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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
i'm left. youall can bite me
Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 1,591
Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy
    #2997278 - 08/12/04 09:19 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Hey before this one gets shunted off to die in Science & Technology (might as well just delete it and quit playing games) I just wanted to say you're all gonna be believers in 10 years time. Noone's gonna be unaffected. Your crops are gonna burn. Your pool's are gonna freeze. Wake up people. Bad shit really is happening and it's getting worse every year. Mother nature is pissed off.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,772
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2997296 - 08/12/04 09:24 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

:thumbup:

I think it's too late to stop the tide. Society will not change in time, at any rate.

Just wait till things do start to get bad on the whole...we'll see what humans do when backed into a corner (nuke eachother, probably).


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2997313 - 08/12/04 09:28 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Global warming will be good for Canada.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineMAGnum
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2997319 - 08/12/04 09:29 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

question_for_joo said:
Hey before this one gets shunted off to die in Science & Technology (might as well just delete it and quit playing games) I just wanted to say you're all gonna be believers in 10 years time. Noone's gonna be unaffected. Your crops are gonna burn. Your pool's are gonna freeze. Wake up people. Bad shit really is happening and it's getting worse every year. Mother nature is pissed off.




You know there is something wrong when after a three day long river trip, you are rithing in pain from suburns and blisters. It happenned to me like that.

Just a few days out in the sun and FRIED!


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: silversoul7]
    #2997341 - 08/12/04 09:32 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Actually I have my eyes on the antarctic! There's some prime real-estate under all that ice :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: silversoul7]
    #2997349 - 08/12/04 09:34 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Global warming will be good for Canada.




How about California?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Redstorm]
    #2997356 - 08/12/04 09:35 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Global warming will be good for Canada.




How about California?



Yesterday it was 104 degrees outside, and this is in Northern California. So, to answer your question, I don't think it will be good.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineMAGnum
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: silversoul7]
    #2997372 - 08/12/04 09:39 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Canada will be the next superpower. They will invade America when we are weak from starvation and famine! Beware!


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2997442 - 08/12/04 09:57 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Please tie this in to one of the following if you wish it to stay here:

Politics -- i.e. what do you believe government should do to stop the sun from putting out more radiation that reaches the earth (check several recent articles in the mainstream press for the reference)

Activism -- i.e. what form of protests or letter-writing campaigns etc. you feel would be effective in preventing the temperature of the Earth from dropping several hundredths of a degree centigrade per year (according to the most recent satellite-gathered data)

Law -- what current laws should be enforced or new laws introduced to prevent people from burning stuff.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: silversoul7]
    #2997463 - 08/12/04 10:03 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Global warming will be good for Canada.




How about California?



Yesterday it was 104 degrees outside, and this is in Northern California. So, to answer your question, I don't think it will be good.




I don't think so either. I think it's gonna be more desert than it already is, very, very soon.


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Anonymous

Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2997481 - 08/12/04 10:08 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The climate may be slowly changing in places. It's not getting warmer everywhere though. Here in the northeast US temperatures have been lower in the last few years than average.


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
i'm left. youall can bite me
Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 1,591
Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Phred]
    #2997521 - 08/12/04 10:18 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Politics -- i.e. what do you believe government should do to stop the sun from putting out more radiation that reaches the earth (check several recent articles in the mainstream press for the reference)



Obviously noone can stop more radiation from reaching the Earth but what we can do is reduce the amount that is prevented from bouncing back out. We can allow more trees to grow. We can reduce the amount of poisonous chemicals we pump into the atmosphere. We can stop reducing the ozone layer. This is not just the government's responsibility (though I believe any responsible govt. should take a lead). This is everyone's responsibility, especially those of us in the industrial world.

Quote:

Activism - i.e. what form of protests or letter-writing campaigns etc. you feel would be effective in preventing the temperature of the Earth from dropping several hundredths of a degree centigrade per year (according to the most recent satellite-gathered data)




That's a compound question. It's going up faster than that and the increase is exponential. A little increase will have profound effects. As for protests that's the point. Protests happen to make undecided and opposite minded people think about issues. This post is a little protest. Hopefully it's reminded a handful of shroomery people of the threat that's gathering. The original article on the BBC website reminded me. American news media doesn't report on this stuff very often because American's don't like to face gloomy reality and so far America hasn't been as severely impacted as other parts of the world. My pop's in London right now. Right now they're sweltering, suffering.

Quote:

Law -- what current laws should be enforced or new laws introduced to prevent people from burning stuff.





I didn't have anything specifically in mind but I mean hey here's a proposition: ban Hummers. Here's another one: big tax cuts for carpoolers. Here's another one: big tax cuts for people who install solar panels. Those would be some good new laws.


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OfflineTao
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Registered: 09/19/03
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2998246 - 08/13/04 01:11 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Two things to make sure you guys know (not assuming you don't already know this)

1) Climate and weather are largely very separate (i.e. just because you set some records this past week does not = climate change)

2) The Ozone layer has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with global change/climate change


oh, and to satisfy pinky, i think that this is one of the prime examples that there needs to be some sort of sacrfice of national sovereignty to the global community. yes, perhaps the UN needs drastic reform, but there needs to be something


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Tao]
    #2999147 - 08/13/04 05:38 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The ozone layer does have something to do with global warming - it shields the ice-caps from ultra-violet rays, doesn't it?


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OfflineLocus
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: MAGnum]
    #2999158 - 08/13/04 05:44 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MAGnum said:
Canada will be the next superpower.  They will invade America when we are weak from starvation and famine!  Beware!



we'd take over canada before that would happen  :smirk:


--------------------

The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity. ~ Albert Einstein
"Fear is the great barrier to human growth." ~ Dr. Robert Monroe



~~~*Dosis sola facit venenum*~~~

*Check my profile to listen to my music* :smile:


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 812
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2999171 - 08/13/04 05:51 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Nah... its the result of planetary xenoforming being carried out by the global shadow government and the grays.

sheesh.. this foil hat itches.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2999246 - 08/13/04 07:05 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Our summer has sucked so far (well below average temp). I say bring on the Global warming, sooner the better. ***sprays aerosol can in the air****


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2999301 - 08/13/04 07:54 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Global warming does not equal local warming. It means local changes, infact as the overall energy level in the system increases I would expect weather to become more erratic and violent.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: psilomonkey]
    #2999312 - 08/13/04 08:07 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Global warming does not equal local warming. It means local changes,




huh? Global warming is just what it means, warming. Are you confusing el nino with global warming?

Quote:

infact as the overall energy level in the system increases I would expect weather to become more erratic and violent.




energy level in what "system"? What would you base this prediction on? Weather has always been erratic and violent. How does global warming fit in here?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2999349 - 08/13/04 08:35 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Most global warming models predict that extreme weather will become more common.


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
i'm left. youall can bite me
Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 1,591
Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2999357 - 08/13/04 08:40 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Global warming is the fundamental thing that will happen but that doesn't mean all parts of the globe are going to become warmer. There will be a net warming but some parts of the globe are going to become colder. Some parts may even stay relatively the same. People talk about Global Warming not climate change because it's warming is more accurate for most people.
I'm not trying to convince you to think differently, Invertigo, cause I know your type is basically only looking out for number one. You can keep believing everything's fine and as long as there's some water in your well I'm sure you will. It's quite a popular attitude.



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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
i'm left. youall can bite me
Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 1,591
Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Tao]
    #2999371 - 08/13/04 08:48 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


2) The Ozone layer has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with global change/climate change




As the climate warms the lower atmosphere the part of the atmsophere that contains the ozone layer cools. A cooler stratosphere could inhibit an important mechanism that protects ozone in the upper atmosphere. Thus future global warming could delay the recovery of ozone layer or even enlarge existing holes.

What happens next? Best case: well, there's lots more skin cancer epidemics. Worst case: increasing amounts of ocean phytoplankton are killed, severely damaging the base of the planet's food chain.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: deafpanda]
    #2999441 - 08/13/04 09:20 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Most global warming models predict that extreme weather will become more common




Really? Are those the same models that have been opposed by experts? For every one expert that says that Global warming is a reality there is another that says it's BS, saying the sky is falling does not make it so.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2999471 - 08/13/04 09:30 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Global warming is the fundamental thing that will happen but that doesn't mean all parts of the globe are going to become warmer.




wait, so you're saying that global warming is real but it will not affect the globe? Is that correct? What exactly does global WARMING mean then?

Quote:

There will be a net warming but some parts of the globe are going to become colder.




That goes against the greenhouse effect then. I was under the impression that the global warming "scare" would melt the ice caps and the world would flood. Now i'm confused.

Quote:

eople talk about Global Warming not climate change because it's warming is more accurate for most people.




The climate changes naturally all the time, it's not that big of a stretch. What caused the Ice age before and what caused the ice to melt? Man? Industry?...or was it nature?

Quote:

I'm not trying to convince you to think differently, Invertigo, cause I know your type is basically only looking out for number one




People like me question scare tactics (don't pretend that you know me). I don't deny that there is a posibility that there could be global warming but it seems awfully suspicious that the "sky is falling" crowd discounts nature. I'd suggest you go see the video "The greening of planet Earth".

Quote:

You can keep believing everything's fine and as long as there's some water in your well I'm sure you will. It's quite a popular attitude.




and please, continue running around with your head cut off because someone says we're all going to die. It seems that the global warming people never seem to come out in the winter time...hmmpphh.



self portrait?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2999482 - 08/13/04 09:32 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

huh? Global warming is just what it means, warming. Are you confusing el nino with global warming?

No I am not, El Nino is thought to be a natural cycle that has been working on a 5 year cycle for ages, however seems to be changing in frequency and nature. Its now reckoned to be running closer to a 3 year cycle.
While a lot of these changes can not be proved to down to global warming, I think it foolish to think that a global change in temperature would have no effect on weather.

energy level in what "system"? What would you base this prediction on? Weather has always been erratic and violent. How does global warming fit in here?

The planet is a thermodynamic system, it is not a closed system. It has solar input, and looses energy by thermal radiation into space. The theory is that, if the composition of the atmosphere changes so that more heat trapped and not lost to space, the overall energy level of the system rises.

EDIT: If you want a demonstration of in increase in thermal energy resulting in a more chaotic system, check out a lava lamp.


Edited by psilomonkey (08/13/04 09:41 AM)


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2999494 - 08/13/04 09:36 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

My prediction: We'll see another ice advance before it gets a whole lot warmer.
:snowflake:


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2999516 - 08/13/04 09:47 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Far, far, FAR more experts know that climate change is a real threat.

And not all of the world will get hotter - for example, the UK and France will get colder as the gulf stream (a warm current that keeps our climate mild) is pushed south due to melting ice caps.

The climate does change naturally, but it is highly unlikely that it would do that in the forseeable future. If it did, we'd be fucked. THat doesn't negate the problem of man-made warming.

Go and read up on it, please. You'll find that there is a huge scientific consensus on this.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: psilomonkey]
    #2999531 - 08/13/04 09:51 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I think it foolish to think that a global change in temperature would have no effect on weather.




I'm not debating that, that's pretty obvious. What i'm saying is that scare tactics that the global warming" crowd have no credable evidence to back it up their assertion that the earth is warming.

Quote:

The theory is that, if the composition of the atmosphere changes so that more heat trapped and not lost to space, the overall energy level of the system rises.




Theory? Is global warming a Theory or fact? I agree with how the system works and what affects that system, I'm with you there. It's just that I don't believe that there is enough evidence to say that we are experiencing Global warming. Supply me with some evidence and i'll provide things on the contrary, who do you choose to believe?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
i'm left. youall can bite me
Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 1,591
Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2999532 - 08/13/04 09:51 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Today's News:
Scores killed by Chinese typhoon

A powerful typhoon has struck eastern China, killing at least 115 people.
More than 1,800 others are reported to have been injured after the typhoon hit the coastal city of Wenling, in Zhejiang province.

Officials had already evacuated 415,000 people from coastal areas to escape the storm, which happened at 8pm local time (1200GMT) on Thursday.

"Shop signboards were flying out and hit people's arms and legs like knives," said a doctor in Wenling.


"The wind was really very, very strong and we have rarely seen this," he said.......


Hey no big deal, China's like ten thousand miles away, right Verti!


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: deafpanda]
    #2999558 - 08/13/04 10:00 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

deafpanda said:
the UK and France will get colder as the gulf stream (a warm current that keeps our climate mild) is pushed south due to melting ice caps.





This is crucial though. Keep in mind what happens when you get volatile temp changes in the Northern Atlantic. There's a good chance that if Greenland melts, the Golf Strem will essentially disappear. That will completely fuck up the ocean conveyor belt. And as a result, it's gonna get a whole lot colder. Worldwide.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: deafpanda]
    #2999573 - 08/13/04 10:05 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Far, far, FAR more experts know that climate change is a real threat.




Noone is debating that climate change is a real threat, the problem is is that many of these climate changes are natural occurances with absolutly no proven link to man.

Quote:

And not all of the world will get hotter - for example, the UK and France will get colder as the gulf stream (a warm current that keeps our climate mild) is pushed south due to melting ice caps.




Is that speculation or fact? This whole assertion that certain parts will get cold and others will not relies ONLY on whether or not there is indeed the Greenhouse Effect (which says that the Earth will rise in temp). It's starting to sound a tad conflicting. A theory that's based on a theory that will onlty happen if another theory is true.

Quote:

The climate does change naturally, but it is highly unlikely that it would do that in the forseeable future




What? Why is it highly unlikly to happen in the future if it has happened before? This is where this argument falls apart. There has been numerous Ice ages that cycle in and out, causing the earth to cool and heat up.

Starting Age

[million years ago]
Geologic Period

1,700 to 2,300 mya
the middle of the Huronian Era in Precambrian time

670 mya
the end of the Proterozoic Era, in Precambrian time

420 mya
the middle of the Paleozoic Era, between the Ordovician and Silurian Periods

290 mya
the late Carboniferous and early Permian Periods, late in the Paleozoic Era

1.7 mya
the Pleistocene Epoch of the Quaternary Period (Cenozoic Era)

Quote:

If it did, we'd be fucked. THat doesn't negate the problem of man-made warming.




Nature dosn't care if we're fucked or not. The problem is that Volcanoes and the Ocean put off more Greenhouse Gasses then all of mankind's industry combined.

Quote:

Go and read up on it, please. You'll find that there is a huge scientific consensus on this.




I have read up on it and that's the reason why i'm opposing these "theories".


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2999592 - 08/13/04 10:12 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

A powerful typhoon has struck eastern China, killing at least 115 people.
More than 1,800 others are reported to have been injured after the typhoon hit the coastal city of Wenling, in Zhejiang province




wow, a typhoon. Did you know that there has never been a year go by since the beginning of record keeping that there hasn't been a typhoon? What about the Hurricain that hit the US in 1906? 8,000 people died.

using this as evidence is not only sad but desperate. I'd suggest you do a little reading on this topic because you are making no sense.


--------------------

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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2999600 - 08/13/04 10:13 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

do you know what the problem with ice ages is? We're supposed to be entering one. Have been for 200 years now... Sure doesn't seem colder, I wonder why?

*ahem*


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: vampirism]
    #2999644 - 08/13/04 10:20 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

you apparantly don't live in Michigan. This summer has been pretty cool. Hell it was in the 50's last night.

do you think that an Ice agae happens over night? I'm not implying that we are going into or out of one but all the "evidence" (and i use that term loosly) has been based on pure speculation.

*ahem*


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2999652 - 08/13/04 10:21 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
the problem is is that many of these climate changes are natural occurances with absolutly no proven link to man. 




And I doubt there ever will be. Climate change is chaos to a ridiculous extreme. They've got the world's most powerful computer working on it in Japan and it's doing a shit job. So should we just wait around and find out who's right?

Quote:

Is that speculation or fact?  This whole assertion that certain parts will get cold and others will not relies ONLY on whether or not there is indeed the Greenhouse Effect (which says that the Earth will rise in temp).




This actually is fact. They did some ice core drilling in Greenland during the eighties and came up with pretty solid evidence that the Gulf Stream radically changes as Northern Atlantic temp and salinity change.

Quote:

What? Why is it highly unlikly to happen in the future if it has happened before?  This is where this argument falls apart.  There has been numerous Ice ages that cycle in and out, causing the earth to cool and heat up.

Starting Age

[million years ago]
Geologic Period

1,700 to 2,300 mya
the middle of the Huronian Era in Precambrian time

670 mya
the end of the Proterozoic Era, in Precambrian time

420 mya
the middle of the Paleozoic Era, between the Ordovician and Silurian Periods

290 mya
the late Carboniferous and early Permian Periods, late in the Paleozoic Era

1.7 mya
the Pleistocene Epoch of the Quaternary Period (Cenozoic Era)





I agree with you here. But not during any of those periods is there evidence for warming at the rate we're seeing it.


Quote:

The problem is that Volcanoes and the Ocean put off more Greenhouse Gasses then all of mankind's industry combined.




Where's you get this?

Quote:

I have read up on it and that's the reason why i'm opposing these "theories".




Read some more
:cheers:


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2999658 - 08/13/04 10:23 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

it has to do with net global warmth, regional temperature doesn't matter.

Consider this: If Global warming is a very real threat, we will be beyond *all* hope within 50 years. If it is an unreal threat, we'll just have a friendlier environment after prevention. Do you really want to play russian roulette?


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: vampirism]
    #2999694 - 08/13/04 10:29 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:
do you know what the problem with ice ages is? We're supposed to be entering one. Have been for 200 years now... Sure doesn't seem colder, I wonder why?

*ahem*




What what I've read and been taught, we've been holding one off for about 10,000 years. They just did ice core samples in Antarctica last summer and came up with some crazy shit.

Quote:


If it is an unreal threat, we'll just have a friendlier environment after prevention. Do you really want to play russian roulette?




Well said!


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2999733 - 08/13/04 10:37 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The greenhouse effect itself is not debateable. If there was no greenhouse effect, the earth's temperatures would never be above 0.

It is the extent of the greenhouse effect that is debateable.

Past CO2 levels correlate with temperatures to a great extent.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Gijith]
    #2999752 - 08/13/04 10:40 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

So should we just wait around and find out who's right?




that depends on what you intend to do? Do I think we should pollute less? Sure. I believe we should but using "Global Warming" as the reason why is nothing but a scare tactic.

Quote:

This actually is fact. They did some ice core drilling in Greenland during the eighties and came up with pretty solid evidence that the Gulf Stream radically changes as Northern Atlantic temp and salinity change.





So this has happened before? Naturally ofcourse...right?

Quote:

I agree with you here. But not during any of those periods is there evidence for warming at the rate we're seeing it.




really? how did the caps melt then and how fast was it. The last I heard the average temperature actually fell 1/10th or 1/100th of a degree (i can't remember which one). People here are basing one or two centuries (half of which are shotty stats) to predict what has been happening for 4-5 billion years of existance.

Quote:

Where's you get this?




It's common knowledge that the Oceans give off methane, CO2 and other greenhouse gasses the volcanoes give off sulfur and other toxins into the air. I'd suggest seeing the documentary (they mention the methane in oceans) "the greening of planet earth".

My link apparantly is old but here is one that discusses it (methane). http://www.eces.org/articles/000649.php

Quote:

Read some more




why? noone here has made a valid or factual statistic. I'd suggest looking at the evidence again.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2999793 - 08/13/04 10:48 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

http://www.ems.org/climate/pentagon_climatechange.pdf

as one of the communist conspirators who happens to live in the northeast...i can already see the ice age scenario happening.. even more so in the northern planes and great lakes...


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: vampirism]
    #2999807 - 08/13/04 10:53 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

it has to do with net global warmth, regional temperature doesn't matter.




I know, but many here find the need to tell me how hot it is in their neighborhood as if that's actually evidence.

Quote:

If Global warming is a very real threat, we will be beyond *all* hope within 50 years.




where are you coming up with these stats? 50 years? who told you that? why 50 years and not 40 or 30. This is what I mean. People just assume things based on baseless data.

Quote:

If it is an unreal threat, we'll just have a friendlier environment after prevention.




Prevention? How in the hell can you prevent a natual occurance? (if you answer anything, answer this) With all the technology in the world we can't stop a simple thunder storm. If you're saying we should pollute less or not at all I agree 100%, but this is not what's causing this "fictionous" warming.

Quote:

Do you really want to play russian roulette?




russian roulette? with what? There is absolutly nothing we can do to stop nature. I don't pollute nor support comapnies that do, how am I playing russian roulette?


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2999822 - 08/13/04 10:57 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Actually, those ice drillings were for millenia, not centuries.

No-one is denying that nature has an effect on this aswell, but we are making the problem far worse.

Look at this - it's a US government report. You think the US government wants to pressurise people to stop polluting? Of course not, look at the Kyoto protocol.

Global warming could scorch US regions

A government FAQ


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: deafpanda]
    #2999866 - 08/13/04 11:09 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Please don't use the Kyoto protocal to make any example, it was a flawed and not very well thought out plan. Like I've said, we should ALL make the environment cleaner and put businesses that pollute OUR water out of business and not just fine them. With that aside, using global warming (or other catch phrases that tend to mean different things) as a scare tactic gets those who are thinkers a bit in a tizzy. Call it what it is, a anti-polution push. I'd be on board.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2999890 - 08/13/04 11:18 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Theory? Is global warming a Theory or fact? I agree with how the system works and what affects that system, I'm with you there. It's just that I don't believe that there is enough evidence to say that we are experiencing Global warming. Supply me with some evidence and i'll provide things on the contrary, who do you choose to believe?

Its a theory, but the evidence is mounting up to support it. Here is some of that evidence.

CO2 Levels and global temperature are linked.



CO2 levels are rising faster than ever before, and they started rising when mankind industrialized, and the rate of change trend is upward too.



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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2999912 - 08/13/04 11:25 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

What was flawed about the Kyoto protocol?


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: psilomonkey]
    #2999924 - 08/13/04 11:30 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

That first graph shows a pattern of naturally fuxuating CO2 levels, it doesn't say anything stunning. The second one, shows a breif period in time but atleast shows a correlation to todays events. Here's my question. Many here have said that Global warming is not local, what were the CO2 stats for the south pole or here in the US. I won't discount the CO2 levels in that graph but what does that tell us? Can one core sample in the N. Pole predict weather worldwide?

Quote:

CO2 levels are rising faster than ever before




I don't see where it says that CO2 levels are increasing higher than ever before. From the first graph it appears that we have the same CO2 levels as 400,000 years agao, why is this? Saying that we have the most CO2 than ever before is contradicted by the first graph, apparantly 125,000 and 325,000 years ago we had higher levels. Anyone care to enlighten me why the CO2 levels were higher?


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2999960 - 08/13/04 11:49 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Because, as you have pointed out many times, a lot depends on nature. The point is that back then the climate wouldn't have been hospitable. Even though nature changes its climate, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try not to change it ourselves.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2999987 - 08/13/04 11:59 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Like I've said, we should ALL make the environment cleaner and put businesses that pollute OUR water out of business and not just fine them.

Careful inny, you're coming off like some damn treehugger.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Xlea321]
    #3000093 - 08/13/04 12:29 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I've always been for a clean environment. I don't know anyone on this site that isn't.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3000099 - 08/13/04 12:31 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I thought you were the guy who used to brag about driving an SUV whenever someone brought up the environment. Must have been someone else.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Xlea321]
    #3000144 - 08/13/04 12:41 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Well I have an SUV, a rather nice one thank you very much. It doesn't mean i'm for polution. Give me something that can pull my boat that gets better gas milage and i'll be all over it if the price is right. What was your point anyway?

So what's your position on global "warming"?


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3000165 - 08/13/04 12:48 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Ah..but you're not that concerned about the environment to get rid of the SUV?

My position on global warming? I think man is making an enormous contribution to it. Driving SUV's ain't helping much either.

Tony Blair now identifies climate change as "the single most important issue we face as a global community". The main cause of climate change is the production of carbon dioxide. The fastest- growing source of carbon dioxide in Britain is transport: its emissions increased by 50% between 1990 and 2002. Flying accounts for most of this, but another reason is that the market for large 4x4s more than doubled in this period. Every year, 150,000 British people now buy one of these monsters, mostly to drive around our cities.

Officially, the biggest 4x4s can manage 12 or 13 miles to the gallon in urban areas. Unofficially, US journalists found that the Ford Excursion was doing 3.7. Switching from an average car to a big 4x4, the Sierra Club calculates, uses as much extra energy in 12 months as leaving your television on for 28 years.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1254763,00.html


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Xlea321]
    #3000212 - 08/13/04 12:56 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ah..but you're not that concerned about the environment to get rid of the SUV?




nice try Alex, try again.

Quote:

My position on global warming? I think man is making an enormous contribution to it. Driving SUV's ain't helping much either.




I like how the ignorant claim it's SUV's and not other combustion engines. SUV's are described now as an entity.

Quote:

Tony Blair now identifies climate change as "the single most important issue we face as a global community".




WOW, now you agree with Blair? I thought he was the devil's helper?

I'm not arguing the need to cut down, i'm trying to see what people are basing their "facts" on when it concerns global "warming" (apparantly global warming doesn't involve the globe warming at all.). This conversation has switched from temperature rises to and Ice age. So far not one person has made a point based on fact. Hell the two graphs above made my point. Nature dictates climate change, man is pompous if they think they have control over it.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3000273 - 08/13/04 01:05 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

nice try Alex

Gee thanks.

Just wondered whether you ever get a sense of irony sitting in your SUV saying "I'd like a clean environment".

I like how the ignorant claim it's SUV's and not other combustion engines

No-one is claiming that inny. The article says flying is a big factor. It just states the fact that SUV's arn't helping any.

WOW, now you agree with Blair?

You do know that I'm not George Monbiot and didn't write the article don't you?

But yeah I agree with Blair on that. It's just a shame he stays firmly in the pocket of the corporations instead of doing something about it.

Nature dictates climate change, man is pompous if they think they have control over it.

So you honestly believe if there were only a few thousand cavemen in the world today, global warming would still be taking place at the same rate?


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Xlea321]
    #3000342 - 08/13/04 01:18 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Just wondered whether you ever get a sense of irony sitting in your SUV saying "I'd like a clean environment".




I wonder if you're thinking of the same thing when you're in an automobile...I'd also like to cut down on CO2 but i don't plan on holding my breath.

Quote:

The article says flying is a big factor. It just states the fact that SUV's arn't helping any.




so is it only planes and SUV's? When you fly do you ever get a sense of irony sitting in your seat saying "I'd like a clean environment"?

Quote:

But yeah I agree with Blair on that. It's just a shame he stays firmly in the pocket of the corporations instead of doing something about it.




he's not my leader, that's your problem to take care of that.

Quote:

So you honestly believe if there were only a few thousand cavemen in the world today, global warming would still be taking place at the same rate?




look at that graph above and get back to me. Why is it that the CO2 levels are higher then then it is today?


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3000440 - 08/13/04 01:36 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I wonder if you're thinking of the same thing when you're in an automobile

No, but I wouldn't go out and buy a gas guzzling SUV either. We can all do a little bit can't we.

so is it only planes and SUV's?

Are you saying we should all just go "Fuck it" and not do anything? Can't each of us try and do our bit however small?

look at that graph above and get back to me.

I'm looking at it. It's still not convincing me man has had no effect on global warming.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Xlea321]
    #3000483 - 08/13/04 01:44 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

No, but I wouldn't go out and buy a gas guzzling SUV either. We can all do a little bit can't we.




ofcourse you don't think about the irony because that would make you just as guilty as those you acuse, suggestion: don't throw rocks.

Quote:

Are you saying we should all just go "Fuck it" and not do anything? Can't each of us try and do our bit however small?




not even close to what I said nor meant...Care to comment on the graphs above and the CO2 levels?

Quote:

I'm looking at it. It's still not convincing me man has had no effect on global warming.




feel free to add some facts to this discussion then.  Never during this discussion have I ever implied that we don't pollute nor that it doesn't affect our environment.  My argument is that there has been nothing but opinion and spectulation as to the reasons for global "warming" (which i've learned that is doesn't really mean the globe is warming :rolleyes:)

If you want to discuss what man is doing to the environment through pollution please start a thread, i'd be more then happy to talk about it.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3000541 - 08/13/04 01:57 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
That first graph shows a pattern of naturally fuxuating CO2 levels, it doesn't say anything stunning. The second one, shows a breif period in time but atleast shows a correlation to todays events. Here's my question. Many here have said that Global warming is not local, what were the CO2 stats for the south pole or here in the US. I won't discount the CO2 levels in that graph but what does that tell us? Can one core sample in the N. Pole predict weather worldwide?

Quote:

CO2 levels are rising faster than ever before




I don't see where it says that CO2 levels are increasing higher than ever before. From the first graph it appears that we have the same CO2 levels as 400,000 years agao, why is this? Saying that we have the most CO2 than ever before is contradicted by the first graph, apparantly 125,000 and 325,000 years ago we had higher levels. Anyone care to enlighten me why the CO2 levels were higher?




Take another look at those graphs with me. Unless I'm wrong, the first graph ends in 1950 at 285ppm. The highest concentration of CO2 occurred about 325,000 years before 1950 at 300ppm.

The second graph goes beyond the timeframe of the first - to approximately the present. In 1900 we matched the previous record of 300ppm. From then on there appears to be a very sharp rise in CO2 to the present at 350 ppm...way above the previous record...and it doesn't look like it's slowing down.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3000597 - 08/13/04 02:09 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Also...The the world's leading atmospheric scientists insist that global warming is real and that it is caused by man.

There are special interst groups whose sole purpose is to try to make it sound as if the jury is still out on this issue. Of course you can guess who gives funding to these groups.

Now let me ask you something, when two sides are saying opposing things would you agree with the experts with little to gain or with non-experts who get rich keeping things status quo?


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Source]
    #3000602 - 08/13/04 02:10 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

It is above all other Peaks but as for the steepness of the rise it looks as though it's quite similar to 125, 325 and 220,000 years ago. But remember that that was a core sample taken from one local place and apparantly it has been previously mentioned that the climate will not be the same globally.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3000650 - 08/13/04 02:21 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Yes the rise is definitely similar...but we whizzed past the first record (300ppm) and are still heading up (past 350ppm). We are already 17% higher than the previous record.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Source]
    #3000682 - 08/13/04 02:27 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

you're right. That area where they had that experiment is approx 17% higher that the previous record, So if it's similar to the other rises isn't it possible that there will be a similar declines?


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3000695 - 08/13/04 02:31 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
But remember that that was a core sample taken from one local place and apparantly it has been previously mentioned that the climate will not be the same globally.




Yeah, global warming is paradoxical in that it can lead to a new ice age due to the stopping of ocean currents which distribute heat. The pentagon just came out with a report citing this scenario as a real threat to U.S. national security. The effects of an over-all warming of the planet can be climatically chaotic...some places may heat up and others may cool down. But that doesn't mean CO2 levels around the world would not be uniform.

But I have to admit, I really don't know and I think you bring up a good point. If all thier core samples are from one place on the globe and if it's possible for CO2 to lump unevenly, they could be getting bogus results.

Then again...atmospheric scientists aren't idiots. If you have thought of that possibility, they have too...and I have enough faith in man to believe that if it really was an issue they wouldn't have posted the results.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Source]
    #3000724 - 08/13/04 02:37 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Bear
1. The Great "Global Warming" Myth

The greenhouse effect is a myth, and there have been extensive and complete, careful measurements which show absolutely NO increase in the average global temperature. The ones usually used in promoting this concept are based on incomplete sampling. Global warming does not exist. In fact there are so many buffers in the atmosphere that it can't happen, even if the CO2 increased hundreds of times over.

First of all, the CO2 content in the atmosphere is only a very tiny amount, about 300 parts per million. This CO2 stays in the air in equilibrium with the CO2 dissolved in the oceans. Since CO2 has a very steep curve of solubility in water, the amount in the air is critically dependent upon the sea surface temperatures (cold rain falling is an excellent CO2 scrubber). World CO2 measurements have traditionally been based on the levels tested in the air at Mona Kea Observatory in Hawaii. The charts of the levels fluctuate seasonally, rising in the summer and falling in the winter. If the levels are compared to the actual sea surface temperature measurements taken at Hilo, which is at the base of Mona Kea, the seasonal variations are seen to track exactly with the temperature. Even the gradual increase over time is duplicated in the temperature reading, as the average temperature at Hilo has been rising in exact lock step with the rise in the Mona Kea CO2 levels. (The charts of these measurement are easily available, making this a trivial exercise if you wish to verify my statements).

Burning fossil fuels is probably one of the most important aids to the life cycle on this oxygen-rich, carbon-poor planet that man can do. Most of the primeval carbon is locked away in the oil and coal deposits formed over the ages by cell death of the phytoplankton (diatoms), which created the oxygen-rich environment by decarboxylating the CO2 in the primitive atmosphere. The limits placed on CO2 are unreasonable and impede the creation of wealth which benefits everyone, and are harmful to the plant life at the same time.




http://www.thebear.org/essays2.html#anchor506009


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3000737 - 08/13/04 02:40 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
you're right. That area where they had that experiment is approx 17% higher that the previous record, So if it's similar to the other rises isn't it possible that there will be a similar declines?




Could CO2 decline? Sure. In fact a very recent study just came out showing that the oceans have absorbed about half of the CO2 thrown into the air since the industrial revolution (imagine what those graphs would have looked like without the ocean). The problem is that when CO2 is disolved in the ocean carbonic acid is created. This acid destroys the shells of plankton...the very underpinning of the entire oceanic ecosystem - not to mention the lion's share of our producers of oxygen.

Another story just broke about the shorebirds nesting around tthe U.K. Several species numbering the the hundreds of thousands have failed to produce more than a handful of offspring this year. Scientists studying the event blatantly blam global warming which is causing the plankton to move north, causing fish to starve, causing the shorebirds to starve.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Source]
    #3000753 - 08/13/04 02:45 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

In the documentary, the "greening of planet earth", many scientists have said that the increase in CO2 could be a good thing since crops need CO2 to survive, more and bigger crops also mean more oxygen. I'm trying to listen to each side but unfortunatly many on the opposition keep giving stats that they claim to be fact like the earth will be in deep shit in 50 years when there is absolutly no evidence to back up that claim. Atleast those one the other end have a valid point when it comes to the CO2 problem.

I have no idea if CO2 would be dispersed evenly or not but since there are weather patterns and high and low pressures i'd have to say no (just a guess).

I'm actually playing devil's advocate with this topic and noone can honestly say that we are even experiencing global warming (or whatever they want to call it).


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3000817 - 08/13/04 03:04 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
In the documentary, the "greening of planet earth", many scientists have said that the increase in CO2 could be a good thing since crops need CO2 to survive, more and bigger crops also mean more oxygen. I'm trying to listen to each side but unfortunatly many on the opposition keep giving stats that they claim to be fact like the earth will be in deep shit in 50 years when there is absolutly no evidence to back up that claim. Atleast those one the other end have a valid point when it comes to the CO2 problem.




So does that mean that if humans didn't come along and liberate all the carbon trapped in the earth's crust all life would have eventually ended due to lack of free carbon?

I really don't know about that. Who financed that documentary? But what is becomming increasingly clear is that due to the excessive amounts of carbon we are facing real problems NOW.

Oil companies set up phony 'scientific' organizations creately solely for the purpose of propaganda. Like I said, the leading scientists in this field say it is undeniably real AND that it's caused by humans. Then some propaganda piece will be released touting warming as a myth and the media will report "Global Warming - Scientists Opinions Still Differ".


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Source]
    #3000843 - 08/13/04 03:11 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Exactly.  It took me all of 2 minutes worth of research online to discover the funding source for your movie "The Greening of Planet Earth":
the coal industry via Western Fuels and Exxon/Mobil

big surprise  :rolleyes:


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3000845 - 08/13/04 03:11 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

For the record, I hope you're right! I get no pleasure from thinking we are heading in the wrong direction!


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: question_for_joo]
    #3000861 - 08/13/04 03:15 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Ha ha ha! Good job!


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: question_for_joo]
    #3000881 - 08/13/04 03:20 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

What? Were you expecting the Democratic party to fund it? Attack the content, not the funding.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Source]
    #3000892 - 08/13/04 03:22 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

So does that mean that if humans didn't come along and liberate all the carbon trapped in the earth's crust all life would have eventually ended due to lack of free carbon?




how did you come up with that question? And tell me how I implied it.

Quote:

I really don't know about that. Who financed that documentary?




I don't know really. I don't believe either side 100%. I guess I could ask the same thing about most of the global warming crowd, How many are funded by groups like greenpeace, the siera club and other wacky groups?

Quote:

But what is becomming increasingly clear is that due to the excessive amounts of carbon we are facing real problems NOW.




pertaining to global warming or pollution in general? Many here keep changing the topic of global warming to pollution. We can all agree that there'sa too much pollution but linking it to global warming is a scare tactic IMHO

Quote:

Oil companies set up phony 'scientific' organizations creately solely for the purpose of propaganda.




and global warming groups don't?

Quote:

Like I said, the leading scientists in this field say it is undeniably real AND that it's caused by humans.




I've also heard from "leading" scientist just the opposite. I've heard from some that the temperature has actually dropped in direct opposition of global warming opinions. who's right?

Quote:

Then some propaganda piece will be released touting warming as a myth and the media will report "Global Warming - Scientists Opinions Still Differ".




but many will believe one side while having no concrete evidence to prove it. Is the world being polluted? Sure but is it the direct cause of implied global warming? That's debateable.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: d33p]
    #3000919 - 08/13/04 03:28 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Even is thier documentary were true, I don;t think it would be enough to offset all the evidence that suggests that excessive CO2 is a BAD thing.

The oceans are dying, the currents may stop - creating another ice age, species accross the globe are beginning to migrate to new latitudes, ocean levels are rising...but MAN my corn looks good!


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Source]
    #3000932 - 08/13/04 03:30 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Source said:
Even is thier documentary were true, I don;t think it would be enough to offset all the evidence that suggests that excessive CO2 is a BAD thing.

The oceans are dying, the currents may stop - creating another ice age, species accross the globe are beginning to migrate to new latitudes, ocean levels are rising...but MAN my corn looks good!




Well there is an enormous ammount of evidence that the wod is good but that doesn't make it true. Maybe co2 is killing the ocean and xtc really does cause holes in your brain. I'm not sure and i would prefer to get more info before i make my decision.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Source]
    #3000987 - 08/13/04 03:41 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

If you're satisfied with the evidence you have then that's fine. I can't prove or disprove these "experts" you speak of but you do know that higher crop yeilds is a good thing and can atleast be proven true. Higher yeilds can feed more people.

Quote:

The oceans are dying, the currents may stop - creating another ice age




not this again.....what caused the other Ice ages? Man? Did the Earth survive? What caused them? Oh yeah, nature.
and I doubt the currents wouls stop.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3001008 - 08/13/04 03:44 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I asked that question because I was under the impression (perhaps falsely) that the implication of the documentary was that plants are running short on CO2 and that humans liberating that CO2 is good to plant life. I think I assumed (wrongly) that they were implying an imbalance in nature.

The problems I claim we are facing now result directly from both CO2 itself and global warming. (i.e. shorebirds I mentioned, plankton, migrations, sea levels, diseases, ice-age, at least some species of whales, drought, floods...)

Yeah, I see your point about environmentalists groups also funding thier own research in order to verify the views THEY hold. I don't know for sure why I side with the environmentalists on this. Maybe it's because I'd rather be safe than sorry. Maybe it's because the energy companies have so much more to gain and lose (and thier morals are highly suspect considering some of the shit they pull off working with oppressive governments, etc.), maybe it's because my common sense tells me dumping billions of tons of anything in the atmosphere that wasn't there before is just stupid, let alone something that causes heat to be trapped. Maybe it's because environmentalists have more evidence to support thier case (in my opinion).


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3001082 - 08/13/04 03:56 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I'm trying to listen to each side but unfortunatly many on the opposition keep giving stats that they claim to be fact like the earth will be in deep shit in 50 years when there is absolutly no evidence to back up that claim

Do you see the pentagon as "the opposition"? Never really thought of them as treehuggers to be honest. Would they really say what a terrible threat we face if there was "absolutely no evidence"?


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3001107 - 08/13/04 04:02 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

but many will believe one side while having no concrete evidence to prove it.

How concrete does the evidence have to be before we think about doing something? If we cut pollution now even if we're wrong the earth isn't going to suffer. If we just say "The evidence isn't 100% concrete enough for me yet" we keep on fucking the planet and then in 50 years when it's way too late to do anything about we go "Oh fuck, we are causing it after all".

Too late then isn't it.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3001109 - 08/13/04 04:02 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

"not this again.....what caused the other Ice ages? Man? Did the Earth survive? What caused them? Oh yeah, nature.
'and I doubt the currents wouls stop. "

Actually, I'm not really sure what caused the last ice age but the science is pretty straight forward that a new Ice age could start, beginning with the melting of the greenland ice sheet.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3001636 - 08/13/04 06:05 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)



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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Xlea321]
    #3008254 - 08/16/04 08:19 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

How concrete does the evidence have to be before we think about doing something? If we cut pollution now even if we're wrong the earth isn't going to suffer.




You're preaching to the choir my man, I never said that we shouldn't cut down on pollution (but it's funny how you keep bringing it up). This conversation is moving from it's topic of Global warming to pollution control. I'm all for cutting down pollution which has nothing to do with global warming but my preference towards swimming in clean water.

Quote:

"The evidence isn't 100% concrete enough for me yet" we keep on fucking the planet and then in 50 years when it's way too late to do anything about we go "Oh fuck, we are causing it after all".





see above. I still don't like to be like chicken little. You may, but I don't.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Source]
    #3008257 - 08/16/04 08:21 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Actually, I'm not really sure what caused the last ice age but the science is pretty straight forward that a new Ice age could start, beginning with the melting of the greenland ice sheet.




are you implying that it will be a natural occurance or a man made problem?


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3008710 - 08/16/04 01:21 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Best summing up of the situation:

http://yosemite.epa.gov/oar/globalwarming.nsf/content/climateuncertainties.html

[Conclusion of article:]
"...Living with Uncertainty
Like many pioneer fields of research, the current state of global warming science can't always provide definitive answers to our questions. There is certainty that human activities are rapidly adding greenhouse gases to the atmosphere, and that these gases tend to warm our planet. This is the basis for concern about global warming.

The fundamental scientific uncertainties are these: How much more warming will occur? How fast will this warming occur? And what are the potential adverse and beneficial effects? These uncertainties will be with us for some time, perhaps decades.

Global warming poses real risks. The exact nature of these risks remains uncertain. Ultimately, this is why we have to use our best judgement ? guided by the current state of science ? to determine what the most appropriate response to global warming should be."


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Tao]
    #3008794 - 08/16/04 01:52 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Like many pioneer fields of research, the current state of global warming science can't always provide definitive answers to our questions. There is certainty that human activities are rapidly adding greenhouse gases to the atmosphere, and that these gases tend to warm our planet.




wow, he contradicts himself in the very first sentence. If science can't provide definite answers (which is debateable) why does he in fact say that human activities are rapidly adding greenhouse gases to the atmosphere, and that these gases tend to warm our planet as a matter of fact? It is apparant that there is no definite evidence and all I had to do was play devil's advocate. it's a big guess at best. I respect those that want to make the planet cleaner, however I don't like them using global warming as a scare tactic (echo in here?).

It seems sorta funny that many here have said that the planet is not actually warming but cooling at the same time as these scientists they quote say the opposite. Temperature has only been measured for the last hundred to a couple hundred years (give or take a few) but everyone seems to think that they have enough data that they can predict and analize the weather which has been changing for about 4-5 billion years (that would be an analysis of .0000000044% of the total data) You do realize that the temperatures that scientist say about the past are educated estimates (I would guess to the nearest couple of degees (i could be wrong about the exact estimate).

Quote:

The fundamental scientific uncertainties are these: How much more warming will occur? How fast will this warming occur? And what are the potential adverse and beneficial effects? These uncertainties will be with us for some time, perhaps decades.




My questions would be: Are we in fact warming at all? I'd want proof. Is this warming a natural occurance if it is in fact warming? How much warming can we take before there is a problem? Is the Earth cooling? If so why?

Quote:

Global warming poses real risks. The exact nature of these risks remains uncertain. Ultimately, this is why we have to use our best judgement ? guided by the current state of science ? to determine what the most appropriate response to global warming should be."




No, global warming is a scare tactic to get people to do something that they should be doing in the first place, not polluting.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3008801 - 08/16/04 01:54 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

There seems to be evidence (not withstanding your correct concern that samples of CO2 may only be taken from one location on earth) that CO2 level began to increase dramatically at about the beginning of the industrial revolution reaching a level now not seen in hundreds of thousands of years. There also seems to be evidence that temperature follows the concentration of CO2 levels. Put the three together and it looks like the activities of man are responsible for global warming. Besides, do you think it is only coincidence that at the same time humans begin pumping large amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere, the global temperature begins to rise?

If you aren't already familiar with the possible scenario, it goes something like this: As the ice on Greenland melts http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3?img_id=15341 the fresh water is deposited into the northern atlantic in the area where normally brackish/highly salty water descends to the sea floor creating the north atlantic ocean current (gulf stream and canary current) which flows all the way south to the equator where the water is warmed up, rises and moves north again. This current brings as much warmth to western Europe as the sun directly.

As the fresh water mixes with the salty water in the north atlantic, the water will not sink as fast, slowing or possibly stopping the momentum of the current. Actually scientists have confirmed that the current is already slowing down

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,872590,00.html

This is the scenario that was played out in the movie 'Day After Tomorrow'. While climatologists generally agree that the scenario is very possible (if not already occuring) they dispute the rapidity of events portrayed in the movie (decades to ice age vs. days).

So...in a nutshell...yes I am saying humans could cause the next ice age, or at least a mini ice age.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Source]
    #3008887 - 08/16/04 02:21 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Besides, do you think it is only coincidence that at the same time humans begin pumping large amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere, the global temperature begins to rise?




Wait a minute, some here have in fact said that global warming isn't in fact a warming of the globe...i'm confused now. I haven't seen evidence that we are in fact warming up. Is there actual proof that we are? And if so could this increase be from, hell I don't know, the Sun?

The average temperature has risen and fell within this century, what's to say that this wasn't just a natural occurrence?

Quote:

As the fresh water mixes with the salty water in the north Atlantic, the water will not sink as fast, slowing or possibly stopping the momentum of the current. Actually scientists have confirmed that the current is already slowing down




I'm not debating wether or not this could happen if we warmed or cooled off, I'm on the side that says this is a natural occurrence.

Quote:

This is the scenario that was played out in the movie 'Day After Tomorrow'. While climatologists generally agree that the scenario is very possible (if not already occurring) they dispute the rapidity of events portrayed in the movie (decades to ice age vs. days).




Funny you should bring a fictional movie in to this, especially this one. A few weeks ago this was a topic of some show I was watching and MANY scientists said this scenario was NOT possible. They did qualify it by saying it would take a long, long time but all at once is not realistic.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3008896 - 08/16/04 02:24 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Inny, your lack of reading comprehension and willingness to read the link i provided (its a very small faq and answered some of the very questions you went on to pose) is giving me a headache.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Tao]
    #3008931 - 08/16/04 02:36 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

wow, making it personal already. Nice job. It isn't my fault many of you just believe anything you hear. I've made MANY valid points and many haven't bothered to answer or discuss them, with the exception of Source. It's also funny how the conversation keeps switching to polluting and my supposed denial of it happening and not Global warming (or whatever you want to call it). Feel frre to keep your headache out of the conversation if you can't make a valid point.

Face it, you're just guessing.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3009010 - 08/16/04 03:04 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Quote:

Like many pioneer fields of research, the current state of global warming science can't always provide definitive answers to our questions. There is certainty that human activities are rapidly adding greenhouse gases to the atmosphere, and that these gases tend to warm our planet.




wow, he contradicts himself in the very first sentence. If science can't provide definite answers (which is debateable) why does he in fact say that human activities are rapidly adding greenhouse gases to the atmosphere, and that these gases tend to warm our planet as a matter of fact?




okay, now read what he wrote: "science can't always provide definitive answers" and then read how you quoted him: "science can't provide definite answers". notice a significant word you left out there when quoting him? what's that you say? its no longer a contradiction but a perfectly reasonable statement?

Quote:


It is apparant that there is no definite evidence



try reading the link instead of just the snippet i quoted. the earth overall is warming. thats definite.


Quote:

it's a big guess at best.




its a little more than a guess:
1) the earth is warming (fact)
2) there is a historical correlation between carbon molecules percentage in the atmosphere and global temperature as well as a scientific model explaining why this would be the case (greenhouse gases trap the heat)
3) The percentage of carbon molecules in the atmosphere has drastically risen since the beginning of the industrial revolution (fact).

Though this is not enough to make scientific certainty, I believe it is enough (and so do most countries judging from the Kyoto protocol) to warrant action based upon the precautionary principle in face of such potentially drastic results.

Oh and to your earlier comment about fact vs. theory? you know what else is 'just a theory'? EVOLUTION.

Quote:

I don't like them using global warming as a scare tactic (echo in here?).



yes there is an echo in here, you keep repeating this accusation though it is not true. many scientists have said that they would sincerely like to believe that global warming is not happening, that it is not true, but they are forced to accept the reality of it. the science field generally has conservative leanings not liberal. read the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Control (IPCC) findings--it is comprehensive of the findings of 99.9% of all climatologists on Earth. They concluded that there is a "discernible human influence" on climate meaning that the observed global warming is unlikely to be the result of natural variability alone and that human activities are at least partially responsible.
Quote:


It seems sorta funny that many here have said that the planet is not actually warming but cooling at the same time as these scientists they quote say the opposite.




christ do you still not understand this concept? The more accurate and more commonly used term in the scientific community instead of 'global warming' is "climate change" because that is the real concern--climates drastically changing and some experiencing increased extreme weather patterns. some areas will warm and some areas will cool. Overall the globe will warm. comprende?

Quote:

Temperature has only been measured for the last hundred to a couple hundred years (give or take a few)



no, they use glacial records and other geological measurement methods as well.






Quote:

My questions would be: Are we in fact warming at all?



yes, that is no longer a question in the CC debate.

Quote:

Is this warming a natural occurance if it is in fact warming?



IPCC says there is discernable impact by humans.

Quote:

How much warming can we take before there is a problem?



Carbon molecules stay in the atmosphere for 100 years. should we really risk it?

The questions that remain in the debate are:

1)How much of an impact are humans having?

2) How severe will the consequences of climate change be?


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Tao]
    #3009060 - 08/16/04 03:27 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Well, I guess this debate won't go away, even though it has nothing to do with politics, activism, or law, so I'll pitch in a few facts myself.

First of all, it is most definitely not established that the earth is warming. Two out of three of the sources of actual measurements as opposed to inferences show no warming -- balloon data and satellite data from 1979 on. That's a quarter century of data, folks. The third kind of measurement -- surface measurements -- show warming in some areas and cooling in others, as has already been noted here.

Secondly, the ICPP does not represent 99.9% of all climatologists on earth. Note even close.

Next, Innvertigo is correct when he says that actual temperature measurements have been made only for the last hundred years or so. The glacial data are not measurements but instead are extrapolations and inferences. If these inferences are off by even tenths of a degree it is significant.

Finally, there is an increasing amount of data showing that to a large extent the problem of CO2 fluctuation may be self-regulating. There have been a number of studies showing that in the areas of the Earth's surface where local temperatures have increased, so has vegetative growth. The more photsynthesizing material there is in a region, the more CO2 gets drawn from the air through plant respiration. For this to make a significant difference, of course, it is necessary to leave that growth there and not just clear cut it. On the other hand, the greatest source of CO2 absorption (and O2 release) is the blue green algae in the Earth's oceans. One can't clearcut algae very easily.

pinky


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Tao]
    #3009188 - 08/16/04 03:53 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Figuring out to what extent the human-induced accumulation of greenhouse gases since pre-industrial times is responsible for the global warming trend is not easy. This is because other factors, both natural and human, affect our planet's temperature. Scientific understanding of these other factors ? most notably natural climatic variations, changes in the sun's energy, and the cooling effects of pollutant aerosols ? remains incomplete.

You mean there's a chance this could all be natural?

As atmospheric levels of greenhouse gases continue to rise, scientists estimate average global temperatures will continue to rise as a result. By how much and how fast remain uncertain. IPCC projects further global warming of 2.2-10?F (1.4-5.8?C) by the year 2100. This range results from uncertainties in greenhouse gas emissions, the possible cooling effects of atmospheric particles such as sulfates, and the climate's response to changes in the atmosphere.

I guess I missed the part about the temperature actually rising.

I could reply to your links if you'd like but they still don't answer my question. Is the Earth actually cooling or heating up? and is it possible that it is natural?

Quote:

1) the earth is warming (fact)




fact and fiction, the earth heats and cools. During the early portion of this century the climate warmed and during the 70's and 80's it cooled.



It looks from this graph that it heats and cools in a pattern of sorts.

Quote:

2) there is a historical correlation between carbon molecules percentage in the atmosphere and global temperature as well as a scientific model explaining why this would be the case (greenhouse gases trap the heat)





noone's disputing that that one area had these readings and this conclusion had been made, i'm asking whether or not these readings are natural? I mean noone here has answered the question as to what caused the peak temperature spikes in the past.

Quote:

3) The percentage of carbon molecules in the atmosphere has drastically risen since the beginning of the industrial revolution (fact).




and still the temperature has risen and fallen, why?

Quote:

I believe it is enough (and so do most countries judging from the Kyoto protocol)




54 countries have ratified, but none of which are major developed countries

Quote:

Oh and to your earlier comment about fact vs. theory? you know what else is 'just a theory'? EVOLUTION.





your point?

Quote:

yes there is an echo in here, you keep repeating this accusation though it is not true. many scientists have said that they would sincerely like to believe that global warming is not happening




what a coincedence, there are many scientists who agree that there is no global warming.

Quote:

christ do you still not understand this concept?




I understand what you're saying but you people are talking out of both sides of your mouth. The scientists tend to say the world is increasing in temperature. Am I wrong?

Quote:

The more accurate and more commonly used term in the scientific community instead of 'global warming' is "climate change" because that is the real concern




so global warming is in fact not happening then? In fact it's just climate change. Ok, got it. I suppose if you keep changing the meaning eventually you'll be right no matter how insignificant that discovery may be.

I hate to question your wisdom but doesn't climate change happen naturaly?

Quote:

climates drastically changing and some experiencing increased extreme weather patterns. some areas will warm and some areas will cool. Overall the globe will warm. comprende?




What would happen to countries like Africa if they cooled because of a natural climate change? Sounds good to me.

Quote:

no, they use glacial records and other geological measurement methods as well.




really? so they're able to get accurate temperature readings 10,000 years ago to the degree? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt (for sake of discussion) but that still doesn't explain the natural fluctuations of the heating and cooling of the Earth. I wonder why the temperature increased from the 10th to the 15th century? Must be industries fault...wait a minute.....

Your's Truly,

Devils Advocate


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Edited by Innvertigo (08/16/04 04:19 PM)


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3009284 - 08/16/04 04:18 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)





http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/slides/05.02.htm

edit: fucked up the thread by trying to make the image big enough. follow the link to get a bigger image.


Edited by TaoTeChing (08/16/04 04:37 PM)


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Tao]
    #3009307 - 08/16/04 04:22 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

weathermen and scientists have a hard time predicting tommarrow's weather, what makes you think they'll be able to tell you what it will be in 10 years from now, let alone 100?

Future data means nothing when there's no data to compare it to.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3009375 - 08/16/04 04:33 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Wait a sec, first you were saying that the data didn't go back long enough, then you and pinky are using a study since 1979 that only used one method of measurement (satellite)??


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3009390 - 08/16/04 04:36 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

"Funny you should bring a fictional movie in to this, especially this one. A few weeks ago this was a topic of some show I was watching and MANY scientists said this scenario was NOT possible. They did qualify it by saying it would take a long, long time but all at once is not realistic."

Hmmm, that link I posted,

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,872590,00.html

says,

"This deep water convection in the north Atlantic has already been noted to be slowing down by British scientists, and US scientists say the trend could profoundly impact global ocean circulation and climate. "In other studies, changes in the north Atlantic circulation have been implicated in starting and stopping northern hemisphere ice ages," Mr Serreze said."

So at least according to some, not only is it possible, it is actually happening now.

Well, I don't personally believe there is any doubt that the earth is warming. Just look at the glaciers that are disappearing. These things are ANCIENT and thier melting very quickly. Have you seen old pictures of glacier bay and compared them to pictures today?

So, I guess the only remaining question is...are humans to blame?

I think the information out there is purposely muddied...you can find any information to back up whatever it is you WANT to believe (both ways). It may not be possible for us to get any clear 'yes or no'...although I remember reading an article that said both the U.S. and U.K. head climatologists had said human activity is to blame.

Anyway...at this point it probably does't matter.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3009638 - 08/16/04 05:23 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Innvertigo,
You might have answered this one, but...
What if it turns out your right and global warming is just a scare tactic (I'm an environmental geology major and I, along with every staff member in my department believes it's happening, but.. whatever)? If it's just overblown... For starters, why do you think it's being used as a scare tactic? Second, so what? We're still helping the environment in other ways by trying to limit our oil drilling. Still reducing our dependance on Arab oil. Still advancing technology. Still preparing for a time when oil is gonna simply become too expensive to use (definitely in the next six decades). So what's the harm in worrying about global warming, even if it does turn out to be wrong?


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Gijith]
    #3009718 - 08/16/04 05:43 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

What if it turns out your right and global warming is just a scare tactic




No need for what if's, it is what it is.

Quote:

(I'm an environmental geology major and I, along with every staff member in my department believes it's happening, but.. whatever)?




that sounds interesting, really. Now answer this: Explain to me the reason the earth warmed in the past when there were no industries and does the earth warm and cool naturally?

Are you basing the evidence of 150 some years (I believe I read that temperature has been recorded since about 1860's (it's somewhere in that century)) of data where only about 35 or so has been accuratly measured globally. The Earth is 4.5 billion years old and according to many studies that have been done the earth has flucuated from a lot warmer to a lot colder.

Quote:

If it's just overblown... For starters, why do you think it's being used as a scare tactic? Second, so what?




the problem is that I don't like to be lied to, i'm a grown man, give me your reasons or don't tell me anything at all. Some politicians push their agenda through using these kinds of tactics, you may think it's ok, but I don't.

Quote:

We're still helping the environment in other ways by trying to limit our oil drilling.




Our oil "drilling" is not polluting the earth.

Quote:

Still reducing our dependance on Arab oil.




What's the difference between dependance of Arab oil and dependence of Mexican oil? We're mearly shifting our dependence.

Quote:

Still advancing technology. Still preparing for a time when oil is gonna simply become too expensive to use (definitely in the next six decades)




This has nothing to do with global warming as I have said numerous times. I'm all for alternative fuel supplies and can't wait for the day we no longer need oil and can rely on solar, hydro and natural gas only. But masking these projects behind the fictitious "global warming" scare only hurts the validity of the alternatives.

Quote:

So what's the harm in worrying about global warming, even if it does turn out to be wrong?




I tend not to like worrying about things that aren't there. Why not just push the environmental agenda by stating that we should all pollute less and prosecute industries that don't follow EPA standards? I just don't believe that the sky is falling. That doesn't mean I throw my oil in the water release CFC's into the sky and drop my bottles and cans in the rivers. On the contrary, I love the environment and support our local DNR whenever I can.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3010210 - 08/16/04 08:03 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
No need for what if's, it is what it is.




:wink:

Quote:

Now answer this:  Explain to me the reason the earth warmed in the past when there were no industries and does the earth warm and cool naturally?




That I can do.
The reason for the Earth's biggest shifts in climate over time actually have nothing to do with what goes on here on the planet. It's astronomical. There are changes and patterns in the tilt of the Earth's axis, precession of the equinoxes, eccentricity of it's orbit. These kinda things that happen inside the solar system were used by a guy named Milankovitch to explain ancient climate change. And  he was dead on. When you take the sum of all of these curves and then plot it over climate change over the past billion years, it's near perfect (I know there's a good graphic of this somewhere in one of my books. I'll find it). There are also variations that happen on a galactic level that could,in theory, affect climate. I don't know too much about these, but from what I've read, their changes takes place over such a huge amount of time, that it doesn't really concern us. There's also a solar cycle of sun spots every eleven years or so. But these have almost no effect.
Now, as far as shit that happens on Earth. The biggest local reason is  variation in ocean circulation. This is hard to explain without writing a whole paper, but here's the idea: the oceans have always found a way to form a worldwide flow of water that heats and cools certain regions. The flow that's going on right now is referred to as a conveyor belt and is heated and cooled by seasons, jet stream, etc. When major changes are made to certain parts of the conveyor belt, particularly the section in the Northern Atlantic, the whole world climate tends to drastically change (info on this is the first thing someone should look up before they get into debates on global warming). There's also processes called Orogeny and Epeirogeny that have the ability to change climate. Orogeny basically has to do with mountains on the Earths surface and how they affect internal mantle currents (the higher the mountain, the deeper the crust). Epeirogeny just has to do with continent formation and loaction, which just ties into the oceans currents thing. And finally, greenhouse gases... But we've all been over them.
Hope that at least answered part of your question. Please followup if  you need more info.

Quote:

the problem is that I don't like to be lied to, i'm a grown man, give me your reasons or don't tell me anything at all.  Some politicians push their agenda through using these kinds of tactics, you may think it's ok, but I don't.




Fair enough. But if such politicians don't actually believe in global warming, what do you think the alterior motive? What do you think is the actually agenda?


Quote:

Our oil "drilling" is not polluting the earth.




I was just thinking about Alaska when I mentioned that. Maybe there's other examples. I don't know.

Quote:

What's the difference between dependance of Arab oil and dependence of Mexican oil?  We're mearly shifting our dependence.




Shit I don't wanna shift dependence. I just want less.

Quote:

This has nothing to do with global warming as I have said numerous times.  I'm all for alternative fuel supplies and can't wait for the day we no longer need oil and can rely on solar, hydro and natural gas only.  But masking these projects behind the fictitious "global warming" scare only hurts the validity of the alternatives.




Understood

Quote:

I tend not to like worrying about things that aren't there.  Why not just push the environmental agenda by stating that we should all pollute less and prosecute industries that don't follow EPA standards?  I just don't believe that the sky is falling.  That doesn't mean I throw my oil in the water release CFC's into the sky and drop my bottles and cans in the rivers.  On the contrary, I love the environment and support our local DNR whenever I can.




I agree. It's sad that the last two presidents to push this, Nixon and Carter, are both viewed negatively in general.
:cheers:

edit: I'm sure this thread is getting real close to being shut down. pinkie, could you please be cool enough to just move it and not lock it? I wanna keep this going if possible.


Edited by Gijith (08/16/04 09:40 PM)


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Gijith]
    #3010431 - 08/16/04 09:25 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Gijith said:
edit: I'm sure this thread is getting real close to being shut down. pinkie, could you please be cool enough to just move it and not lock it? I wanna keep this going if possible.




When did this become your thread Gijith? It's up to the mods but if it's gonna be either moved or locked I'd rather it just be locked. The other thread got a grand total of about 5 additional replies after it was moved to Science & Technology. If it's locked on this forum at least other people in the future have more chance of finding it.
I think this has been a good thread. I even like Invertigo's constant repetition of his 'arguments' cause it let everyone else explain the reality of global warming that much more thoroughly.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: question_for_joo]
    #3010448 - 08/16/04 09:28 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

sorry man, didn't mean to imply anything. and you make a good point. it'd be good if people can find it.
:sorry:


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Gijith]
    #3010497 - 08/16/04 09:36 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

no offense taken. I'm glad you finally explained the prior warming periods in geologic history because that was a very important counterargument to debunk and it's something I myself didn't know.
Being an environmental science major I'm sure you know about stuff like the Earth's magnetic field polarity shift many scientists expect coming up soon. They also said something about the Earth's axis aligning with the galaxy...around 2012. Funny We're in for changes on a grand scale. My personal belief is that maybe this time god's experiment is set up such that there's gonna be warming one way or another but unless we don't control our greenhouse gas emissions Earth won't be able to recover as it has each time in the geological past. That's when it becomes a runaway greenhouse effect like planet Venus. I'm keeping my fingers crossed and riding my bike. It's a good thing the oil supplies gonna start running thin at this time in human history. we'll see.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: psilomonkey]
    #3011094 - 08/17/04 12:02 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/distract/ig.htm

edit: wtf? that was suppossed to be for Inny. stupid quickreply

just because it hasn't been conclusively proven does not mean that therefore you know it has no validity and is nothing more than a scare tactic. its not like the IPCC is funded by the sierra club (unlike some studies funded by Shell and Exxon).


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Gijith]
    #3012231 - 08/17/04 07:04 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The reason for the Earth's biggest shifts in climate over time actually have nothing to do with what goes on here on the planet




So to sum up your very well thought out response: The heating and cooling of the Earth in the past and present is caused by natural occurances.

Quote:

But if such politicians don't actually believe in global warming, what do you think the alterior motive? What do you think is the actually agenda?




It's hard to tell. But it really doesn't matter to me, a lie is a lie. people seem to be react to scare tactics more than the truth.

Quote:

I was just thinking about Alaska when I mentioned that. Maybe there's other examples.




What part of Alaska is being polluted? Anware? (sp) I'm all for drilling in Alaska and to be honest with you the local animal population has be positively affected by the oil pipeline (moose, deer, etc)

Quote:

Shit I don't wanna shift dependence. I just want less.




Unfortunatly oil is a necesary product until a new one comes along which we should all be looking into.

Quote:

I'm sure this thread is getting real close to being shut down




I haven't got personal yet, if I do then they'll shut it down.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Tao]
    #3013058 - 08/17/04 01:16 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

just because it hasn't been conclusively proven does not mean that therefore you know it has no validity and is nothing more than a scare tactic.




It also doesn't mean it's a credible threat and without evidence it will remain a theory backed up with guesses. I believe it is a scare tactic and it always amazes me that the Global Warming crowd comes out every summer to say: "hey guys, look how hot it is, it's global warming". You never see these people coming to northern states in February mentioning it.

your link forgets one major thing, you people are claiming it (Global warming, Global cooling, Climate Change, Enron, whatever you want to call it) to be fact when the evidence is against you. Face the only thing that is fact in this whole conversation: The earth's climate changes are due to natural flucuations.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3013248 - 08/17/04 02:00 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

the evidence is against you.



please explain that whopper.


Quote:

the Global Warming crowd comes out every summer to say: "hey guys, look how hot it is, it's global warming". You never see these people coming to northern states in February mentioning it.



if by 'global warming crowd' you mean 'stupid uninformed hippies', then yes. that's like me boiling down the entire conservative movement to redneck KKK members. if you've noticed, ive not said a thing regarding that the hot summer is indicative of climate change.

Quote:

The earth's climate changes are due to natural flucuations.



the point is that we haven't seen such a spike like this in such a short span of time for perhaps ever.

again i point you to the correlation between CO2 and temps throughout history and the mass production of CO2 by burning fossil fuels. the parts per million (PPM) has increased dramatically since we began the IR.

A 'guess' is something like "well it could be us". this is not what all the studies are saying (like the IPCC and bush's own commissioned study), they are saying "it is highly likely it is us". this is much different from what you flippantly refer to as a 'guess'. don't you think its pretty likely that changing the composition of the atmosphere might have an effect on the climate? and to you who accuse this of being the work of alarmists--the last 'alarm' was about CFCs and the ozone layer and that was true and dealt with forcefully in the Montreal Protocol by a complete ban of CFCs by the developed countries (because the consequences were soon seen by the massive hole in the ozone). unfortunately, global warming will have longer consequences since greenhouse gases can last 100 years in the atmosphere.

Again, from our government's own website (not the sierra club, not greenpeace, not 'alarmists with alterior motives'):

"There is no doubt this atmospheric buildup of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases is largely the result of human activities.

It's well accepted [note inny: they don't say "its possible that..."] by scientists that greenhouse gases trap heat in the Earth's atmosphere and tend to warm the planet."

connect the dots inny. this is not a 'guess'.

"By increasing the levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, human activities are strengthening Earth's natural greenhouse effect."

this is why the fact that the earth heats and cools regularly is not a contradiction to the findings, this is obviously known by scientists. its the fact that we are speeding the process which a) we don't want (so many of us live on coasts and desertification will substantially increase for the africans) and b) earth might not be adapted to deal with at such a rapid pace--the severest rammification would be the halting of the ocean conveyor belt.

to put it in your terms: if you discovered it was likely that you were about to be attacked or murdered in your house in the next week, would you go buy a gun or would you sit and say "well, its not a proven fact that it will happen. I don't think I'll act until I know for certain, say, when the intruder is already in my house" i think i know what you would do.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Tao]
    #3013547 - 08/17/04 02:46 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

please explain that whopper.




no whopper needs to be explained.  It's interesting to note that while many here say don't discount the possibility of a man made disaster, noone on the opposing side has thought of the possibility that this is a natural flucuation of weather patterns.  The evidence is there, Do you concede that the cooling and heating of the Earth over tens of thousands of years has been natural?  If not then what caused it? (another echo).

Quote:

if by 'global warming crowd' you mean 'stupid uninformed hippies', then yes. that's like me boiling down the entire conservative movement to redneck KKK members. if you've noticed, ive not said a thing regarding that the hot summer is indicative of climate change.




now you're putting words in my mouth, you know what I meant. 

Quote:

It's well accepted [note inny: they don't say "its possible that..."] by scientists that greenhouse gases trap heat in the Earth's atmosphere and tend to warm the planet."




This is where you loss a little credibility, in one breath you say that global warming isn't in fact a warming of the globe (whatever :rolleyes:, for the sake or argument i'll concede), then in the next breath you say that it is well accepted by scientists that greenhouse gases trap heat in the Earth's atmosphere and tend to warm the planet.  Which one is it?  Pick one or the other, you're all over the map.

Quote:

b) earth might not be adapted to deal with at such a rapid pace--the severest rammification would be the halting of the ocean conveyor belt.




that's pretty arrogant to think that the Earth can't handle what we do.  The Earth adapts.

Quote:

to put it in your terms: if you discovered it was likely that you were about to be attacked or murdered in your house in the next week, would you go buy a gun or would you sit and say "well, its not a proven fact that it will happen.




not a very good analogy really.  The problem is is that I don't think the Earth is suffering from whatever the catch phrase is (global warming etc.).  You say it's a fact then mention that it may be a possibility without considering that it may not be possible or very unlikly.  People like to focus on negatives rather than positives because it's easier.  You see a spike in temperature (a spike that isn't shown in satelite data from 1979) but discount the past.  Why are you denying the past?


--------------------

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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineTao
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3014079 - 08/17/04 04:38 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

noone on the opposing side has thought of the possibility that this is a natural flucuation of weather patterns.




gimme a break, of course scientists have taken this into account. otherwise global warming would be an absolute certainty.

Quote:

Do you concede that the cooling and heating of the Earth over tens of thousands of years has been natural?




"concede"?!? when have i ever not agreed with that. inny, are you even reading my posts??

"human activities are strengthening Earth's natural greenhouse effect."
[from the epa's website]

Quote:

This is where you loss a little credibility, in one breath you say that global warming isn't in fact a warming of the globe (whatever , for the sake or argument i'll concede), then in the next breath you say that it is well accepted by scientists that greenhouse gases trap heat in the Earth's atmosphere and tend to warm the planet. Which one is it? Pick one or the other, you're all over the map.




for the love of god inny, we've just been over this. the earth is such a complex system that its warming can have other consequences that will cool down certain parts of the globe. examples: melting of the polar ice sheets will cool parts of the ocean; stopping the ocean conveyor belt would terminate warm currents that pass by otherwise very cold places. OVERALL the effect will be warming. i just said that in the post before that one.

Quote:


that's pretty arrogant to think that the Earth can't handle what we do. The Earth adapts.




oh i have no doubt it will 'adapt'. just like it eventually 'adapted' to the meteor that hit 65 million years ago. the thing is, i think most of us would rather not have to deal with mass extinctions and the like (or should i say exacerbating the current mass extinction that we've caused).

Quote:

You say it's a fact



what do you mean "it's" a fact? that the globe is warming? yes. that humans are causing most of it and it will have catastrophic effects? no. i have not said that is a 'fact'.

Quote:

You see a spike in temperature but discount the past.



CC data is based on more than laymen looking at a solitary graph and saying 'oh, global warming is a fact'. your ignoring the mounds of data. read the IPCC brochure if that is all you think global warming is based upon.

Quote:

(a spike that isn't shown in satelite data from 1979)



data from one guy (who was working for the republican opposition group who were surely in the pockets of big business and oil) based on one form of measurement for 25 measly years. Thats really hypocritical to trust that data when you talk shit about the other side's data. IPCC : a) is peer-reviewed b)does not have a policy objective c) based on many climatologists findings d) based on a myriad of data and different types of measurements. none of these applies to the one source your using. if i was using something like that you would have a field day, admit it. that source is far, far from credible.

http://www.ipcc.ch/about/about.htm

To repeat my position:
1) the globe overall is warming and will continue to do so
2) Humans are contributing to, though possibly not fully responsible for, the warming.
3) The consequences are not fully known, though very likely they will be severe for costal cities due to sea level rising as the ocean warms and dry areas as desertification increases.
4) The above three premises IMO are enough to warrant action to cut down on greenhouse gases.

Quote:

People like to focus on negatives rather than positives because it's easier.




exactly, which is why so many americans have somehow managed to convince themselves that global warming isn't happening. it is much, much nicer to think that we have nothing to worry about than to have to change the we way we live.


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OfflineCyber
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Tao]
    #3017245 - 08/18/04 09:27 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

it is much, much nicer to think that we have nothing to worry about than to have to change the we way we live.




Or it could be that science is finding no global warming.

The UN Temperature data is wrong where compaired to satellite, weather balloon, and low altitude balloon data.

http://www.techcentralstation.com/081204D.html

The Global Climate models are wrong --

"Analysts have pointed out, however, that many of the assumptions used in modeling the climate are of dubious merit, with biases that tend to project catastrophic warming, and have argued that climate models have many limitations that make them unsuitable as the basis for developing public policy."

http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=pb&id=676

and

The scientist who's work the IPCC bases most of there data on have been discredited.

"The United Nations' Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change claim that human activities are responsible for nearly all Earth's recorded warming during the past two centuries is based largely upon the work of Michael Mann of the University of Virginia and Phil Jones of the University of East Anglia in England. But over the past two years, their work has been discredited by five different groups of independent research scientists."

http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforksherald/news/opinion/9243347.htm


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Cyber]
    #3018910 - 08/18/04 04:55 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Nice links.

It won't matter though. They sky is falling. I know because Chicken Little said so.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (08/18/04 04:55 PM)


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
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Registered: 04/30/03
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3072939 - 08/31/04 09:17 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Quote:

A powerful typhoon has struck eastern China, killing at least 115 people.
More than 1,800 others are reported to have been injured after the typhoon hit the coastal city of Wenling, in Zhejiang province




wow, a typhoon. Did you know that there has never been a year go by since the beginning of record keeping that there hasn't been a typhoon? What about the Hurricain that hit the US in 1906? 8,000 people died.

using this as evidence is not only sad but desperate. I'd suggest you do a little reading on this topic because you are making no sense.




Deadly typhoon races up Japan
Tuesday, 31 August, 2004
The typhoon has severely disrupted transport schedules
Typhoon Chaba is heading north up Japan's archipelago after leaving at least seven people dead in the country's southern and western regions.
It is heading north-east at about 65km/h and is expected to hit the northern island of Hokkaido later on Tuesday.

Meanwhile the Philippines is still suffering from typhoon-induced floods.

Thousands of people have been evacuated from the central Luzon area, and officials say at least 29 people have died since the flooding began.

Chaba is losing some strength - packing winds of about 108km/h (67 miles/h), down from Monday's 210km/h - but is moving faster, according to the French news agency AFP.

Chaba, which takes its name from the Thai word for hibiscus, is the 16th typhoon to affect the region this year........


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OfflineTao
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3073400 - 08/31/04 12:54 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Two conservative thinktanks (and an opinion piece in the 'grand forks herald':wtf:) write two articles spinning some data to try to cast doubt?  i wouldnt say 'nice links'.  The difference between those sources and mine is that they actually have upfront stated biases.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: question_for_joo]
    #3075310 - 08/31/04 08:55 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

:yawn:

See the following since you haven't grasped it the first time.

wow, a typhoon. Did you know that there has never been a year go by since the beginning of record keeping that there hasn't been a typhoon? What about the Hurricain that hit the US in 1906? 8,000 people died.

also:

So, by most standards, the numbers are average, or slightly below average because normally there are about 20 or so typhoons that occur in the Western Pacific each year. Sometimes, the Joint Typhoon Warning Center has to start another list of names because there have been so many storms that they exhausted the list for the current year. Running out of a list of names has not yet happened in the Atlantic.

Hurricaneville - WESTPAC

get it?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleGijith
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Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3075437 - 08/31/04 09:48 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I'm gonna go ahead and agree with Inny here that the typhoons, hurricanes and other bad weather are not tied into global warming.
The evidence just doesn't really suggest it.
I think that global warming could eventually cause natural disaster type weather, but not for some time.


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