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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Silversoul]
    #3733377 -

Paradigm said:
Like so many here, your "spiritual beliefs"(I don't even see what's so spiritual about it)....


Ha, try focusing that statement in the parentheses outwards towards this entire thread... or most recent threads. :lol:

:wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3733382 -

ind33d :yesnod:


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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Silversoul]
    #3733407 -

"One of your strongest spiritual beliefs is based on something that you claim one can have absolutely no understanding in? That's delusion, my friend, wow."

oh sorry, i was not aware that spiritual beliefs need be based on fact or even logic.

"Like so many here, your "spiritual beliefs"(I don't even see what's so spiritual about it) are completely contrary to the evidence."

I could go into my whole little list of beliefs, and my reasons for them, and how i came to learn them, but i'v done that here before.
You go on believing your established "evidence"
I'll keep on believing what i believe. Which isn't necisarilly the truth. Probly not even close. The fact is nobody knows what is true, and what is not. When people think they have everything figured out, it is a sad thing indeed.
The mystery, and wonder of life is what makes it so great.


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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3733437 -

Dreamer987 said:
"One of your strongest spiritual beliefs is based on something that you claim one can have absolutely no understanding in? That's delusion, my friend, wow."

oh sorry, i was not aware that spiritual beliefs need be based on fact or even logic.


They don't.  That's why people like to play this trick of taking any illogical belief of theirs, no matter how nonsensical or contrary to the evidence, and put this "spiritual" label on it to avoid having to defend it.  This is intellectual sloth, and is contrary to true spiritual development.

Quote:
"Like so many here, your "spiritual beliefs"(I don't even see what's so spiritual about it) are completely contrary to the evidence."

I could go into my whole little list of beliefs, and my reasons for them, and how i came to learn them, but i'v done that here before. 
You go on believing your established "evidence" 
I'll keep on believing what i believe. Which isn't necisarilly the truth. Probly not even close. The fact is nobody knows what is true, and what is not. When people think they have everything figured out, it is a sad thing indeed.
The mystery, and wonder of life is what makes it so great.


You're the one who's putting forth a firm belief while defending it merely on the grounds that it is "spiritual", and yet you ridicule those who think they have everything figured out.  Talk about irony. :rolleyes:


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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3733441 -

I kind of covered some of this before. Heres my post from: This thread.

Hows it gonna end?
A few billion lightyears away theres some big ass brick wall with a sign on it that says "the end of the universe"?
Think about it. Its not even fathomable that there is an end to it.
Soooo... you know what that means? That if theres infinate space, that there is infinate possibilities. Like right now in a galaxy far far away there is an identicle Dreamer987 making an identicle post on an identicle Shroomery.
Also, if things can be infinately big, than they can be infinately small to. So our bodys alone are probly swimming with infinate worlds, and lives.
So when you die, your probly killing off billions of worlds.

Thats what i believe. I was trying to explain all this to an old friend of mine, who is very "level headed" and believes that since science has supposedly proven that planets can only be made up of a certain meterial, that there is no way that there can be any other kind of planets or something.
I was like "well i believe that there is a planet made out of marshmellows somewher"
this pissed him off so much he wouldn't talk to me about philosophy, and religeous beliefs anymore.

also were all one. Interconocted. Or very exsitance makes us so. Theres probly some sourt of reancarnation cycle.
those are just my beliefs...


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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3733466 -

Dreamer987 said:
I kind of covered some of this before. Heres my post from: This thread.

Hows it gonna end?
A few billion lightyears away theres some big ass brick wall with a sign on it that says "the end of the universe"?
Think about it. Its not even fathomable that there is an end to it.
Soooo... you know what that means? That if theres infinate space, that there is infinate possibilities. Like right now in a galaxy far far away there is an identicle Dreamer987 making an identicle post on an identicle Shroomery.
Also, if things can be infinately big, than they can be infinately small to. So our bodys alone are probly swimming with infinate worlds, and lives.
So when you die, your probly killing off billions of worlds.


Is the Earth infinite? No? Then where's the end of Earth? Is there a brick wall there?

Quote:
Thats what i believe. I was trying to explain all this to an old friend of mine, who is very "level headed" and believes that since science has supposedly proven that planets can only be made up of a certain meterial, that there is no way that there can be any other kind of planets or something.
I was like "well i believe that there is a planet made out of marshmellows somewher"
this pissed him off so much he wouldn't talk to me about philosophy, and religeous beliefs anymore.


I can't say I blame him. It can be frustrating talking to people who are scientifically illiterate.

Quote:
also were all one. Interconocted. Or very exsitance makes us so. Theres probly some sourt of reancarnation cycle.
those are just my beliefs...


I agree in a sense, but oneness and interconnectedness is such a vague term, and can mean so many different things that it's hard to say what exactly is meant when one claims them to be the nature of reality.


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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3733470 -

dreamer, try this on for size:

there is no brick wall, no boundary. the actual physical 3D space of the universe bends back on itself. like, take a beach ball, pretend you're a little flat guy who lives on it. your beach ball world is unbounded (no brick wall) but NOT infinite, right?

that's my spiritual belief

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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3733478 -

also were all one. Interconocted. Or very exsitance makes us so

you realize this has no meaning?

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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Silversoul]
    #3733481 -

"They don't. That's why people like to play this trick of taking any illogical belief of theirs, no matter how nonsensical or contrary to the evidence, and put this "spiritual" label on it to avoid having to defend it. This is intellectual sloth, and is contrary to true spiritual development.

You're the one who's putting forth a firm belief while defending it merely on the grounds that it is "spiritual", and yet you ridicule those who think they have everything figured out. Talk about irony. "


No ridicule. I don't feel the need to defend what i believe in, when its probly all bullshit just like everyone elses beliefs. Everyone thinks they *know*, but what makes us so sure? I just like to talk philisophicly every once in a while. The climate tends to get alittle hot for my liking tho...


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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3733497 -

If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Some of us actually use a thing called logic, and it can be quite harmful to fragile egos which are attached to illogical beliefs.


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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3733524 -

Once philosophy crosses the boundaries of science, such as talking about the matter in the universe, then logic and recent scientific discoveries can be used. Trying to just write everything off as your "spiritual beliefs" is a rather useless discussion, because they might as well just be chosen arbitrarily if you don't actually use the information available to you.

If you researched it a bit, you'd also find there's an answer to why you choose to believe that the universe is infinite, and that science does talk about the end of the universe. It doesn't exist, because the universe is like the surface of a sphere if it was 3-dimensional, in that you can travel in any direction and come back to the point you started at (after a 10^100^100 light years probably.) Notice that the surface of a sphere is actually 2-dimensional, which is why the analogy extends it to a 3-dimensional sphere, creating a shape that we cannot create on our levels but the universe's shape possibly could.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Silversoul]
    #3733534 -

Sorry, i'm alittle lost here.
so... what are you trying to say silversoul?
what makes you so goddamed sure of yourself? What is it that you have proven with your set in stone scientific data, that my fragile ego, attached to illogical beliefs cannot comprehend?
I would really like to know.


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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3733582 -

Dreamer987 said:
Sorry, i'm alittle lost here.
so... what are you trying to say silversoul?
what makes you so goddamed sure of yourself? What is it that you have proven with your set in stone scientific data, that my fragile ego, attached to illogical beliefs cannot comprehend?
I would really like to know.


Well, for one thing, your assumption that a finite universe would have to involve some sort of "brick wall" shows you lack an understanding of geometry. If the universe is round, as the Big Bang Theory would seem to indicate, then that means it has no "end," just as there is not an edge of the Earth from which you will fall off if you go too far. And FYI, I am not so much sure of my own beliefs as much as I am sure your beliefs are grounded in self-deception and ignorance. Scientific data is not set in stone, but it does provide a clearer picture of the physical universe than pure conjecture, which you are engaged in. It's a major cop-out to say, "Well, no one knows anything for certain, so my beliefs are just as valid as science." Science is the only system which empirically and systematically tests assumptions to provide the greatest degree of certainty possible.


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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Silversoul]
    #3733724 -

"And FYI, I am not so much sure of my own beliefs as much as I am sure your beliefs are grounded in self-deception and ignorance.
It's a major cop-out to say, "Well, no one knows anything for certain, so my beliefs are just as valid as science."

Aren't everyones spiritual beliefs grounded in self-deception, and ignorance?
Thats what makes them spiritual beliefs. People make up a little fantasy world in their head, and say "thats the way things are"
It helps to cope with the inexplainable caotic nature of reality.
Nowher did i say that my beliefs were as valid as science. My beliefs are just as valid as the next guys. you being the next guy.
And i'm not saying that there wasn't a big-bang, just that i don't think that it was the beggining of existance itself. Mabey just our little piece of it.

I don't mind you arguing with me. But if you could be less of a dick about it in the future that would be nice. belittling me, and my beliefs does not help you get your point accross, nor does it help the flow of communication. I came here looking for some philisophical discussion. Not a fight.
Keep that shit in OTD.

You may not have noticed while you were doing it, but you really came off as an asshole.

"(what a weak cop-out!),

your "spiritual beliefs"(I don't even see what's so spiritual about it

That's why people like to play this trick of taking any illogical belief of theirs, no matter how nonsensical or contrary to the evidence, and put this "spiritual" label on it to avoid having to defend it. This is intellectual sloth

I can't say I blame him. It can be frustrating talking to people who are scientifically illiterate.

If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Some of us actually use a thing called logic, and it can be quite harmful to fragile egos which are attached to illogical beliefs.

And FYI, I am not so much sure of my own beliefs as much as I am sure your beliefs are grounded in self-deception and ignorance."


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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Dreamer987]
    #3734103 -

Aren't everyones spiritual beliefs grounded in self-deception, and ignorance?

No.
May I recommend you study Taoism?
Spirituality is about simplicity & freedom from the illusions of reality, self-deception and ignorance.
It seems you are obviously operating on a very different definiton of spirituality. In the midst of your hyperbole, I surmise that you are simply trying to point towards the grand subjectivity of all epistemology. Or am I giving you too much credit here?
Perhaps you could clarify.



Thats what makes them spiritual beliefs. People make up a little fantasy world in their head, and say "thats the way things are"

Hmm?


Thats what makes them beliefs. People make up a little fantasy world in their head, and say "thats the way things are"

Ahh, makes...a bit more sense.


It helps to cope with the inexplainable caotic nature of reality.

Yes, quite true; beliefs - as opposed to simple facts and factual observations - do serve this purpose.. amongst others.

Ultimately, all beliefs are unnecessary. All I need are facts.

When one ends the root of suffering, and lives in total peace and acceptance of all-that-is: that entire movement is what I refer to as Spirituality. The result of that whole movement, is what I refer to as Enlightenment. I use these references simply in order to communicate this reality to you.

Hence spirituality is about enlightenment, and enlightenment is the end of suffering.
And the psychological roots of suffering cannot be ended by the forces which are only conducive to it; namely those which you've associated with the term Spirituality - self-deception and ignorance.



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3734422 -

Here is Einsteins idea of how the universe "looks" like:

take a circle, and rotate it, you get a sphere, and take a sphere
and rotate it in the 4th dimension, and you get a shape not possible to imagine by our mind, but you end up with something like Ravus and Zekebomb described.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3734604 -

"Aren't everyones spiritual beliefs grounded in self-deception, and ignorance?"

Surely that is not your summary of how spiritual beliefs should function? On that level they are useless. I absorb influences and form a hypotheses about how the universe functions, then I create a mental model based on that hypotheses. When part of the hypothesis is invalidated I discard it and adopt a more practical one based on my experience and influences. If my model holds up and helps me manipulate my current reality then I use it until part of that idea is invalidated by experience. It does not much matter if in the scheme of things my model is not completely correct as long as it behaves as such, because there is no knowing in advance if a spiritual idea is correct. So, through experience, trial, and error my spiritual beliefs are a dynamic guide to manipulating my reality. I do not worry with thoughts of the afterlife because they have no purpose in the here and now due to the fact that it is a matter of pure speculation with no practical purpose. That which is not practically useful must be discarded.

Edited by Huehuecoyotl (02/05/05 09:36 AM)

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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3734712 -

Spiritual beliefs?

Who needs beliefs?


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- When the time stops, evil ones will be pointed out for all to see.

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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Ravus]
    #3735252 -

Ravus said:
Universe is infinite? Eternal? I've never heard this, if the Big Bang had finite matter how could the universe be infinite? Do you have any sources?

It's pretty well-established the universe is in fact finite, I believe.

Now, if you want to increase the complexity, quantum physics says that there may be an infinite number of universes called the multiverse, but that's not as well established as our own universe yet.


The "BIG BANG" theory makes me laugh. Ask any scientist how the big bang occured- what it was the caused the reaction that led to the big bang- and they will not have an answer. Something had to act upon the matter from which the universe was created. OH, wait, if there was matter before "the universe was created", then there was something there. What was that something? It was THE UNIVERSE! There can be NO beginning. In order for there to be a beginning, there must have been a state of non-existence. Such a concept is ludicrous, for if there was no existence, then there was nothing to act and nothing to be acted upon in order for the universe to come into existence. There has always been something, and that something is the universe. It is indeed infinite and eternal.

Our problem stems from our concept of time. We live less than 100 years, and throughout our lives we live by the clock. This is a mortal concept. Immortality knows no time. When we leave this life we will discover that the short existence on this plane was as a single moment. Come tell me how you feel in 100 Billion years. You may be unable to conceive such, but your inability to conceive it, and even your unbelief of the concept, makes in no less true. Everyone in the world could deny the truth, but that does not make it any less true.

When you come to understand the eternal nature of the universe and of our own existence, you will then be able to see that we are not alone.

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Re: do aliens exist? [Re: Supernova]
    #3735474 -

Sure they do!  :cthulhu: :cthulhu: :cthulhu: < See!

Bear in mind that our Sun is a small star!

Astronomers in Australia say there are 10 times more stars in the visible Universe than all the grains of sand on the world's beaches and deserts.
From the darkest parts of Earth, the naked human eye can see about 5,000 stars; from a brightly lit city street, only about 100.

The scientists looked at just the visible Universe
But modern telescopes tell a different story.

The Australian astronomers used some of the world's most powerful instruments to measure the brightness of all the galaxies in one sector of the cosmos - and then calculated how many stars they must have contained.

70 sextillion, or seven followed by 22 zeroes!

Couple these facts with the known age of our universe and the known age of Earth.

It is ignorance in the highest to think that we are the most intelligent evolved race or only evolved planet.


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