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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: repemon]
    #3735501 -

Everyone has beliefs. Even the ultra hard core skeptic "believes" things to be true. None of us know everything for certain. Throwing out beliefs also throws out morality, right and wrong, and any vestige of a personal philosophy in dealing with the world. So, you just take what you want by force uncaringly? To say you believe nothing is self deception as well. You obviously believe that you have no beliefs...the most naive belief of all...that we know all for certain. This does not mean we believe in anything that presents itself, though...


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Supernova]
    #3735581 -

The "BIG BANG" theory makes me laugh.
Then apparently you have not studied cosmology. The evidence is pretty compelling that all matter originated from a single point.

Ask any scientist how the big bang occured- what it was the caused the reaction that led to the big bang- and they will not have an answer.
Not sure what your point is. A scientist is a detective trained in logic who puts the pieces together, not an omnisicent and special form of God-Man claiming ultimate knowledge.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3735632 -

Dreamer987 said:
"And FYI, I am not so much sure of my own beliefs as much as I am sure your beliefs are grounded in self-deception and ignorance.
It's a major cop-out to say, "Well, no one knows anything for certain, so my beliefs are just as valid as science."

Aren't everyones spiritual beliefs grounded in self-deception, and ignorance?


As others have pointed out already, no. Absolutely not.

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Thats what makes them spiritual beliefs. People make up a little fantasy world in their head, and say "thats the way things are"


If that was all there was to spirituality, then it would be pretty useless.

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It helps to cope with the inexplainable caotic nature of reality.


Coping is for the weak. The truly spiritual can accept and embrace the chaotic nature of reality.

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Nowher did i say that my beliefs were as valid as science. My beliefs are just as valid as the next guys. you being the next guy.


I am merely explaining science to you. Thus you are implying that your beliefs are as valid as science.

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And i'm not saying that there wasn't a big-bang, just that i don't think that it was the beggining of existance itself. Mabey just our little piece of it.


It was a beginning. It's quite possible, and indeed science seems to indicate, that there are other universes, possibly an infinite number of them, but everything we know about the Big Bang indicates that it was the beginning of our universe.

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I don't mind you arguing with me. But if you could be less of a dick about it in the future that would be nice. belittling me, and my beliefs does not help you get your point accross, nor does it help the flow of communication. I came here looking for some philisophical discussion. Not a fight.
Keep that shit in OTD.


I'm sorry if pointing out facts and fallacies constitutes being a dick, but it is my spiritual belief that the truth matters.

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You may not have noticed while you were doing it, but you really came off as an asshole.


I'm sorry I can't sugar-coat everything for you, but sometimes people need to hear it like it is.

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"(what a weak cop-out!),

your "spiritual beliefs"(I don't even see what's so spiritual about it

That's why people like to play this trick of taking any illogical belief of theirs, no matter how nonsensical or contrary to the evidence, and put this "spiritual" label on it to avoid having to defend it. This is intellectual sloth

I can't say I blame him. It can be frustrating talking to people who are scientifically illiterate.

If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Some of us actually use a thing called logic, and it can be quite harmful to fragile egos which are attached to illogical beliefs.

And FYI, I am not so much sure of my own beliefs as much as I am sure your beliefs are grounded in self-deception and ignorance."


Hey, I call it like I see it.


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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Swami]
    #3735636 -

The Big Bang is irrelevant. Anything occuring before the universe was created cannot be extrapolated because the laws of physics did not yet exist.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3735640 -

Nor did time exist before that, so there could be no "before."


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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Supernova]
    #3735666 -

If I asked any scientist who knew about the Big Bang, then he would know the biggest problem of the Big Bang isn't about how the matter came to be there- in fact, that is part of another problem that we are working on today. That "other problem", which has been the main flaw of the Big Bang theory, was unifying the fields of General Relativity, who acts on the very big and came about almost immediately (to our sense of time) after the Big Bang, with the the three other forces in the universe- Electromagnetism and the Strong and Weak nuclear forces. Or to simplify it, we have to combine the laws that govern quantum mechanics and the atom with the laws that govern us, the earth, the sun and the galaxies.

The reason we need to do this, is because at the moment before the Big Bang, the universe was extremely heavy (that doesn't really do it justice, eh?  :smirk:) but also extremely small- smaller than an atom. After the Big Bang exploded, the four forces of the universe- General Relativity or mainly Gravity, Electromagenetism, and the Strong and Weak forces of the atom- separated. From one the universe made four by change.

Not to say this is really a problem, as much as an intriguing question. And if you're up to date on current scientific theories, they think they may have even solved this problem with Sting Theory, which can combine the laws of the very large and the laws of the atom into one theory.

Now, knowing that the universe before the Big Bang's main problem is unifying all these fields, how does that answer the question of where the matter came from? To know this, you'd have to study Quantum Mechanics, and from the extremely strange nature that behaves in the very small, an answer arises. It's a bit too lengthy to explain in a paragraph, but to simplify it extremely, matter can come out of nothing at the level of the very small- and in fact, if matter does exist at the very small, it only has a probability of existing until it's directly observed. Which is rather beautiful at combining the forces, because with Quantum Physics, we see that there is only a probability of an event in everything, and matter can appear out of nothing (or perhaps flit through parallel universes, depending on who you ask,) but with General Relativity we solidify it into existence- voila, the universe.

Ignorance is no excuse to make up scientific beliefs, such as the Big Bang couldn't have happened because where did the matter come from, or how does the universe have an edge and suddenly end? Good questions, but instead of closing your eyes and making up beliefs that fit about five seconds of thinking and contradict modern science, perhaps you could research it a bit.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Silversoul]
    #3735675 -

True. An interesting paradox.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3735684 -

they live on the 12 planet in this solar system.they came here many years ago to abtain gold to fix there atmoshpere.the sumerian text say so

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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Cosm]
    #3735708 -

You are just regurgitating lowend pop culture. Sitchin's book was a farce. There are 8 planets in the solar system...9 if you count Pluto.

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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3735720 -

no there are 10 known plantes. the 10th mass was discovered about 20 years ago.

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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Cosm]
    #3735745 -

No, I think Sedna was discovered just about 7 years ago...but it is too small to be a planet they (whoever they is) finally decided.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3735755 -

To Dreamer I say in reference to the debate as to whether the universe is or is not finite, I'll try to clear it up a bit. I've included a rough drawing below to help illustrate my point. Note that inside the sphere (which represents our physical universe) I have shaded a dark grey color, yet outside of the sphere it is completely black. This is important to note as I will explain below.



Ok, what exists in those spaces in our universe that are void of matter? Nothing right? It's just empty space. Wrong. These places are void of matter but does time or space, which are both an integral part of our universe, exist in these areas? Certainly they do. The big bang brought into being all matter in the universe. But it doesn't stop there. Both time and space, which are arguably inseparable, sprang into being at the moment of the big bang as well.

Ok, now what exists outside of our universe. Absolutely nothing. I know, it's difficult to fathom the concept of non-existance but there is nothing out there. No matter, no time, no space, no gravity, no thing. It is impossible to travel outside of the sphere because there exists no place to travel to.

I hope I haven't stumbled over the words too much and confused anyone. If so, my appologies and I'll try to clarify any points you may have questions with in subsequent posts.

To Supernova, I'd like to tell you about a bumper sticker I once saw. It said, "I believe The Big Bang theory. God spoke, and BANG, it happened." Creationism and Science are not at odds with one another. You just have to stand in the right light to see it.


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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Swami]
    #3736577 -

I still laugh at the big bang theory. It's not that I do not believe in a continually evolving and expanding universe. I just disagree with the premise that everything started at a single point. What was outside that single point? Where did that single point come from? What was it that sparked the reaction for that single point to begin expansion? An external force had to be at play. For there to have been an external force dispels the notion that there was a single point.

Science is wonderful. I have a degree in biochemistry and love scientific theories of creation. But you talk about scientists being detectives using logic to put together the pieces. The problem is that there are many more pieces to the puzzle missing than have been found. When all the pieces come together, I believe we will find that "the beginning" of THIS universe came about in a much different way they currently theorized. Our minds may then be able to grasp the concept of eternity and existence without beginning or end.

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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Supernova]
    #3736589 -

By the way, Wired had an excellent article a few months back on the BB theory.

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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Supernova]
    #3736814 -

supernova said:
I still laugh at the big bang theory. It's not that I do not believe in a continually evolving and expanding universe. I just disagree with the premise that everything started at a single point. What was outside that single point? Where did that single point come from? What was it that sparked the reaction for that single point to begin expansion? An external force had to be at play. For there to have been an external force dispels the notion that there was a single point.


The Big Bang does not explain where that point came from, nor does it intend to. It is simply the logical conclusion that one arrives at when we note that the universe is expanding(if you don't believe it is expanding, I can offer some evidence for this as well). The Big Bang Theory explains what caused the universe, but is not intended to explain what caused the Big Bang. However, I will explain what I can.

[/consults The Universe in a Nutshell, by Stephen Hawking]

Einstein once famously said "God does not play dice with the universe." However, quantum mechanics shows us that God is quite the gambler. Heisenberg, in his uncertainty principle, showed that one could not accurately measure both the position and velocity of a particle, and that all objects are constantly in motion, even if that motion they appear to be completely still. This provides a certain unpredictability as to how an object may behave. On a small scale, this leaves things in a very random state. You can place your bets on red or black, and the probability is about equal. However, take a large number of bets, and what was random on a small scale now becomes more predictable. This is how casinos make their money.

This is why in a large universe like ours, the classical laws of physics work out. However, in a very small universe, confined to a single point, as with the Big Bang, relativity and classical physics breaks down, and the uncertainty principle becomes very important, and the Big Bang can be attributed to random quantum movement.

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Science is wonderful. I have a degree in biochemistry and love scientific theories of creation. But you talk about scientists being detectives using logic to put together the pieces. The problem is that there are many more pieces to the puzzle missing than have been found. When all the pieces come together, I believe we will find that "the beginning" of THIS universe came about in a much different way they currently theorized. Our minds may then be able to grasp the concept of eternity and existence without beginning or end.


It's quite possible that the Big Bang theory may one day be discredited. It would be unscientific of me not to acknowledge that possibility. However, to say it will be is pure speculation.


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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Silversoul]
    #3736977 -

Why can we not accurately measure a particle?
When you say everything is in motion, in what context?


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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Ego Death]
    #3736997 -

danoEoboy said:
Why can we not accurately measure a particle?
When you say everything is in motion, in what context?


We can accurately measure either the position or velocity of a particle, but not both. When I say everything is in motion, I mean exactly that. Think of the electron constantly orbiting the nucleus. But even the nucleus is not static. There is always motion, even if it is too small to detect with the naked eye.


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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Silversoul]
    #3737006 -

We need a theory that predicts this motion then, no?

To prove Einsten, ultimately correct.


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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Ego Death]
    #3737019 -

danoEoboy said:
We need a theory that predicts this motion then, no?


No. That's the whole point. IT CAN'T BE PREDICTED. That's why it's called the uncertainty principle.

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To prove Einsten, ultimately correct.


Why must we prove Eistein correct? As intelligent as he was, he was still very human and subject to flaws.


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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Silversoul]
    #3737106 -

Like the gambling tho, it can be predicted over the larger quantity of data, no?

Einstien can be wrong or right, as I remember neither game(QP) or no game (God don't play dice) theory has been proved yet.


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