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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Reality is your best friend
    #3951491 - 03/22/05 12:13 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Everyone has imaginary ideas of himself as being this or
that sort of person. And you can be sure that the images are
highly complimentary! But since they are purely imaginary,
they are highly sensitive to assault by reality.


Reality helps pretenders who want to stop pretending. This is a
world of pretense. You have noticed this. People pretend they
are not scared, pretend they are not hurt, pretend they are not
nervous. Wearing masks of strength and confidence to impress
people, they cry inside. Pretense is harmful and unnecessary.
It fills space that should be filled with Reality. Wherever you
see your own pretense, drop it. Its pain will vanish.

~Vernon Howard [edited by SM]



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3951916 - 03/22/05 01:43 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Wow, this Vernon man sure is one sided and needs a reality check of his own. I can easily say that 9 out of 10 people I know have imaginary ideas about themselves and let me tell you they are not complimentary.

I swear, low self image and esteem is epidemic these days. The media and Hollywood paints all of these prefect pictures no ones reality can measure up to and people think they are sub par in comparison.

If I had a quarter for every time I heard someone whine from insecurity and fear about how they are not good enough at or for this or that and about how they are doing this and that wrong I'd be worth millions.

These are people who are doing very well and fine jobs within their endeavors comparatively speaking and are quite able from my view, yet they don't see themselves that way and are to afraid to realize their actual potential and opt to get down on themselves for some reason. They really seem to be struggling with low self image issues.

Granted, some people may have self images that exceed the reality of their living potential or actuality to flatter themselves, but most I encounter have self images that are set well below the actuality of their living potential. I'm personally tiring of people getting down on themselves and wish they would step up to their truer reality That's better then they think it is.

Really, I think low self esteems and insecurities are epidemic in America and rarely do I come across self image exaggerated over confident types.

Maybes it's become politically correct to put oneself down or something. Maybe its egoically safer to be insecure for these types. You can't get knocked down or fall if you hang low. I think it became the trendy cool thing to do with the grunge movement of the 90s. :lol:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3951925 - 03/22/05 01:46 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: Silversoul]
    #3952371 - 03/22/05 06:09 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

when I think of reality
it usually has nothing to do with me


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OfflineDelusion_of_Self
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3952407 - 03/22/05 07:12 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Reality is far beyond our senses. Far beyond our mind. Far our beyound imagination. You do not need to imagine since it does not need to be created, it does not depend on your perception to be real.

The reality we experience daily is subjective, it is constructed in our minds. It is individual. We might interpret it in similar ways because we have learned to do so, but what is individual is not true to all.

Now who is your best friend?


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"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar


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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3952411 - 03/22/05 07:17 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

reality does not exist. it's a construction that holds our minds together and allows our interaction with the world and others. in itself it is nothing, maya, the illusion.


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OfflineDelusion_of_Self
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: a_h_w]
    #3952417 - 03/22/05 07:28 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Then why are you proving it does not exists? If this is just your imagination...


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"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar


Edited by Delusion_of_Self (03/22/05 07:29 AM)


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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3952422 - 03/22/05 07:43 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I'm not proving nothing and illusion is not imagination. illusion is created through the sense sphere. and yes in our minds an imagined thing can be as real as anything else in the world.
reality as our view and interpretation of the world cannot be taken too seriously.


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OfflineDelusion_of_Self
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3952442 - 03/22/05 08:08 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

You seem to contradict yourself. You say it does not exists, then you give an explanation why. You are proving your assumption by reasoning.


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"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar


Edited by Delusion_of_Self (03/22/05 08:09 AM)


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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3952470 - 03/22/05 08:55 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

like I've said before, I'm not proving anything here. and unless you explain yourself better, I will never understand where you're getting at. my statements, taken seriously or not, are quite easy to figure out, yours on the other hand, remain a mystery to me. maybe you should prove your assumptions by reasoning.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3953929 - 03/22/05 03:54 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
when I think of reality
it usually has nothing to do with me




That's another interesting take on this. Remove yourself from the equation and then what is there? Now, when you want to enter the equation as another number, what number do you come in as? Do you come in as a zero and then values are added along the way? Who is the giver of these self values?

Do you let the other numbers give you your value or do you give yourself your own value within the equation? According to Vern, he is suggesting that "your best friend reality" will somehow tell you what you really are within it" Does this mean then that you get to tell other zeros entering the equation what value they are?

What if I think you're really a 5 and someone else thinks your really a 10 and another thinks you're really a 3? Does that mean anything to you? Should it mean anything to you? Is the average of them your real value making you a 6? What if you think you are a 2 or an 8? If you are in 8 in your mind and view, should you pretend to be 6 because your best friend reality says that's what real about you?

What is real when it comes to the image we hold of ourselves? How do you judge it and who judges it? 

Am I a Cindy, wife of Todd, mother of Arielle or a complex biological form of chemicals and elements? What does my best friend reality think I am.  What image should I hold of myself to be the real with myself?

Am I a lousy wife and mother or a good wife and mother? Do I determine this or does my husband and daughter or my mother father comparing me to his wife and mom? Who is this reality guy anyway because according to Vern, he knows what image of me is the real one I should hold. How do I find him?

Isn't it I who chooses what I want to be through imagining ideals and then pretend being what that is to me until I become it for real? When does it shift from being pretense to the real thing. When am I a person pretending being a mom until I become a real mom. Whats the difference?

As a wife and mother I am playing a role in someones life. Playing roles requires play acting, requires pretending, requires putting on a pretense of what a wife and mother really is. What is a wife and mother really? Every real culture in our reality has a different image of it. Which is the real one I should use as my measure to make sure I am not living in false self flattery? Who determines this?

It needs to be determined before I can even know if the image I have of myself as a wife and mother is over imagined to flatter myself or not? If I am scared that I am doing a bad job playing those roles, should I get real and appear as if I haven't a clue of what I am doing? Do you think myself, husband and daughter would prefer a self confident wife and mother who acts as if she knows what she is doing and doing it well or one that is a basket case of self doubt, worry and insecurity? (hypothetical)

If myself, my husband and daughter think I am doing a good job and I hold this self flattering image of myself as a result but my family friends and community think I am doing a bad job because I am not appearing as the image they hold of a good wife and mother, which is the real image I should be getting real with?

What if society holds an image that a real and good  wife wears makeup everyday to look really beautiful for her husband? What if my husband thinks I really look better without it? What if I really don't care and think I look horrible with or without it? Which is the real image of me I should be getting real with to be in true reality? How I actually look of course. And how is that?

Does reality tell us whats real or do we tell ourselves and each other what we really think something really is? What is it really? What is the difference? Isn't reality "made up" of and by us?

We can look to the natural world as the closest we can come I suppose. It would be natural for me to lay down with any guy that makes me hot, wouldn't it? But then, what of my self image as a wife? Am I being a good wife or a bad wife or just a real and honest wife? If I don't do it, am I just pretending to be a wife to flatter myself as being a good wife?

What would my husband say if I said to him, "Honey, Vern Howard says I need to stop pretending to be something I am not to flatter myself and my marriage. He says I should get real with my true feelings and I feel really horney for that guy over there so I am just going to go do him to keep it real and then you and I can go catch a bite to eat"

My "real" ass would be suffering through divorce court, single parenthood, finding a job and worst of all living a life without my best friend and romantic lover there to share it with me.

As a mother, it would be natural for me to nurse my child anywhere any time for as long as it likes. If I do keep it real with my natural feelings not as to create a false and flattering self image as a mother, am I an obscene and offensive perverted mother for whipping my boobs out in public for my 5 year old son to suck on?
Naturalist would call this the image of a good wholesome mom. Society (consensus reality) would call this the image of a bad freakish mom.

Which is the true reality I would measure my sense of real motherly image to to ease any pain of false pretense I may be deluding myself with?

If my husband pretends to have respect and admiration for his bosses because he flatters himself as being a hot shot employee and wants to portray that false image to get ahead, but really thinks his bosses are morons who have their heads up their asses, should he just cut the pretenses and get real with them? Will Vern Howard give him a job when he gets fired?

Would my husbands "best friend named reality", set him up to get fired from his job to ease his pain? What is his best friend reality going to do next to ease his pain of unemployment and loss of financial income?

To ease his pain, he is going to have to get real in that, he is going to have to pretend to be a great employee and flatter the shit out of himself if he is to get hired making the same money again. This is reality! Most would say that is the true reality of the world we live in.

Sure, he can make it up and say, "Because I think I know how to run such a company best and to stay real with myself so I can quit pretending to respect people I don't, I will be my own boss."

Is his best friend reality going to give him a real business to run? He once took reality into his own hands and created his own and it was the most sufferable experience of his life being his own boss. He found that you end up working for customers, employees and suppliers who are morons with their heads up their asses. He was free to be real with people whose professional ethics he didn't respect alright and lived with his face red on high boil for 3 years.

His blood pressure is much healthier and he is happier living in pretense again. Pretense can be like a placebo for the real deal if you believe in it.

Reality gives us nothing but the planet and weather and opportunities to take and make of it and ourselves in reference to it what we will. Reality is a no thing until we take from its raw materials and make it into something we call real.  We do this by imagining ideals and then we put on the pre-tending to become them.

Most of what we do in false pretense and creating self flattering images is to keep ourselves from being thrown into a reality of suffering when you think about it. 

Vern Howard may be giving us advice to find the greatest sense of the true self to ease the sufferings of false pre-tense, but the funny thing is, that we have to get real with what that would mean to reality as we know it. Doing so wold be the kiss into suffering.

Like I am going to tell my mom who thinks she is a great cook, in her self image that her cooking sucks so she can get real with herself and ease her pain. She feels good with her cooking abilities and is in no suffering because of them. My telling her I think they really suck so she can have a more real self image, can only cause her suffering. What is Mr. Vern thinking here?

I think , reality as we know it is one giant false pretense. To use it as a measure of how we are being false is ridiculous for that reason, like the blind leading the blind it is.

You know what is real? Our need to source food, water, breathable air and shelter from extreme weather elements or else we will suffer and die. Everything revolved around that and beyond that is fluff and stuff we made up to meet and exceed those needs based on our natural ability to image ideas and ideals and to act as if we know what we are doing in the process. Its pretty darn enjoyable and fullfilling too once you get the hang of it.

Everyone is pretending to be something beyond a biological form made up of chemicals and elements that requires food, water air and shelter to survive. Its because of our ability to imagine ideals and put on pretenses that we not only survive but thrive.

As long as you are getting food water, shelter and breathable air, you have no real reason to be suffering. That's made up too!

Why couldn't Vern just say, "Your best friend reality is made up by YOU and the people around you" So, make one up that cares for, nurtures and supports you and makes you feel good. Consider that , because you and the people around you make it up, any suffering you and others experience is just made up by yourselves and you can make it up into something else more pleasant if you wish any time you want by playing pretend on the way to really becoming it?

My husband made his bosses up into morons he could have no professional respect for. Why couldn't he make them up into brilliant business men who he could respect? Whats the real truth of their professional projective imaging anyway? My husband chooses to make them up into real morons and so he suffers working for the morons he created in his reality. So be it.

Isn't this Vern Howard guys philosophies the one swami most resonates with? I am beginning to understand swami better now and why he and I clash.  :tongue:

Hey swami, ya know why spirituality hasn't been serving you as you say? You picked the wrong philosopher guru to follow. This guy is teaching people that there is ONE TRUE SET reality for everyone to measure their "authenticity by" to keep from self delusion and suffering.  What a crock of Bull Dung!

If anyone choosing to make this imaginary best friend called reality into some real, I'll tell you what this best friend is going to do to you. It will send you a bunch of mixxed messages about yourself and the world confusing you into insufferable hell until you start telling it what its going to be for you and what you are going to be within in it.

It will stab you in the back until you learn to stop trusting and listening to it and start trusting and listening to yourself.

It will leave you to rot when the chips are down like a fair weather "best friend" until you learn to start being there for yourself and how to command the weather in your own life. The forcast is bright warm and sunny in mine everyday!

When you realize that your best friend reality is YOU and what you make of it by what you make of yourself, then you'll start cooking up delicious realities like a master chef! :thumbup:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3959858 - 03/23/05 03:38 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Wow, this Vernon man sure is one sided and needs a reality check of his own. I can easily say that 9 out of 10 people I know have imaginary ideas about themselves and let me tell you they are not complimentary.

This statement implies little to no consideration was taken into other possible [and more realistic] interpretations. [And that you missed the point, entirely.]
If you know who Vernon Howard is ? a teacher ? then I find it even more puzzling [that is, with certain base assumptions in regards to your intellect] that you would, in all honesty, think that Vernon is "one-sided and needs a reality check".
If this is the case, then could you please show us why you ignored all other likely possibilities and only focused on the one that you have?

It is a bit odd imagining the rationale, reasoning, and logic that you used [assuming you did use such tools of thought, after all, it would be a bit unfair to place a permanent label of nescience on the on-going process that you are].
?Wow, Vernon must be that stupid, because I couldn?t possibly conceive of any other possibility ? never-mind that there may be some misunderstanding, or that the messenger simply didn?t provide more details ? that?s just too mundane and rational of a route. I think I will just choose the possibility that offers more entertainment value?. La la la.?

I will wait for the appropriate question from you that you could?ve asked at first, to rectify your confusion in regards to the Vernon quote.

Moving along to your second post?

What is real when it comes to the image we hold of ourselves? How do you judge it and who judges it?

The reality of these images we hold of ourselves are illusory, as they are conjured representations of a true aspect of ourselves that exists without need for definition. No one is there to judge these images because the judge and the judgment are also illusory images produced by the mind.

Am I a Cindy, wife of Todd, mother of Arielle or a complex biological form of chemicals and elements?

Why the need for such a sophomoric dichotomy?

What image should I hold of myself to be the real with myself?

Instead of supporting an illusory image, allow reality to support you, not your self-held image of yourself, as well as your emotion-backed addictions to security, sensation, or power, not to mention your demands of reality [as if you are in any position to demand anything of the way reality naturally unfolds].

Am I a lousy wife and mother or a good wife and mother? Do I determine this or does my husband and daughter or my mother father comparing me to his wife and mom?

Ultimately, only you verify the quality of your mother/wife functions. Is your child well clothed, fed and cared for? Is your husband well supported and cared for? Is everybody ? including you ? functional and happy?

Who is this reality guy anyway because according to Vern, he knows what image of me is the real one I should hold. How do I find him?

Some say it is God. I could go on to tell you that reality is actually impersonal, but I doubt you?ll actually snap out of your fuzzy-logic thinking modes. So go on, personalize reality all you want ? live on the map and not on the territory. Thrive in idolatry!

Isn't it I who chooses what I want to be through imagining ideals and then pretend being what that is to me until I become it for real? When does it shift from being pretense to the real thing. When am I a person pretending being a mom until I become a real mom. Whats the difference?

Being a mother is function, not some play to be acted out. A function does not require a role. Furthermore, a function can become dysfunctional when roles are needlessly mixed up with it. Not to mention living through opaque lens detracts the richness of being totally involved in the matter-at-hand?

Do you think myself, husband and daughter would prefer a self confident wife and mother who acts as if she knows what she is doing and doing it well or one that is a basket case of self doubt, worry and insecurity?

And a third alternative: A mother and wife, who nurtures, cares for, supports and does all of the appropriate functions to the best of her ability. Too mundane for you?

which is the real image I should be getting real with?

Images are just that ? images. Hint?

Isn't reality "made up" of and by us?

No. Reality is objective. It is our interpretations of reality which becomes subjective.
Reality just IS. ?Reality is?, exists prior to ?reality is this or that.? i.e. interpretations.

Most of what we do in false pretense and creating self flattering images is to keep ourselves from being thrown into a reality of suffering when you think about it.

You?re correct ? in a certain sense. They would only suffer due to their dualistic mindsets imposing warped projections over reality ? rather than actually reflecting reality As Is. In other words, if they were in-touch-with-reality, they would realize the insanity of such behaviors, and be more able to live in peace.


What would my husband say if I said to him, "Honey, Vern Howard says I need to stop pretending to be something I am not to flatter myself and my marriage. He says I should get real with my true feelings and I feel really horney for that guy over there so I am just going to go do him to keep it real and then you and I can go catch a bite to eat"

Being in touch with reality does not mean one makes irrational decisions.
It?s quite the opposite, Jiggy.



I think , reality as we know it is one giant false pretense. To use it as a measure of how we are being false is ridiculous for that reason, like the blind leading the blind it is.

I guess Markos or any other fine therapist, psychologist, neuroscientist, and all other scientists should just drop what they are all doing ? because according to a housewife named Cindy in Florida, reality is just one big false pretense. Might as well start deleting various educational programs from our schools too, hmm?

If anyone choosing to make this imaginary best friend called reality into some real, I'll tell you what this best friend is going to do to you. It will send you a bunch of mixxed messages about yourself and the world confusing you into insufferable hell until you start telling it what its going to be for you and what you are going to be within in it.

It will stab you in the back until you learn to stop trusting and listening to it and start trusting and listening to yourself.

It will leave you to rot when the chips are down like a fair weather "best friend" until you learn to start being there for yourself and how to command the weather in your own life. The forcast is bright warm and sunny in mine everyday!


Wow Jiggy. If you really believe all of that, I guess there?s no stopping you.
And who was it that needed a reality check? Certainly not Vernon Howard.


Reality is objective and is always truthful. It does not lie.
It can be misinterpreted, misunderstood and misbegotten.
But it always holds the truth ? for all to see.
Sounds like a great, honest, reliable friend to me.
But seeing requires a correction of mind, just as clear vision sometimes requires a correction of the eyes.




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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3959944 - 03/23/05 04:02 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

no.


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OfflineBoneMan
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: Gomp]
    #3960027 - 03/23/05 04:26 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I know a lot of people who can't see the reality of their of their unpleasant attributes..

people who are bad with money, and never pay back their debts...

crazy drivers who pull unneccesary stunts on the road that would get them pulled over if there were police around (and possibly injured or killed if there were other unseen vehicles in the vacinity)...

people who beat their own "friends" for money or drugs..

people who turn in the completely different people when high, kinda like a jekyl and hyde thing, and treat everyone else like garbage.

and people who simply don't give a damn about anyone but themselves.

but they deny it all and look at you like you're nuts when you try to point it out to them.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3960696 - 03/23/05 06:24 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I could've just written this instead of the long post I did, but I guess I wrote it yesterday because all those thoughts were running through my head when I thinking about what Vern Howard said.

I don't think he is stupid. I think he thinks like most people living in duality perception. Some times i shift into and speak from it to for purposes of relating to others on that plane.

It's as simple as this to me. To buy into the idea that there is an objective reality means that there is a subject and an object, TWO things. This is being in duality consciousness and separation which is the form of consciousness fear is experienced within and where there is fear there is suffering and conflict and struggle.

When you adopt an understanding that there is only subject reality and flux, you are now dealing with ONE. ONE has nothing extraneous from itself to fear loosing, nothing to fear except for ones own self really and nothing to struggle against, put up resistance too or be in conflict with.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleeMotionALLmotion
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3963327 - 03/24/05 03:47 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
Reality helps pretenders who want to stop pretending. This is a
world of pretense. You have noticed this. People pretend they
are not scared, pretend they are not hurt, pretend they are not
nervous. Wearing masks of strength and confidence to impress
people, they cry inside. Pretense is harmful and unnecessary.
It fills space that should be filled with Reality. Wherever you
see your own pretense, drop it. Its pain will vanish.
.
~Vernon Howard [edited by SM]
.




.
Isn't one's reality a form of one's own conditionally peceived "pretense" of his/her surroundings...?  If so, how can you drop one without the other....?   
.
I do agree, perhaps a lot of the world is caught up in pretending, or as a metaphor, put on a mask(s) to pretend and cover up what they are experiencing in their sometimes painful chosen way of reality....  Perhaps it is out of fear that someone might see this suffering and offer a gesture of comfort, that just might not be readily accepted by someone in a state of self suffering....(?)    Someone suffering might perceive this acceptance of another's selfless gesture to be an internal self recognition of weakness, when in fact it very well might be the foundation for strength and truth....    Any mask made to make false impressions to others would only serve to feed an aching ego, which inturn might cause more suffering, to make a more defined mask, to falsely impress, to feed ego, suffering, mask, impress, feed, SUFFERING.............       
.
There can be many outside observational and theoretical perceptions of why masks "are" for a wearer, but each mask is custom taylored by each individual choosing to pretend to others and only the wearer of that custom mask can see what is truly on that other side....    Seemingly, one could create a mask to hide a self perceived painful truth(s) in personallity or charactor, and sometimes only painful to the wearer of such masks....  For, it may not be an actual "truth" or a flaw to others in reality, but in certain instances that fear of other's judgements could cause one to create a mask, and perhaps can be more seen as a self defense mechanism to ones chosen pretense of reality....  So **IF** we are on "common ground" in my perception of your words, removing those imprisoning masks hiding suffering would be the freedom from the harmfull pretenses that are indeed unnecessary - and binding - just as a self serving and self comforting "reality"....  And prehaps, open truth to one's pain shall set one free from those masking pretenses....    :heart:
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Much respect to you for sharing your version of chosen words....  :smile:
After reading what I just wrote, I think that I just re-aranged your words, and made it more confusing....!!  :blush: :lol:
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Still working on the "little words = wise" thing....    :smile:  :heart:


:sun:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: eMotionALLmotion]
    #3964641 - 03/24/05 01:57 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

The way you worded it makes sense because you kept it in the subject tense where the measure for what is pretense and real is between the person and the person and comparing states of the self.

Vern, wrote it as if you should be measuring yourself against an objective reality which has no secure and set point of reference.

Love would be the ONLY thing I can think of in this case that I would trust as a comparative objective reality for me to see if I am being true with myself and others or not. If I am not in a state of love then I am in a state of pretense. That makes sense to me because love to me is the only absolute reality, the truth of who and what I really am in Essenes and keeps it subjective while being objective at the same time, because they are one in the same to if that makes any sense.

My being in a state of self love/truth or lack of self love/truth is relative to only me. How can you trust the measure of the external world if you can't trust the measure of your internal world? Mastering a love for the self and trust in that is the name of the game. How can you use another measure of what self love is to compare your own with if it holds a different meaning for everyone?

Thanks for untwisting Vern's words so I could get something from it emotion! I liked what came from this;

If I am not in a state of self love then I am in a state of pretense which may cause me suffering or be a mask for self induced suffering that needs some self induced lovin.

The little wise words that say it all, I found in this thread.


I think what set me off about they way he put it is that to me it read as if there was an objective reality out there by which you could measure your own authenticity with. That would set one up for trying to look out there to find a set truth and then to start making comparisons between your truth and someones elses truth for you.

That to me is a cause of suffering. Comparing yourself with others out there going in to it with the intention that something is wrong with you and something out there is more right sets the seeds for jealousy and insecurity and just eventually leads to becoming competitive with others.

I'm not cut out for reading Vern I guess, I would make a mess of myself with his writings but if someone else can get something useful from them, like you did emotion after you knew how to untwist and reassemble his words to say something completely different then Kudos!

Skorp, I have to ask you something. Well first let me say that it was Verns writing style and presentation that I had an issue of concern with that I presented. Of course that issue has nothing to do with you personally.

I don't even know the person of you really. You mostly post the writings of others. Isn't that fronting with a mask in a way? I really enjoy the writings that come from YOU. I wish you wrote more just from yourself and own experiences.

Maybe this is your way of appearing to be or expressing egolessness, the no person behind the mysterious Skorpvio Musterion. That's Cool!

How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop or Skorp, the world may never know? :tongue: :heart: :thumbup:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3965162 - 03/24/05 04:00 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Instead of supporting an illusory image, allow reality to support you, not your self-held image of yourself, as well as your emotion-backed addictions to security, sensation, or power, not to mention your demands of reality [as if you are in any position to demand anything of the way reality naturally unfolds
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Skorp, I like your post. I realized someone was focusing on the wrong thing here even though I haven't read Vernon ( I will now)

Anyway the above quote reminds me of someone I have read and respect tremendously. Have you read Ken Keyes, Handbook to Higher Consciousness?

Sorry to get off track here.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (03/24/05 04:01 PM)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Re: Reality is your best friend [Re: Icelander]
    #3965346 - 03/24/05 04:49 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

What if I live in the middle east and my reality is, that my home was bombed to shreds, my parents were killed in the bombing, I have eaten little in days and there is war going on around me.

How do I derive a true self image from my reality and how am I to let it support me?


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleeMotionALLmotion
DivineeMotive....

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 759
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Conditioning a "Maskless" Perception of Reality.... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3965386 - 03/24/05 05:00 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Thank you Jiggy, your words are very kind....    :heart:

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
That to me is a cause of suffering. Comparing yourself with others out there going in to it with the intention that something is wrong with you and something out there is more right sets the seeds for jealousy and insecurity and just eventually leads to becoming competitive with others.
.
I'm not cut out for reading Vern I guess, I would make a mess of myself with his writings but if someone else can get something useful from them, like you did emotion after you knew how to untwist and reassemble his words to say something completely different then Kudos!
.
How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop or Skorp, the world may never know? :tongue: :heart: :thumbup:



.
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Conditioning a "Maskless" Perception of Reality....
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The ironic thing is that conditioning for this suffering starts off at a very young age....  Some(most?) children grow up imitating life as a "normal" learning process, and that is how they learn and adapt in growing, but in reality, in this world full of pretenses and masks children may be actually imitating an imitation of life....  And as they/we mimic these masks, perhaps even the masks of pretenses in one's reality are conditioned and learned to be of a normal state of existance, as it is consideed to be "normal", and is encouraged....  But how would a child adapt to the sometimes hurtful ways of the world without actually becoming part of it and blending in within the world of masks....?    Perhaps it IS possible that there are some childeren that can live in a loving selfless unmasked state IF they are taught "correctly", but how would anyone be able to REALLY tell the difference....?
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One of the very beautiful things about very young children is how they see and act upon the world without any disregaurd for their observing and asking questions or making an observational comment about the reality they perceive....  We seem to call this state "innocence", or being "naive", and make assumptions that everyone has and acts in the same "pure" way of thinking that they do....(?)    For, they see and openly point out the actual TRUTH(s), and sometimes that can be very embarassing for the parents and/or strangers that may be part of that particular exclaimation or question.....!    :shocked:  :blush:  And as I have seen in actual situations of say in a department store in the checkout line when a child says something along the lines of, "Wow mommy, that lady is really big, isn't she"....  :blush: <~~~ Mommy....!  :lol:  Perhaps the young child had never seen in real life a large person before in their young exploration, and it was a comment out of curiousity and/or recognition to a ever growing reality of discovery....  But what is mom going to say in most cases in her immediate wake of embarresment to the actual situation at hand thru her own conditioning....? 
.
Most likely in this situation, mom is going to say, "Johnny, that wasn't very nice, you shouldn't say things like that about other people, now appologize to her...."  In actuallity, little Johnny has done nothing but spoken the truth in his unmasked perception of his innocent and unconditioned reality, and so he made comment out of this new experiencial revalation and/or recognition to the world without unbiased intentions....  And what did mom do in actuallity by pointing out his "mistake" out of her embarasment....?    She herself started her own conditioning of a mask of pretenses for little Johnny by trying to place her own mask of perception on him by teaching him to not state such a factual truth because it just might hurt another's feelings....    And this may seem "harmless" for mom and everyone else veiwing such a situation, but look at how this conditioning of pretenses may start at even a very early age of childhood developement....    Such is the world of masks from imitating upon the reflection of reality....
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In my thinking out loud of how might be a more unmasked way to approach such a situation with a stranger that might be offended and make for an embarassing situation for mom....?  Perhaps by simply asking little Johnny why he said such a thing with a very openly accepting attitude....  Perhaps then the stranger might better understand that his intentions were not to make fun, but because it was out of his amazement for seeing such a thing that he had never seen before - thus making it more accepting or non-offensive to the possibly self consciously masked large stranger....  Then perhaps when mom and Johnny are away from the situation and in the car, mom could further explain that his actions were not "wrong" for him to do, but some people that are large may get hurt feelings because they may not be comfortable with being large....  In my eyes, this may not place a mask of conditioning on little Johnny as much as he might better understand the actual situation and possible feelings of others - from his saying such truths as he may see them and point them out....  Perhaps that is the simple difference that makes or breaks....  If mom would have just said that he shouldn't say such things because it hurts people's feelings, he might perceive what he said to be wrong, and that may be where the conditioning of masks begin - out of misunderstanding personal situations....(?)  Where as letting little Johnny explain himself, then explaining that he was not wrong in saying that, but some people may be hurt by such things, might let him evolve without building a mask for such a situation....  Perhaps those little steps of teaching would help him further evolve with the truth intact in a better understanding of other's feelings....   
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To break it down in "less" words,
Positive encouragement of a child's innocently growing perception of "truth", without the placing fear or doubt in these new and young eager students of Life in helping with offering an unbiased and better understanding of other's feelings thru teaching and promoting a child's own ability for seeing that innocent "unstaind" truth, and also teaching/promoting the mindfullness of others when interacting and noticing such truths in a social situation....  :heart:
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I guess that ended up being a lot of words....!  :shrug:  :lol:
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I may be wrong on all of this as I am not a parent, but I see things so much differently now....  I do know that all this talk of children really makes me want to have some of my own, to which I was never really sure that I ever even wanted children in my past....  Now I know that I do....    :smile:
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Which also brings about a question I have been meaning to ask that was thought up a while ago, and I am dying to know the uninhibited truthful answer from a child's eyes....!  I will make another thread for that tho~....  :heart:
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As for Skorpivo and in his defense, he CAN be very personable and outgoing as I have once gotten the chance experience in my curiousity of his seemingly publically private "way"....  I might have actually hurt that growth of getting to know him in my then partially ego driven assumptions, and the implications I threw at him at that time....  :frown:  I did the exact same thing to Swami in my then state of confusion, and/or state of "knowing it all"....  :frown:    As I see it now, my actions were done out of my own false perception and mistaking of a few things that most likely had nothing to do with either of them at all....  HOPEFULLY that bridge of trust can start to build over again in getting to know each other over much calmer water....  Hopefully I have grown and evolved in a more positive and mindfull way of understanding and accepting others just the way they are - even in this relatively short amount of time....  :smile:  :heart:  Skorpivo & Swami, I do that you can have forgiveness for my previously ignorant actions, as I have realized that you are perfect just the way you are, and for that I do love you both....!  :smile:  :heart:    :sun:  :peace:
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Jiggy, I find it VERY ironic out of chance that you should bring up the lollipop question in the awakening evolvement of this thread.....!  :lol:  Perhaps that can be explained to you more fully if you are curious and ask, and the irony is that you can ask Mr. Skorpivo or myself....!    :tongue:    :smile:


:sun:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody


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