it man's most basic instincts have become mendacious and false; so much so that those values have come to be worshipped which are most exactly antagonistic to the ones which would ensure man's prosperity, his future, and his great right to that future."

Absolutes encourage one to stop questioning. When that happens, the neurological pathways become fixed. This limits the mind substantially. For instance, how many people (much older than yourself) have you run into that were as open-minded as you? I've met less than a few. I know of a few more that are still living (until recently): Ken Kesey and Hunter S. Thompson- to name two contemporaries that I haven't met and most likely never will; their openness is quite apparent in their writing. What I am trying to show is that there is this sick tendency for people to permanently cling to a mindset. Thinking in absolutes (I think) is an almost sure way of reinforcing that tendency.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Edited by Sclorch (04/08/02 10:04 PM)

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Sclorch]
    #602439 -

Absolutes encourage one to stop questioning.

Very good point. Believing in anything is a closing up of the mind to new ideas. Entertain ideas, contemplate them, but never believe them as absolute truth because you have no idea what other information might be out there that you don't know.

Beliefs are dangerous.
Beliefs allow the mind to stop functioning.
A non-functioning mind is clinically dead.
Believe in nothing...
(Tool)

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Sclorch]
    #602642 -

Very true, I defineately agree with you. Although a truely open mind also has to entertain the possibility of an absolute truth existing. Otherwise its a limitation and would be the same thing you are preaching against just in a reverse fashion. Anything is possible or is it.

Peace.

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Sclorch]
    #602691 -

This is a stream of thought that I put down on paper while in class (highschool) the other day. (BTW I highly recommend trying this to anyone/everyone who has ever felt the urge to scream out at those around them be it to tell them to all go to hell, or that they're all a bunch of blind sock puppets, or both. It gives you the chance to examin your thoughts so when you do choose to say something it doesn't come out like rambling gibberish. Remember, no one likes to screamed at, though sometimes they need to be.)

[revolution is not a badword
revolution is a natural action brought about through random thoughts constantly searching for a better means with which to sustain life
revolution brings about destruction which leads to regrowth which is necessary to avoid stagnation
recollection avoids repetition and ecourages expirimentation
interaction discourages the trappings of masturbation
stand up; sit down
shout out; shut up
build; destroy
live; die
birth; kill
laugh; curse
fuck; fight
do something anything but do it
read; write
speak; listen
communicate
exchange information
ideas, thoughts, theories, beliefs, desires, dreams, ambitions, fears
take action even if it is to be inactive
turn on; turn off
tune in; tune out
look around know your world
understand that you may never understand
don't make plans make love
react, bend, flex, blow with the breeze, move with the tide
be prepared to be unprepared...]

I think most people could benifit from even a slight change in their perspective. They may not find some great revelation, but they might at least stop shiting on things that don't fit their picture. I don't know if this makes sense or whether this has any relevancy to the topic, but I know I had a point when I started it. Oh well, you all have interpritational skills, you figure it out, or not. As for me, I going to go plan a 4/20 teach-in/riot. Maybe it'll change somebody's outlook and maybe not.

(Don't take this too seriously. I'm sober and my judgement is impared)

BTW I would like to propose a moment of silent reflection on the late Ken Kesey and his life.
................................................................................................................

"The first Prankster rule is that nothing lasts, and if you start there and really believe that nothing lasts you try to achieve nothing at all times." - Ken Kesey


--------------------
In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom.

Thou art God (but so am i :wink:)

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Revelation]
    #731765 -

a contimuum of miracles that occur as revelations which brings oneself closer to the atonement and begins by destroyed alll true miscreations and false miscreations. the atonement, loss of spiritual essence of man, i.e. bible, eating the apple, representative of.......
will find oneness with godself

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: llib]
    #732568 -

What the fuck are you talking about?
I really don't know where to begin with you. Your posts don't make enough sense to not hold water.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Sclorch]
    #732794 -

You are stating yourself an absolute thruth now.
Make up your mind.


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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: LOBO]
    #732898 -

You are stating yourself an absolute thruth now.
Make up your mind.

Thruth... oh, truth.
I think I made it clear that I didn't understand... doesn't sound universal to me. But it could be construed as that. That's probably due to the structure of language though. Most languages are black&white and treat concepts as absolute. For my denial of a universal absolute to make sense, it must be stated in such a way: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth. Also, you read my post as on/off, black/white, for/against... the words I wrote don't necessarily imply such an interpretation- hence, another easily seen language limit (this is not unique to English). Maybe when you read anything I post, you should incorporate the concept of probability into your interpretation. It's a continuum, not either/or.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #732922 -

Without a lifetime spent in the continuous process of Realizing Truth, Realization (which comes by degrees, or spontaneously) will NOT occur at death. Death is not Liberation or transcendence. Death may certainly "occasion" a final transcendence in one who has practiced Realization throughout life by the elimination of all the psychophysical 'interference' that our mind-body presents to the Witness, or Spirit, or whomever you want to call our Transcendental Self - but death, qua death is not The Way.

It is much more likely that the process of dying to the physical body-self and world, will bring to the fore more subtle experiences that the average person has never become familiar with. Most people will become disoriented and frightened by these dreamlike or fantasmagoric inner scenes. The average materially-bound person who has never valued dreams, visions, psychedelic experiences, religious experiences, or altered states of any kind, will not know that [s]he was supposed to become familiar with these 'places' in preparation for the 'big trip' of death. The Heavens and Hells of Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, (and Judaism and Islam to a lesser degree of emphasis); the Bardos of Tibetan Buddhism; the Astral-Etheric-Causal Sheaths of classical Yoga; the simpler Ka and Ba souls of ancient Egyptian religion; and many other bodies of knowledge, all attest to domains which we must learn to navigate with a simple guiding principle (such as love/light) since our discursive minds will perish with the body. Hence the necessity of pure and simple faith: Christ - The Clear Light of the Void - Atman - The Six Syllable of the Great Mantra Om Mani Padma Hum - etcetera.

A lifetime is required to Realize - to make Real - an indivisible, simple, 'psychocosmic' 'beacon,' 'point,' or eternal frame of reference that in Reality indwells us, and endures our Earthly demise. This is our 'ferry' to 'the Other Shore. A life lived primarily for things material is going to result in quite a shock, at death. Whether such a person has chosen to ackowledge it or not, we are a tripartite being of body, mind and spirit. Let us neglect no part of us.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Tannis]
    #734612 -

true plus false miscreations equals a perceived reality

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Re: There is no Universal, Absolute Truth [Re: Revelation]
    #734615 -

true miscreations + false miscreations = perceived reality

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