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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3867794 - 03/04/05 12:53 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
>> The only absolute I can think of is the speed of light in a vacuum.
> Doesn't that make the speed relative to its being in a vacuum?

No. The speed of light in a vacuum is the same, regardless of what vacuum you use or how fast your vacuum is moving or accelerating. "Relative" only comes into play when the light (photons) are observed. A vacuum isn't a thing, so much as a lack of things. By using the term "in a vacuum" I am really saying "all else being equal with nothing interacting or obstructing the path of the photons".





Correct, the speed of light in a vacuum is the same. I agree with that. What I said was that the speed of light in a vacuum is relative to its being in the vacuum versus its being obstructed. It is a relative absolute. The speed is only an absolute in a vacuum. Relative to it traveling in water or concrete the speed is no longer absolutely the same.

Like some one else said here, things can be absolute within a framework. However, the absolute is relative to the frame work it is within making it a relative absolute.

Everything is both absolute and relative to the framework that makes it so, so it seems.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3868433 - 03/04/05 02:59 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Without a "me" to look at it there is no "me" to know it absolutely exists. So the NOW is absolutely relative to the self who can or can not perceive it.

If existence has primacy to consciousness, then the Now still exists prior to consciousness experiencing it.

If the absolute now is not relative to anything then it is ... still.

:smile:



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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3868513 - 03/04/05 03:13 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

You guys cheated when it came to my example. You left the defined system.

In the Natural number system, not counting negative numbers or 0,

2 + 2 = 4. 2 is a natural number, 2 is a natural number, and they comebine to form a natural number.

However you aren't using that system of values when you say "2 + 2 = 96". You are in the "case of beer" system. Where 1 = 48. In the natural number system, 1 = 1, and 2 = 2. If you can just jump around systems like that then you can say anything, but you can't jump around systems like that or else you lose all validity.

And besides, I think the point is, anything abstract and defined by logic and language is absolute. Anything that is part of our objective reality is relative. The value "2" is absolute, but if I write the number "2" on a peice of paper, it becomes relative. Someone might not be able to read it, or they could be blind.

That's how I'd say it works.


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Ishmael
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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: freddurgan]
    #3868581 - 03/04/05 03:23 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

That's relative to your form of absolution is it not? :lol:

Been chasing our tails this whole time. Maybe someone will be able to catch it eventually.


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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: freddurgan]
    #3868933 - 03/04/05 04:30 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I am not arguing that 2 is not the absolute value of 2 within THAT definitive system. It is. You are correct in saying that absolutes exist within systems.

However, that is relative to ONLY the definitive system it is in. Take it out of that system and two can have another logical value of 48. 2 cases + 2 cases = 96 cans. Within this system of two having a value of 48 2+2=96 makes sense and is absolutely correct, relative to the system IT is in.

Both equations make the absolutes relative to something like a system. In other words, two having the value of two is not absolute within all definitive systems.

Skorp,

I'll come at it this way. The stillness you suggest can not be known as an absolute without someone to know it. That someone makes the absolute of it relative to the one "knowing" it to be so.

If there was no one to know it, how can any be sure it absolutely exists? Once you put an observer or test measure on it, it becomes relatively known, by the observer or the measures of the test.

The stillness may indeed be absolutely still. How can you absolutely know that without relating it to something such as observation? In this sense, the absolute becomes relative to something.

I agree with you that it is an absolute and am saying that it is relative to something also.

I want to see someone separate an absolute from relativity.

I'm questioning if it can be done and I don't see how and this is nuts because I don't believe in impossibilities. The only thing that would clear this up for me is to say that the absolutes and relatives are actually the SAME thing. Then it all becomes possible.

That would mean that all relatives are absolutes and all absolutes are relatives. Ahhh that gives me peace of mind with this. :stoned:

I can be absolutely sure that this is relative to me.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: trendal]
    #3868986 - 03/04/05 04:43 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

is poop relative??...


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3869078 - 03/04/05 05:00 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Well yeah..obviously if you pull it out of the system it can change. But that's not what I was arguing =D We are in agreement here.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: freddurgan]
    #3869238 - 03/04/05 05:38 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

"What is absolute relative, is an relative absolute"
-Unknown :P


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3869389 - 03/04/05 06:05 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

yes


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Invisiblefearfect
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: trendal]
    #3870064 - 03/04/05 08:34 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

your example 2 cases + 2 cases = 96 cans is not defined in math because you changed your labels. just like 2 inchs + 2 inches does not equal 4 quarts because it doesn't make sense. in order for it to make sense, you have to define a case as being 24 cans, therefore 2 * (24 cans) + 2 * (24 cans) = 96 cans, works because you are working in the same base.

now that that is cleared up, i still stand by my argument that math is well defined and absolute because it does not change.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: fearfect]
    #3870667 - 03/04/05 10:18 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

No one said it wasn't absolute within its system. The fact that the labels were changed to say I was adding cans by cases was the point demonstrating the relativity of the quantitative value of 2.

The point was that within another mathematical system which you demonstrated the number two can be Representative of a different numerical value. That being said, again, two being the value of two is relative to the system it is being applied within, making it a relative absolute.

Math itself doesn't change as you demonstrated the equation. How we get the absolute numbers is relative to the system we use, making them relative to the mathematical systems being applied.

12 divided by 4 absolutely gets you 3 relative to using the division system. 12 + 4 absolutely gets you 16 relative to using the addition system.

12 and 4 can be turned into 3 of 4 or 16 depending on what mathematical system is being applied to the absolute numbers. That's the relative part, what system the numbers are being run through.

No one is questioning the absoluteness of them that I have read.

Math is a logical sound system of absolutes that are relative to what mathematical system the absolute numbers are being applied to.

All I am saying is that you cannot separate the absoluteness of something from what makes it an absolute and that is, its own relativity, they are the same thing. I don't know what else to say for that to "click".

I do have a question as this is all play for me and mental exercises. Has anyone contradicted Einsteins theory of relativity and been able to prove it's wrong or flawed.

I'd be interested in hearing the logic and reasoning of how they did if they did. I would love to have my mind blown by being shown how something is not an absolute relative to the system making it so.


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3870708 - 03/04/05 10:23 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Einstein's theory is wrong on the microscopic level, so yes, someone did disprove it...sorta.


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Ishmael
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Ron Paul 2008!
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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: freddurgan]
    #3870823 - 03/04/05 10:42 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Would that take us into the area of PSI Calculous then. Oooh Suess? I think it was you who is familiar with this form of abstract math.

I would love to get my head into understanding that shit better.

Any links where I can look into how absolutes are not relative to a system on the microscopic level anyone?

I'm going to do my own googling search. This is a fun mind stretching topic.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3870872 - 03/04/05 10:55 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I did just think of something. Is that because there are no consistent absolutes once you get to the microscopic level or beyond it?

Diploid posted some stuff on the Plank Scale Theory that I think said that. ooooh diploid?

If the microscopic level and deeper doesn't deal with absolutes then, its not relative to absolutes being relative because you need absolutes for that.  :tongue: damn! I was getting all excited!

I'm still going to search further on all of this.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #24946799 - 01/27/18 07:06 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Well I think there is an absolute base.. some would call it Dao.. other than that due to the theory of relativity all objects relate to each other.. in their own ways.. which is a relativism..:smirk:

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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #24946836 - 01/27/18 07:25 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Absolute is relative to non absolute and any arguement against is relative to mine.
Within the impossibility of an answer we may find a better question.



There is a beauty in the evenness of this polls results.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: pineninja]
    #24946864 - 01/27/18 07:39 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Ahh the intertertiary work itself..

Which would be a form of transcendental meditation..

When you think of something.. you realize the object.. and understand its relations..

When you think of the whole or otherwise the absolute, you realize youve transcended every object..

But can you transcend everything without tearing the fabric of existence?

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #24947732 - 01/28/18 08:01 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

you can transcend yourself.


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OfflineBlue Wrench
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24948188 - 01/28/18 10:10 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Everything is absolute! Just saying it to be different, I really have no idea lol.

Although maybe everything is, we just can't understand why because of our limitations in perspective.


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Edited by Blue Wrench (01/28/18 10:12 AM)

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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Relative? or Absolute? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24952700 - 01/29/18 04:06 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

is there a limit to that?

this can be translate to refreshing nothing else


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