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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
i'm left. youall can bite me
Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 1,591
Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Gijith]
    #3010497 - 08/16/04 09:36 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

no offense taken. I'm glad you finally explained the prior warming periods in geologic history because that was a very important counterargument to debunk and it's something I myself didn't know.
Being an environmental science major I'm sure you know about stuff like the Earth's magnetic field polarity shift many scientists expect coming up soon. They also said something about the Earth's axis aligning with the galaxy...around 2012. Funny We're in for changes on a grand scale. My personal belief is that maybe this time god's experiment is set up such that there's gonna be warming one way or another but unless we don't control our greenhouse gas emissions Earth won't be able to recover as it has each time in the geological past. That's when it becomes a runaway greenhouse effect like planet Venus. I'm keeping my fingers crossed and riding my bike. It's a good thing the oil supplies gonna start running thin at this time in human history. we'll see.


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OfflineTao
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Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: psilomonkey]
    #3011094 - 08/17/04 12:02 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/distract/ig.htm

edit: wtf? that was suppossed to be for Inny. stupid quickreply

just because it hasn't been conclusively proven does not mean that therefore you know it has no validity and is nothing more than a scare tactic. its not like the IPCC is funded by the sierra club (unlike some studies funded by Shell and Exxon).


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Gijith]
    #3012231 - 08/17/04 07:04 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The reason for the Earth's biggest shifts in climate over time actually have nothing to do with what goes on here on the planet




So to sum up your very well thought out response: The heating and cooling of the Earth in the past and present is caused by natural occurances.

Quote:

But if such politicians don't actually believe in global warming, what do you think the alterior motive? What do you think is the actually agenda?




It's hard to tell. But it really doesn't matter to me, a lie is a lie. people seem to be react to scare tactics more than the truth.

Quote:

I was just thinking about Alaska when I mentioned that. Maybe there's other examples.




What part of Alaska is being polluted? Anware? (sp) I'm all for drilling in Alaska and to be honest with you the local animal population has be positively affected by the oil pipeline (moose, deer, etc)

Quote:

Shit I don't wanna shift dependence. I just want less.




Unfortunatly oil is a necesary product until a new one comes along which we should all be looking into.

Quote:

I'm sure this thread is getting real close to being shut down




I haven't got personal yet, if I do then they'll shut it down.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Tao]
    #3013058 - 08/17/04 01:16 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

just because it hasn't been conclusively proven does not mean that therefore you know it has no validity and is nothing more than a scare tactic.




It also doesn't mean it's a credible threat and without evidence it will remain a theory backed up with guesses. I believe it is a scare tactic and it always amazes me that the Global Warming crowd comes out every summer to say: "hey guys, look how hot it is, it's global warming". You never see these people coming to northern states in February mentioning it.

your link forgets one major thing, you people are claiming it (Global warming, Global cooling, Climate Change, Enron, whatever you want to call it) to be fact when the evidence is against you. Face the only thing that is fact in this whole conversation: The earth's climate changes are due to natural flucuations.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineTao
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Registered: 09/19/03
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3013248 - 08/17/04 02:00 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

the evidence is against you.



please explain that whopper.


Quote:

the Global Warming crowd comes out every summer to say: "hey guys, look how hot it is, it's global warming". You never see these people coming to northern states in February mentioning it.



if by 'global warming crowd' you mean 'stupid uninformed hippies', then yes. that's like me boiling down the entire conservative movement to redneck KKK members. if you've noticed, ive not said a thing regarding that the hot summer is indicative of climate change.

Quote:

The earth's climate changes are due to natural flucuations.



the point is that we haven't seen such a spike like this in such a short span of time for perhaps ever.

again i point you to the correlation between CO2 and temps throughout history and the mass production of CO2 by burning fossil fuels. the parts per million (PPM) has increased dramatically since we began the IR.

A 'guess' is something like "well it could be us". this is not what all the studies are saying (like the IPCC and bush's own commissioned study), they are saying "it is highly likely it is us". this is much different from what you flippantly refer to as a 'guess'. don't you think its pretty likely that changing the composition of the atmosphere might have an effect on the climate? and to you who accuse this of being the work of alarmists--the last 'alarm' was about CFCs and the ozone layer and that was true and dealt with forcefully in the Montreal Protocol by a complete ban of CFCs by the developed countries (because the consequences were soon seen by the massive hole in the ozone). unfortunately, global warming will have longer consequences since greenhouse gases can last 100 years in the atmosphere.

Again, from our government's own website (not the sierra club, not greenpeace, not 'alarmists with alterior motives'):

"There is no doubt this atmospheric buildup of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases is largely the result of human activities.

It's well accepted [note inny: they don't say "its possible that..."] by scientists that greenhouse gases trap heat in the Earth's atmosphere and tend to warm the planet."

connect the dots inny. this is not a 'guess'.

"By increasing the levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, human activities are strengthening Earth's natural greenhouse effect."

this is why the fact that the earth heats and cools regularly is not a contradiction to the findings, this is obviously known by scientists. its the fact that we are speeding the process which a) we don't want (so many of us live on coasts and desertification will substantially increase for the africans) and b) earth might not be adapted to deal with at such a rapid pace--the severest rammification would be the halting of the ocean conveyor belt.

to put it in your terms: if you discovered it was likely that you were about to be attacked or murdered in your house in the next week, would you go buy a gun or would you sit and say "well, its not a proven fact that it will happen. I don't think I'll act until I know for certain, say, when the intruder is already in my house" i think i know what you would do.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Tao]
    #3013547 - 08/17/04 02:46 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

please explain that whopper.




no whopper needs to be explained.  It's interesting to note that while many here say don't discount the possibility of a man made disaster, noone on the opposing side has thought of the possibility that this is a natural flucuation of weather patterns.  The evidence is there, Do you concede that the cooling and heating of the Earth over tens of thousands of years has been natural?  If not then what caused it? (another echo).

Quote:

if by 'global warming crowd' you mean 'stupid uninformed hippies', then yes. that's like me boiling down the entire conservative movement to redneck KKK members. if you've noticed, ive not said a thing regarding that the hot summer is indicative of climate change.




now you're putting words in my mouth, you know what I meant. 

Quote:

It's well accepted [note inny: they don't say "its possible that..."] by scientists that greenhouse gases trap heat in the Earth's atmosphere and tend to warm the planet."




This is where you loss a little credibility, in one breath you say that global warming isn't in fact a warming of the globe (whatever :rolleyes:, for the sake or argument i'll concede), then in the next breath you say that it is well accepted by scientists that greenhouse gases trap heat in the Earth's atmosphere and tend to warm the planet.  Which one is it?  Pick one or the other, you're all over the map.

Quote:

b) earth might not be adapted to deal with at such a rapid pace--the severest rammification would be the halting of the ocean conveyor belt.




that's pretty arrogant to think that the Earth can't handle what we do.  The Earth adapts.

Quote:

to put it in your terms: if you discovered it was likely that you were about to be attacked or murdered in your house in the next week, would you go buy a gun or would you sit and say "well, its not a proven fact that it will happen.




not a very good analogy really.  The problem is is that I don't think the Earth is suffering from whatever the catch phrase is (global warming etc.).  You say it's a fact then mention that it may be a possibility without considering that it may not be possible or very unlikly.  People like to focus on negatives rather than positives because it's easier.  You see a spike in temperature (a spike that isn't shown in satelite data from 1979) but discount the past.  Why are you denying the past?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineTao
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Registered: 09/19/03
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3014079 - 08/17/04 04:38 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

noone on the opposing side has thought of the possibility that this is a natural flucuation of weather patterns.




gimme a break, of course scientists have taken this into account. otherwise global warming would be an absolute certainty.

Quote:

Do you concede that the cooling and heating of the Earth over tens of thousands of years has been natural?




"concede"?!? when have i ever not agreed with that. inny, are you even reading my posts??

"human activities are strengthening Earth's natural greenhouse effect."
[from the epa's website]

Quote:

This is where you loss a little credibility, in one breath you say that global warming isn't in fact a warming of the globe (whatever , for the sake or argument i'll concede), then in the next breath you say that it is well accepted by scientists that greenhouse gases trap heat in the Earth's atmosphere and tend to warm the planet. Which one is it? Pick one or the other, you're all over the map.




for the love of god inny, we've just been over this. the earth is such a complex system that its warming can have other consequences that will cool down certain parts of the globe. examples: melting of the polar ice sheets will cool parts of the ocean; stopping the ocean conveyor belt would terminate warm currents that pass by otherwise very cold places. OVERALL the effect will be warming. i just said that in the post before that one.

Quote:


that's pretty arrogant to think that the Earth can't handle what we do. The Earth adapts.




oh i have no doubt it will 'adapt'. just like it eventually 'adapted' to the meteor that hit 65 million years ago. the thing is, i think most of us would rather not have to deal with mass extinctions and the like (or should i say exacerbating the current mass extinction that we've caused).

Quote:

You say it's a fact



what do you mean "it's" a fact? that the globe is warming? yes. that humans are causing most of it and it will have catastrophic effects? no. i have not said that is a 'fact'.

Quote:

You see a spike in temperature but discount the past.



CC data is based on more than laymen looking at a solitary graph and saying 'oh, global warming is a fact'. your ignoring the mounds of data. read the IPCC brochure if that is all you think global warming is based upon.

Quote:

(a spike that isn't shown in satelite data from 1979)



data from one guy (who was working for the republican opposition group who were surely in the pockets of big business and oil) based on one form of measurement for 25 measly years. Thats really hypocritical to trust that data when you talk shit about the other side's data. IPCC : a) is peer-reviewed b)does not have a policy objective c) based on many climatologists findings d) based on a myriad of data and different types of measurements. none of these applies to the one source your using. if i was using something like that you would have a field day, admit it. that source is far, far from credible.

http://www.ipcc.ch/about/about.htm

To repeat my position:
1) the globe overall is warming and will continue to do so
2) Humans are contributing to, though possibly not fully responsible for, the warming.
3) The consequences are not fully known, though very likely they will be severe for costal cities due to sea level rising as the ocean warms and dry areas as desertification increases.
4) The above three premises IMO are enough to warrant action to cut down on greenhouse gases.

Quote:

People like to focus on negatives rather than positives because it's easier.




exactly, which is why so many americans have somehow managed to convince themselves that global warming isn't happening. it is much, much nicer to think that we have nothing to worry about than to have to change the we way we live.


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OfflineCyber
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Tao]
    #3017245 - 08/18/04 09:27 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

it is much, much nicer to think that we have nothing to worry about than to have to change the we way we live.




Or it could be that science is finding no global warming.

The UN Temperature data is wrong where compaired to satellite, weather balloon, and low altitude balloon data.

http://www.techcentralstation.com/081204D.html

The Global Climate models are wrong --

"Analysts have pointed out, however, that many of the assumptions used in modeling the climate are of dubious merit, with biases that tend to project catastrophic warming, and have argued that climate models have many limitations that make them unsuitable as the basis for developing public policy."

http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=pb&id=676

and

The scientist who's work the IPCC bases most of there data on have been discredited.

"The United Nations' Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change claim that human activities are responsible for nearly all Earth's recorded warming during the past two centuries is based largely upon the work of Michael Mann of the University of Virginia and Phil Jones of the University of East Anglia in England. But over the past two years, their work has been discredited by five different groups of independent research scientists."

http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforksherald/news/opinion/9243347.htm


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Cyber]
    #3018910 - 08/18/04 04:55 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Nice links.

It won't matter though. They sky is falling. I know because Chicken Little said so.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (08/18/04 04:55 PM)


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
i'm left. youall can bite me
Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 1,591
Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3072939 - 08/31/04 09:17 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Quote:

A powerful typhoon has struck eastern China, killing at least 115 people.
More than 1,800 others are reported to have been injured after the typhoon hit the coastal city of Wenling, in Zhejiang province




wow, a typhoon. Did you know that there has never been a year go by since the beginning of record keeping that there hasn't been a typhoon? What about the Hurricain that hit the US in 1906? 8,000 people died.

using this as evidence is not only sad but desperate. I'd suggest you do a little reading on this topic because you are making no sense.




Deadly typhoon races up Japan
Tuesday, 31 August, 2004
The typhoon has severely disrupted transport schedules
Typhoon Chaba is heading north up Japan's archipelago after leaving at least seven people dead in the country's southern and western regions.
It is heading north-east at about 65km/h and is expected to hit the northern island of Hokkaido later on Tuesday.

Meanwhile the Philippines is still suffering from typhoon-induced floods.

Thousands of people have been evacuated from the central Luzon area, and officials say at least 29 people have died since the flooding began.

Chaba is losing some strength - packing winds of about 108km/h (67 miles/h), down from Monday's 210km/h - but is moving faster, according to the French news agency AFP.

Chaba, which takes its name from the Thai word for hibiscus, is the 16th typhoon to affect the region this year........


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OfflineTao
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3073400 - 08/31/04 12:54 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Two conservative thinktanks (and an opinion piece in the 'grand forks herald':wtf:) write two articles spinning some data to try to cast doubt?  i wouldnt say 'nice links'.  The difference between those sources and mine is that they actually have upfront stated biases.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: question_for_joo]
    #3075310 - 08/31/04 08:55 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

:yawn:

See the following since you haven't grasped it the first time.

wow, a typhoon. Did you know that there has never been a year go by since the beginning of record keeping that there hasn't been a typhoon? What about the Hurricain that hit the US in 1906? 8,000 people died.

also:

So, by most standards, the numbers are average, or slightly below average because normally there are about 20 or so typhoons that occur in the Western Pacific each year. Sometimes, the Joint Typhoon Warning Center has to start another list of names because there have been so many storms that they exhausted the list for the current year. Running out of a list of names has not yet happened in the Atlantic.

Hurricaneville - WESTPAC

get it?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleGijith
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Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3075437 - 08/31/04 09:48 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I'm gonna go ahead and agree with Inny here that the typhoons, hurricanes and other bad weather are not tied into global warming.
The evidence just doesn't really suggest it.
I think that global warming could eventually cause natural disaster type weather, but not for some time.


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