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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3000650 - 08/13/04 02:21 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Yes the rise is definitely similar...but we whizzed past the first record (300ppm) and are still heading up (past 350ppm). We are already 17% higher than the previous record.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Source]
    #3000682 - 08/13/04 02:27 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

you're right. That area where they had that experiment is approx 17% higher that the previous record, So if it's similar to the other rises isn't it possible that there will be a similar declines?


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3000695 - 08/13/04 02:31 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
But remember that that was a core sample taken from one local place and apparantly it has been previously mentioned that the climate will not be the same globally.




Yeah, global warming is paradoxical in that it can lead to a new ice age due to the stopping of ocean currents which distribute heat. The pentagon just came out with a report citing this scenario as a real threat to U.S. national security. The effects of an over-all warming of the planet can be climatically chaotic...some places may heat up and others may cool down. But that doesn't mean CO2 levels around the world would not be uniform.

But I have to admit, I really don't know and I think you bring up a good point. If all thier core samples are from one place on the globe and if it's possible for CO2 to lump unevenly, they could be getting bogus results.

Then again...atmospheric scientists aren't idiots. If you have thought of that possibility, they have too...and I have enough faith in man to believe that if it really was an issue they wouldn't have posted the results.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Source]
    #3000724 - 08/13/04 02:37 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Bear
1. The Great "Global Warming" Myth

The greenhouse effect is a myth, and there have been extensive and complete, careful measurements which show absolutely NO increase in the average global temperature. The ones usually used in promoting this concept are based on incomplete sampling. Global warming does not exist. In fact there are so many buffers in the atmosphere that it can't happen, even if the CO2 increased hundreds of times over.

First of all, the CO2 content in the atmosphere is only a very tiny amount, about 300 parts per million. This CO2 stays in the air in equilibrium with the CO2 dissolved in the oceans. Since CO2 has a very steep curve of solubility in water, the amount in the air is critically dependent upon the sea surface temperatures (cold rain falling is an excellent CO2 scrubber). World CO2 measurements have traditionally been based on the levels tested in the air at Mona Kea Observatory in Hawaii. The charts of the levels fluctuate seasonally, rising in the summer and falling in the winter. If the levels are compared to the actual sea surface temperature measurements taken at Hilo, which is at the base of Mona Kea, the seasonal variations are seen to track exactly with the temperature. Even the gradual increase over time is duplicated in the temperature reading, as the average temperature at Hilo has been rising in exact lock step with the rise in the Mona Kea CO2 levels. (The charts of these measurement are easily available, making this a trivial exercise if you wish to verify my statements).

Burning fossil fuels is probably one of the most important aids to the life cycle on this oxygen-rich, carbon-poor planet that man can do. Most of the primeval carbon is locked away in the oil and coal deposits formed over the ages by cell death of the phytoplankton (diatoms), which created the oxygen-rich environment by decarboxylating the CO2 in the primitive atmosphere. The limits placed on CO2 are unreasonable and impede the creation of wealth which benefits everyone, and are harmful to the plant life at the same time.




http://www.thebear.org/essays2.html#anchor506009


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3000737 - 08/13/04 02:40 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
you're right. That area where they had that experiment is approx 17% higher that the previous record, So if it's similar to the other rises isn't it possible that there will be a similar declines?




Could CO2 decline? Sure. In fact a very recent study just came out showing that the oceans have absorbed about half of the CO2 thrown into the air since the industrial revolution (imagine what those graphs would have looked like without the ocean). The problem is that when CO2 is disolved in the ocean carbonic acid is created. This acid destroys the shells of plankton...the very underpinning of the entire oceanic ecosystem - not to mention the lion's share of our producers of oxygen.

Another story just broke about the shorebirds nesting around tthe U.K. Several species numbering the the hundreds of thousands have failed to produce more than a handful of offspring this year. Scientists studying the event blatantly blam global warming which is causing the plankton to move north, causing fish to starve, causing the shorebirds to starve.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Source]
    #3000753 - 08/13/04 02:45 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

In the documentary, the "greening of planet earth", many scientists have said that the increase in CO2 could be a good thing since crops need CO2 to survive, more and bigger crops also mean more oxygen. I'm trying to listen to each side but unfortunatly many on the opposition keep giving stats that they claim to be fact like the earth will be in deep shit in 50 years when there is absolutly no evidence to back up that claim. Atleast those one the other end have a valid point when it comes to the CO2 problem.

I have no idea if CO2 would be dispersed evenly or not but since there are weather patterns and high and low pressures i'd have to say no (just a guess).

I'm actually playing devil's advocate with this topic and noone can honestly say that we are even experiencing global warming (or whatever they want to call it).


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3000817 - 08/13/04 03:04 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
In the documentary, the "greening of planet earth", many scientists have said that the increase in CO2 could be a good thing since crops need CO2 to survive, more and bigger crops also mean more oxygen. I'm trying to listen to each side but unfortunatly many on the opposition keep giving stats that they claim to be fact like the earth will be in deep shit in 50 years when there is absolutly no evidence to back up that claim. Atleast those one the other end have a valid point when it comes to the CO2 problem.




So does that mean that if humans didn't come along and liberate all the carbon trapped in the earth's crust all life would have eventually ended due to lack of free carbon?

I really don't know about that. Who financed that documentary? But what is becomming increasingly clear is that due to the excessive amounts of carbon we are facing real problems NOW.

Oil companies set up phony 'scientific' organizations creately solely for the purpose of propaganda. Like I said, the leading scientists in this field say it is undeniably real AND that it's caused by humans. Then some propaganda piece will be released touting warming as a myth and the media will report "Global Warming - Scientists Opinions Still Differ".


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Source]
    #3000843 - 08/13/04 03:11 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Exactly.  It took me all of 2 minutes worth of research online to discover the funding source for your movie "The Greening of Planet Earth":
the coal industry via Western Fuels and Exxon/Mobil

big surprise  :rolleyes:


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3000845 - 08/13/04 03:11 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

For the record, I hope you're right! I get no pleasure from thinking we are heading in the wrong direction!


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: question_for_joo]
    #3000861 - 08/13/04 03:15 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Ha ha ha! Good job!


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Offlined33p
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: question_for_joo]
    #3000881 - 08/13/04 03:20 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

What? Were you expecting the Democratic party to fund it? Attack the content, not the funding.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Source]
    #3000892 - 08/13/04 03:22 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

So does that mean that if humans didn't come along and liberate all the carbon trapped in the earth's crust all life would have eventually ended due to lack of free carbon?




how did you come up with that question? And tell me how I implied it.

Quote:

I really don't know about that. Who financed that documentary?




I don't know really. I don't believe either side 100%. I guess I could ask the same thing about most of the global warming crowd, How many are funded by groups like greenpeace, the siera club and other wacky groups?

Quote:

But what is becomming increasingly clear is that due to the excessive amounts of carbon we are facing real problems NOW.




pertaining to global warming or pollution in general? Many here keep changing the topic of global warming to pollution. We can all agree that there'sa too much pollution but linking it to global warming is a scare tactic IMHO

Quote:

Oil companies set up phony 'scientific' organizations creately solely for the purpose of propaganda.




and global warming groups don't?

Quote:

Like I said, the leading scientists in this field say it is undeniably real AND that it's caused by humans.




I've also heard from "leading" scientist just the opposite. I've heard from some that the temperature has actually dropped in direct opposition of global warming opinions. who's right?

Quote:

Then some propaganda piece will be released touting warming as a myth and the media will report "Global Warming - Scientists Opinions Still Differ".




but many will believe one side while having no concrete evidence to prove it. Is the world being polluted? Sure but is it the direct cause of implied global warming? That's debateable.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: d33p]
    #3000919 - 08/13/04 03:28 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Even is thier documentary were true, I don;t think it would be enough to offset all the evidence that suggests that excessive CO2 is a BAD thing.

The oceans are dying, the currents may stop - creating another ice age, species accross the globe are beginning to migrate to new latitudes, ocean levels are rising...but MAN my corn looks good!


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Offlined33p
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Source]
    #3000932 - 08/13/04 03:30 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Source said:
Even is thier documentary were true, I don;t think it would be enough to offset all the evidence that suggests that excessive CO2 is a BAD thing.

The oceans are dying, the currents may stop - creating another ice age, species accross the globe are beginning to migrate to new latitudes, ocean levels are rising...but MAN my corn looks good!




Well there is an enormous ammount of evidence that the wod is good but that doesn't make it true. Maybe co2 is killing the ocean and xtc really does cause holes in your brain. I'm not sure and i would prefer to get more info before i make my decision.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Source]
    #3000987 - 08/13/04 03:41 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

If you're satisfied with the evidence you have then that's fine. I can't prove or disprove these "experts" you speak of but you do know that higher crop yeilds is a good thing and can atleast be proven true. Higher yeilds can feed more people.

Quote:

The oceans are dying, the currents may stop - creating another ice age




not this again.....what caused the other Ice ages? Man? Did the Earth survive? What caused them? Oh yeah, nature.
and I doubt the currents wouls stop.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3001008 - 08/13/04 03:44 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I asked that question because I was under the impression (perhaps falsely) that the implication of the documentary was that plants are running short on CO2 and that humans liberating that CO2 is good to plant life. I think I assumed (wrongly) that they were implying an imbalance in nature.

The problems I claim we are facing now result directly from both CO2 itself and global warming. (i.e. shorebirds I mentioned, plankton, migrations, sea levels, diseases, ice-age, at least some species of whales, drought, floods...)

Yeah, I see your point about environmentalists groups also funding thier own research in order to verify the views THEY hold. I don't know for sure why I side with the environmentalists on this. Maybe it's because I'd rather be safe than sorry. Maybe it's because the energy companies have so much more to gain and lose (and thier morals are highly suspect considering some of the shit they pull off working with oppressive governments, etc.), maybe it's because my common sense tells me dumping billions of tons of anything in the atmosphere that wasn't there before is just stupid, let alone something that causes heat to be trapped. Maybe it's because environmentalists have more evidence to support thier case (in my opinion).


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3001082 - 08/13/04 03:56 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I'm trying to listen to each side but unfortunatly many on the opposition keep giving stats that they claim to be fact like the earth will be in deep shit in 50 years when there is absolutly no evidence to back up that claim

Do you see the pentagon as "the opposition"? Never really thought of them as treehuggers to be honest. Would they really say what a terrible threat we face if there was "absolutely no evidence"?


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3001107 - 08/13/04 04:02 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

but many will believe one side while having no concrete evidence to prove it.

How concrete does the evidence have to be before we think about doing something? If we cut pollution now even if we're wrong the earth isn't going to suffer. If we just say "The evidence isn't 100% concrete enough for me yet" we keep on fucking the planet and then in 50 years when it's way too late to do anything about we go "Oh fuck, we are causing it after all".

Too late then isn't it.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3001109 - 08/13/04 04:02 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

"not this again.....what caused the other Ice ages? Man? Did the Earth survive? What caused them? Oh yeah, nature.
'and I doubt the currents wouls stop. "

Actually, I'm not really sure what caused the last ice age but the science is pretty straight forward that a new Ice age could start, beginning with the melting of the greenland ice sheet.


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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3001636 - 08/13/04 06:05 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)



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