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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Xlea321]
    #3008254 - 08/16/04 08:19 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

How concrete does the evidence have to be before we think about doing something? If we cut pollution now even if we're wrong the earth isn't going to suffer.




You're preaching to the choir my man, I never said that we shouldn't cut down on pollution (but it's funny how you keep bringing it up). This conversation is moving from it's topic of Global warming to pollution control. I'm all for cutting down pollution which has nothing to do with global warming but my preference towards swimming in clean water.

Quote:

"The evidence isn't 100% concrete enough for me yet" we keep on fucking the planet and then in 50 years when it's way too late to do anything about we go "Oh fuck, we are causing it after all".





see above. I still don't like to be like chicken little. You may, but I don't.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Source]
    #3008257 - 08/16/04 08:21 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Actually, I'm not really sure what caused the last ice age but the science is pretty straight forward that a new Ice age could start, beginning with the melting of the greenland ice sheet.




are you implying that it will be a natural occurance or a man made problem?


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineTao
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3008710 - 08/16/04 01:21 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Best summing up of the situation:

http://yosemite.epa.gov/oar/globalwarming.nsf/content/climateuncertainties.html

[Conclusion of article:]
"...Living with Uncertainty
Like many pioneer fields of research, the current state of global warming science can't always provide definitive answers to our questions. There is certainty that human activities are rapidly adding greenhouse gases to the atmosphere, and that these gases tend to warm our planet. This is the basis for concern about global warming.

The fundamental scientific uncertainties are these: How much more warming will occur? How fast will this warming occur? And what are the potential adverse and beneficial effects? These uncertainties will be with us for some time, perhaps decades.

Global warming poses real risks. The exact nature of these risks remains uncertain. Ultimately, this is why we have to use our best judgement ? guided by the current state of science ? to determine what the most appropriate response to global warming should be."


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Tao]
    #3008794 - 08/16/04 01:52 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Like many pioneer fields of research, the current state of global warming science can't always provide definitive answers to our questions. There is certainty that human activities are rapidly adding greenhouse gases to the atmosphere, and that these gases tend to warm our planet.




wow, he contradicts himself in the very first sentence. If science can't provide definite answers (which is debateable) why does he in fact say that human activities are rapidly adding greenhouse gases to the atmosphere, and that these gases tend to warm our planet as a matter of fact? It is apparant that there is no definite evidence and all I had to do was play devil's advocate. it's a big guess at best. I respect those that want to make the planet cleaner, however I don't like them using global warming as a scare tactic (echo in here?).

It seems sorta funny that many here have said that the planet is not actually warming but cooling at the same time as these scientists they quote say the opposite. Temperature has only been measured for the last hundred to a couple hundred years (give or take a few) but everyone seems to think that they have enough data that they can predict and analize the weather which has been changing for about 4-5 billion years (that would be an analysis of .0000000044% of the total data) You do realize that the temperatures that scientist say about the past are educated estimates (I would guess to the nearest couple of degees (i could be wrong about the exact estimate).

Quote:

The fundamental scientific uncertainties are these: How much more warming will occur? How fast will this warming occur? And what are the potential adverse and beneficial effects? These uncertainties will be with us for some time, perhaps decades.




My questions would be: Are we in fact warming at all? I'd want proof. Is this warming a natural occurance if it is in fact warming? How much warming can we take before there is a problem? Is the Earth cooling? If so why?

Quote:

Global warming poses real risks. The exact nature of these risks remains uncertain. Ultimately, this is why we have to use our best judgement ? guided by the current state of science ? to determine what the most appropriate response to global warming should be."




No, global warming is a scare tactic to get people to do something that they should be doing in the first place, not polluting.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineSource
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3008801 - 08/16/04 01:54 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

There seems to be evidence (not withstanding your correct concern that samples of CO2 may only be taken from one location on earth) that CO2 level began to increase dramatically at about the beginning of the industrial revolution reaching a level now not seen in hundreds of thousands of years. There also seems to be evidence that temperature follows the concentration of CO2 levels. Put the three together and it looks like the activities of man are responsible for global warming. Besides, do you think it is only coincidence that at the same time humans begin pumping large amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere, the global temperature begins to rise?

If you aren't already familiar with the possible scenario, it goes something like this: As the ice on Greenland melts http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3?img_id=15341 the fresh water is deposited into the northern atlantic in the area where normally brackish/highly salty water descends to the sea floor creating the north atlantic ocean current (gulf stream and canary current) which flows all the way south to the equator where the water is warmed up, rises and moves north again. This current brings as much warmth to western Europe as the sun directly.

As the fresh water mixes with the salty water in the north atlantic, the water will not sink as fast, slowing or possibly stopping the momentum of the current. Actually scientists have confirmed that the current is already slowing down

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,872590,00.html

This is the scenario that was played out in the movie 'Day After Tomorrow'. While climatologists generally agree that the scenario is very possible (if not already occuring) they dispute the rapidity of events portrayed in the movie (decades to ice age vs. days).

So...in a nutshell...yes I am saying humans could cause the next ice age, or at least a mini ice age.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Source]
    #3008887 - 08/16/04 02:21 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Besides, do you think it is only coincidence that at the same time humans begin pumping large amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere, the global temperature begins to rise?




Wait a minute, some here have in fact said that global warming isn't in fact a warming of the globe...i'm confused now. I haven't seen evidence that we are in fact warming up. Is there actual proof that we are? And if so could this increase be from, hell I don't know, the Sun?

The average temperature has risen and fell within this century, what's to say that this wasn't just a natural occurrence?

Quote:

As the fresh water mixes with the salty water in the north Atlantic, the water will not sink as fast, slowing or possibly stopping the momentum of the current. Actually scientists have confirmed that the current is already slowing down




I'm not debating wether or not this could happen if we warmed or cooled off, I'm on the side that says this is a natural occurrence.

Quote:

This is the scenario that was played out in the movie 'Day After Tomorrow'. While climatologists generally agree that the scenario is very possible (if not already occurring) they dispute the rapidity of events portrayed in the movie (decades to ice age vs. days).




Funny you should bring a fictional movie in to this, especially this one. A few weeks ago this was a topic of some show I was watching and MANY scientists said this scenario was NOT possible. They did qualify it by saying it would take a long, long time but all at once is not realistic.


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OfflineTao
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3008896 - 08/16/04 02:24 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Inny, your lack of reading comprehension and willingness to read the link i provided (its a very small faq and answered some of the very questions you went on to pose) is giving me a headache.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Tao]
    #3008931 - 08/16/04 02:36 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

wow, making it personal already. Nice job. It isn't my fault many of you just believe anything you hear. I've made MANY valid points and many haven't bothered to answer or discuss them, with the exception of Source. It's also funny how the conversation keeps switching to polluting and my supposed denial of it happening and not Global warming (or whatever you want to call it). Feel frre to keep your headache out of the conversation if you can't make a valid point.

Face it, you're just guessing.


--------------------

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Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

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OfflineTao
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3009010 - 08/16/04 03:04 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Quote:

Like many pioneer fields of research, the current state of global warming science can't always provide definitive answers to our questions. There is certainty that human activities are rapidly adding greenhouse gases to the atmosphere, and that these gases tend to warm our planet.




wow, he contradicts himself in the very first sentence. If science can't provide definite answers (which is debateable) why does he in fact say that human activities are rapidly adding greenhouse gases to the atmosphere, and that these gases tend to warm our planet as a matter of fact?




okay, now read what he wrote: "science can't always provide definitive answers" and then read how you quoted him: "science can't provide definite answers". notice a significant word you left out there when quoting him? what's that you say? its no longer a contradiction but a perfectly reasonable statement?

Quote:


It is apparant that there is no definite evidence



try reading the link instead of just the snippet i quoted. the earth overall is warming. thats definite.


Quote:

it's a big guess at best.




its a little more than a guess:
1) the earth is warming (fact)
2) there is a historical correlation between carbon molecules percentage in the atmosphere and global temperature as well as a scientific model explaining why this would be the case (greenhouse gases trap the heat)
3) The percentage of carbon molecules in the atmosphere has drastically risen since the beginning of the industrial revolution (fact).

Though this is not enough to make scientific certainty, I believe it is enough (and so do most countries judging from the Kyoto protocol) to warrant action based upon the precautionary principle in face of such potentially drastic results.

Oh and to your earlier comment about fact vs. theory? you know what else is 'just a theory'? EVOLUTION.

Quote:

I don't like them using global warming as a scare tactic (echo in here?).



yes there is an echo in here, you keep repeating this accusation though it is not true. many scientists have said that they would sincerely like to believe that global warming is not happening, that it is not true, but they are forced to accept the reality of it. the science field generally has conservative leanings not liberal. read the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Control (IPCC) findings--it is comprehensive of the findings of 99.9% of all climatologists on Earth. They concluded that there is a "discernible human influence" on climate meaning that the observed global warming is unlikely to be the result of natural variability alone and that human activities are at least partially responsible.
Quote:


It seems sorta funny that many here have said that the planet is not actually warming but cooling at the same time as these scientists they quote say the opposite.




christ do you still not understand this concept? The more accurate and more commonly used term in the scientific community instead of 'global warming' is "climate change" because that is the real concern--climates drastically changing and some experiencing increased extreme weather patterns. some areas will warm and some areas will cool. Overall the globe will warm. comprende?

Quote:

Temperature has only been measured for the last hundred to a couple hundred years (give or take a few)



no, they use glacial records and other geological measurement methods as well.






Quote:

My questions would be: Are we in fact warming at all?



yes, that is no longer a question in the CC debate.

Quote:

Is this warming a natural occurance if it is in fact warming?



IPCC says there is discernable impact by humans.

Quote:

How much warming can we take before there is a problem?



Carbon molecules stay in the atmosphere for 100 years. should we really risk it?

The questions that remain in the debate are:

1)How much of an impact are humans having?

2) How severe will the consequences of climate change be?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Tao]
    #3009060 - 08/16/04 03:27 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Well, I guess this debate won't go away, even though it has nothing to do with politics, activism, or law, so I'll pitch in a few facts myself.

First of all, it is most definitely not established that the earth is warming. Two out of three of the sources of actual measurements as opposed to inferences show no warming -- balloon data and satellite data from 1979 on. That's a quarter century of data, folks. The third kind of measurement -- surface measurements -- show warming in some areas and cooling in others, as has already been noted here.

Secondly, the ICPP does not represent 99.9% of all climatologists on earth. Note even close.

Next, Innvertigo is correct when he says that actual temperature measurements have been made only for the last hundred years or so. The glacial data are not measurements but instead are extrapolations and inferences. If these inferences are off by even tenths of a degree it is significant.

Finally, there is an increasing amount of data showing that to a large extent the problem of CO2 fluctuation may be self-regulating. There have been a number of studies showing that in the areas of the Earth's surface where local temperatures have increased, so has vegetative growth. The more photsynthesizing material there is in a region, the more CO2 gets drawn from the air through plant respiration. For this to make a significant difference, of course, it is necessary to leave that growth there and not just clear cut it. On the other hand, the greatest source of CO2 absorption (and O2 release) is the blue green algae in the Earth's oceans. One can't clearcut algae very easily.

pinky


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Tao]
    #3009188 - 08/16/04 03:53 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Figuring out to what extent the human-induced accumulation of greenhouse gases since pre-industrial times is responsible for the global warming trend is not easy. This is because other factors, both natural and human, affect our planet's temperature. Scientific understanding of these other factors ? most notably natural climatic variations, changes in the sun's energy, and the cooling effects of pollutant aerosols ? remains incomplete.

You mean there's a chance this could all be natural?

As atmospheric levels of greenhouse gases continue to rise, scientists estimate average global temperatures will continue to rise as a result. By how much and how fast remain uncertain. IPCC projects further global warming of 2.2-10?F (1.4-5.8?C) by the year 2100. This range results from uncertainties in greenhouse gas emissions, the possible cooling effects of atmospheric particles such as sulfates, and the climate's response to changes in the atmosphere.

I guess I missed the part about the temperature actually rising.

I could reply to your links if you'd like but they still don't answer my question. Is the Earth actually cooling or heating up? and is it possible that it is natural?

Quote:

1) the earth is warming (fact)




fact and fiction, the earth heats and cools. During the early portion of this century the climate warmed and during the 70's and 80's it cooled.



It looks from this graph that it heats and cools in a pattern of sorts.

Quote:

2) there is a historical correlation between carbon molecules percentage in the atmosphere and global temperature as well as a scientific model explaining why this would be the case (greenhouse gases trap the heat)





noone's disputing that that one area had these readings and this conclusion had been made, i'm asking whether or not these readings are natural? I mean noone here has answered the question as to what caused the peak temperature spikes in the past.

Quote:

3) The percentage of carbon molecules in the atmosphere has drastically risen since the beginning of the industrial revolution (fact).




and still the temperature has risen and fallen, why?

Quote:

I believe it is enough (and so do most countries judging from the Kyoto protocol)




54 countries have ratified, but none of which are major developed countries

Quote:

Oh and to your earlier comment about fact vs. theory? you know what else is 'just a theory'? EVOLUTION.





your point?

Quote:

yes there is an echo in here, you keep repeating this accusation though it is not true. many scientists have said that they would sincerely like to believe that global warming is not happening




what a coincedence, there are many scientists who agree that there is no global warming.

Quote:

christ do you still not understand this concept?




I understand what you're saying but you people are talking out of both sides of your mouth. The scientists tend to say the world is increasing in temperature. Am I wrong?

Quote:

The more accurate and more commonly used term in the scientific community instead of 'global warming' is "climate change" because that is the real concern




so global warming is in fact not happening then? In fact it's just climate change. Ok, got it. I suppose if you keep changing the meaning eventually you'll be right no matter how insignificant that discovery may be.

I hate to question your wisdom but doesn't climate change happen naturaly?

Quote:

climates drastically changing and some experiencing increased extreme weather patterns. some areas will warm and some areas will cool. Overall the globe will warm. comprende?




What would happen to countries like Africa if they cooled because of a natural climate change? Sounds good to me.

Quote:

no, they use glacial records and other geological measurement methods as well.




really? so they're able to get accurate temperature readings 10,000 years ago to the degree? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt (for sake of discussion) but that still doesn't explain the natural fluctuations of the heating and cooling of the Earth. I wonder why the temperature increased from the 10th to the 15th century? Must be industries fault...wait a minute.....

Your's Truly,

Devils Advocate


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (08/16/04 04:19 PM)


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OfflineTao
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3009284 - 08/16/04 04:18 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)





http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/slides/05.02.htm

edit: fucked up the thread by trying to make the image big enough. follow the link to get a bigger image.


Edited by TaoTeChing (08/16/04 04:37 PM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Tao]
    #3009307 - 08/16/04 04:22 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

weathermen and scientists have a hard time predicting tommarrow's weather, what makes you think they'll be able to tell you what it will be in 10 years from now, let alone 100?

Future data means nothing when there's no data to compare it to.


--------------------

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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineTao
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3009375 - 08/16/04 04:33 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Wait a sec, first you were saying that the data didn't go back long enough, then you and pinky are using a study since 1979 that only used one method of measurement (satellite)??


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OfflineSource
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3009390 - 08/16/04 04:36 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

"Funny you should bring a fictional movie in to this, especially this one. A few weeks ago this was a topic of some show I was watching and MANY scientists said this scenario was NOT possible. They did qualify it by saying it would take a long, long time but all at once is not realistic."

Hmmm, that link I posted,

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,872590,00.html

says,

"This deep water convection in the north Atlantic has already been noted to be slowing down by British scientists, and US scientists say the trend could profoundly impact global ocean circulation and climate. "In other studies, changes in the north Atlantic circulation have been implicated in starting and stopping northern hemisphere ice ages," Mr Serreze said."

So at least according to some, not only is it possible, it is actually happening now.

Well, I don't personally believe there is any doubt that the earth is warming. Just look at the glaciers that are disappearing. These things are ANCIENT and thier melting very quickly. Have you seen old pictures of glacier bay and compared them to pictures today?

So, I guess the only remaining question is...are humans to blame?

I think the information out there is purposely muddied...you can find any information to back up whatever it is you WANT to believe (both ways). It may not be possible for us to get any clear 'yes or no'...although I remember reading an article that said both the U.S. and U.K. head climatologists had said human activity is to blame.

Anyway...at this point it probably does't matter.


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3009638 - 08/16/04 05:23 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Innvertigo,
You might have answered this one, but...
What if it turns out your right and global warming is just a scare tactic (I'm an environmental geology major and I, along with every staff member in my department believes it's happening, but.. whatever)? If it's just overblown... For starters, why do you think it's being used as a scare tactic? Second, so what? We're still helping the environment in other ways by trying to limit our oil drilling. Still reducing our dependance on Arab oil. Still advancing technology. Still preparing for a time when oil is gonna simply become too expensive to use (definitely in the next six decades). So what's the harm in worrying about global warming, even if it does turn out to be wrong?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Gijith]
    #3009718 - 08/16/04 05:43 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

What if it turns out your right and global warming is just a scare tactic




No need for what if's, it is what it is.

Quote:

(I'm an environmental geology major and I, along with every staff member in my department believes it's happening, but.. whatever)?




that sounds interesting, really. Now answer this: Explain to me the reason the earth warmed in the past when there were no industries and does the earth warm and cool naturally?

Are you basing the evidence of 150 some years (I believe I read that temperature has been recorded since about 1860's (it's somewhere in that century)) of data where only about 35 or so has been accuratly measured globally. The Earth is 4.5 billion years old and according to many studies that have been done the earth has flucuated from a lot warmer to a lot colder.

Quote:

If it's just overblown... For starters, why do you think it's being used as a scare tactic? Second, so what?




the problem is that I don't like to be lied to, i'm a grown man, give me your reasons or don't tell me anything at all. Some politicians push their agenda through using these kinds of tactics, you may think it's ok, but I don't.

Quote:

We're still helping the environment in other ways by trying to limit our oil drilling.




Our oil "drilling" is not polluting the earth.

Quote:

Still reducing our dependance on Arab oil.




What's the difference between dependance of Arab oil and dependence of Mexican oil? We're mearly shifting our dependence.

Quote:

Still advancing technology. Still preparing for a time when oil is gonna simply become too expensive to use (definitely in the next six decades)




This has nothing to do with global warming as I have said numerous times. I'm all for alternative fuel supplies and can't wait for the day we no longer need oil and can rely on solar, hydro and natural gas only. But masking these projects behind the fictitious "global warming" scare only hurts the validity of the alternatives.

Quote:

So what's the harm in worrying about global warming, even if it does turn out to be wrong?




I tend not to like worrying about things that aren't there. Why not just push the environmental agenda by stating that we should all pollute less and prosecute industries that don't follow EPA standards? I just don't believe that the sky is falling. That doesn't mean I throw my oil in the water release CFC's into the sky and drop my bottles and cans in the rivers. On the contrary, I love the environment and support our local DNR whenever I can.


--------------------

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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3010210 - 08/16/04 08:03 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
No need for what if's, it is what it is.




:wink:

Quote:

Now answer this:  Explain to me the reason the earth warmed in the past when there were no industries and does the earth warm and cool naturally?




That I can do.
The reason for the Earth's biggest shifts in climate over time actually have nothing to do with what goes on here on the planet. It's astronomical. There are changes and patterns in the tilt of the Earth's axis, precession of the equinoxes, eccentricity of it's orbit. These kinda things that happen inside the solar system were used by a guy named Milankovitch to explain ancient climate change. And  he was dead on. When you take the sum of all of these curves and then plot it over climate change over the past billion years, it's near perfect (I know there's a good graphic of this somewhere in one of my books. I'll find it). There are also variations that happen on a galactic level that could,in theory, affect climate. I don't know too much about these, but from what I've read, their changes takes place over such a huge amount of time, that it doesn't really concern us. There's also a solar cycle of sun spots every eleven years or so. But these have almost no effect.
Now, as far as shit that happens on Earth. The biggest local reason is  variation in ocean circulation. This is hard to explain without writing a whole paper, but here's the idea: the oceans have always found a way to form a worldwide flow of water that heats and cools certain regions. The flow that's going on right now is referred to as a conveyor belt and is heated and cooled by seasons, jet stream, etc. When major changes are made to certain parts of the conveyor belt, particularly the section in the Northern Atlantic, the whole world climate tends to drastically change (info on this is the first thing someone should look up before they get into debates on global warming). There's also processes called Orogeny and Epeirogeny that have the ability to change climate. Orogeny basically has to do with mountains on the Earths surface and how they affect internal mantle currents (the higher the mountain, the deeper the crust). Epeirogeny just has to do with continent formation and loaction, which just ties into the oceans currents thing. And finally, greenhouse gases... But we've all been over them.
Hope that at least answered part of your question. Please followup if  you need more info.

Quote:

the problem is that I don't like to be lied to, i'm a grown man, give me your reasons or don't tell me anything at all.  Some politicians push their agenda through using these kinds of tactics, you may think it's ok, but I don't.




Fair enough. But if such politicians don't actually believe in global warming, what do you think the alterior motive? What do you think is the actually agenda?


Quote:

Our oil "drilling" is not polluting the earth.




I was just thinking about Alaska when I mentioned that. Maybe there's other examples. I don't know.

Quote:

What's the difference between dependance of Arab oil and dependence of Mexican oil?  We're mearly shifting our dependence.




Shit I don't wanna shift dependence. I just want less.

Quote:

This has nothing to do with global warming as I have said numerous times.  I'm all for alternative fuel supplies and can't wait for the day we no longer need oil and can rely on solar, hydro and natural gas only.  But masking these projects behind the fictitious "global warming" scare only hurts the validity of the alternatives.




Understood

Quote:

I tend not to like worrying about things that aren't there.  Why not just push the environmental agenda by stating that we should all pollute less and prosecute industries that don't follow EPA standards?  I just don't believe that the sky is falling.  That doesn't mean I throw my oil in the water release CFC's into the sky and drop my bottles and cans in the rivers.  On the contrary, I love the environment and support our local DNR whenever I can.




I agree. It's sad that the last two presidents to push this, Nixon and Carter, are both viewed negatively in general.
:cheers:

edit: I'm sure this thread is getting real close to being shut down. pinkie, could you please be cool enough to just move it and not lock it? I wanna keep this going if possible.


Edited by Gijith (08/16/04 09:40 PM)


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
i'm left. youall can bite me
Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 1,591
Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: Gijith]
    #3010431 - 08/16/04 09:25 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Gijith said:
edit: I'm sure this thread is getting real close to being shut down. pinkie, could you please be cool enough to just move it and not lock it? I wanna keep this going if possible.




When did this become your thread Gijith? It's up to the mods but if it's gonna be either moved or locked I'd rather it just be locked. The other thread got a grand total of about 5 additional replies after it was moved to Science & Technology. If it's locked on this forum at least other people in the future have more chance of finding it.
I think this has been a good thread. I even like Invertigo's constant repetition of his 'arguments' cause it let everyone else explain the reality of global warming that much more thoroughly.


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy [Re: question_for_joo]
    #3010448 - 08/16/04 09:28 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

sorry man, didn't mean to imply anything. and you make a good point. it'd be good if people can find it.
:sorry:


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