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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria
    #1433599 - 04/06/03 04:09 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Although the following is essentially an article of a scientific nature, the subject has very great political implications...

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Middle Ages were warmer than today, say scientists
By Robert Matthews, Science Correspondent - The Spectator
(Filed: 06/04/2003)


Claims that man-made pollution is causing "unprecedented" global warming have been seriously undermined by new research which shows that the Earth was warmer during the Middle Ages.

From the outset of the global warming debate in the late 1980s, environmentalists have said that temperatures are rising higher and faster than ever before, leading some scientists to conclude that greenhouse gases from cars and power stations are causing these "record-breaking" global temperatures.

Last year, scientists working for the UK Climate Impacts Programme said that global temperatures were "the hottest since records began" and added: "We are pretty sure that climate change due to human activity is here and it's accelerating."

This announcement followed research published in 1998, when scientists at the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia declared that the 1990s had been hotter than any other period for 1,000 years.

Such claims have now been sharply contradicted by the most comprehensive study yet of global temperature over the past 1,000 years. A review of more than 240 scientific studies has shown that today's temperatures are neither the warmest over the past millennium, nor are they producing the most extreme weather - in stark contrast to the claims of the environmentalists.

The review, carried out by a team from Harvard University, examined the findings of studies of so-called "temperature proxies" such as tree rings, ice cores and historical accounts which allow scientists to estimate temperatures prevailing at sites around the world.

The findings prove that the world experienced a Medieval Warm Period between the ninth and 14th centuries with global temperatures significantly higher even than today.

They also confirm claims that a Little Ice Age set in around 1300, during which the world cooled dramatically. Since 1900, the world has begun to warm up again - but has still to reach the balmy temperatures of the Middle Ages.

The timing of the end of the Little Ice Age is especially significant, as it implies that the records used by climate scientists date from a time when the Earth was relatively cold, thereby exaggerating the significance of today's temperature rise.

According to the researchers, the evidence confirms suspicions that today's "unprecedented" temperatures are simply the result of examining temperature change over too short a period of time.

The study, about to be published in the journal Energy and Environment, has been welcomed by sceptics of global warming, who say it puts the claims of environmentalists in proper context. Until now, suggestions that the Middle Ages were as warm as the 21st century had been largely anecdotal and were often challenged by believers in man-made global warming.

Dr Philip Stott, the professor emeritus of bio-geography at the University of London, told The Telegraph: "What has been forgotten in all the discussion about global warming is a proper sense of history."

According to Prof Stott, the evidence also undermines doom-laden predictions about the effect of higher global temperatures. "During the Medieval Warm Period, the world was warmer even than today, and history shows that it was a wonderful period of plenty for everyone."

In contrast, said Prof Stott, severe famines and economic collapse followed the onset of the Little Ice Age around 1300. He said: "When the temperature started to drop, harvests failed and England's vine industry died. It makes one wonder why there is so much fear of warmth."

The United Nation's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), the official voice of global warming research, has conceded the possibility that today's "record-breaking" temperatures may be at least partly caused by the Earth recovering from a relatively cold period in recent history. While the evidence for entirely natural changes in the Earth's temperature continues to grow, its causes still remain mysterious.

Dr Simon Brown, the climate extremes research manager at the Meteorological Office at Bracknell, said that the present consensus among scientists on the IPCC was that the Medieval Warm Period could not be used to judge the significance of existing warming.

Dr Brown said: "The conclusion that 20th century warming is not unusual relies on the assertion that the Medieval Warm Period was a global phenomenon. This is not the conclusion of IPCC."

He added that there were also doubts about the reliability of temperature proxies such as tree rings: "They are not able to capture the recent warming of the last 50 years," he said.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineyelimS
bohem

Registered: 02/03/03
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Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Evolving]
    #1433609 - 04/06/03 04:14 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

that's nice, but it's still too damn polluted.


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Anonymous

Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Evolving]
    #1433615 - 04/06/03 04:16 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

OMG!!!!!!!!

Al Gore was right!!!!!!!!!!!!

[runs screaming around the forum]

[crashes into sides of browser]




There, I feel better now.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Evolving]
    #1434778 - 04/07/03 12:33 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Most people don't realize that "global warming" really doesn't mean "global warming". It should really be called "long term global climate change", or something like that.

Any decent scientist would tell you this: There is good evidence that this is ocurring, but there is still not enough data to prove anything.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Phluck]
    #1434829 - 04/07/03 12:53 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

How about periodic global climate fluctuations? There is good evidence that this occurs, any honest scientist will admit it.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Evolving]
    #1434847 - 04/07/03 12:57 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Pollution is bad for the environment. Humans are consuming all the natural resources and fossil fuels and there will be none left. Global warming is causing climate changes. USA is satan. The only thing that can save us is total worldwide thermonuclear war.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Registered: 06/25/02
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Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Evolving]
    #1434862 - 04/07/03 01:02 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I read an article last fall some time concerning this subject, in which it mentioned that yes, global temperatures have historically been known to fluctuate, but that over the last century-century and a half, the rate at which temperatures have been rising are not congruent to temperature increases in the past. I'll hunt around for it, see what I can find.


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1434886 - 04/07/03 01:11 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Pollution is bad for the environment.



I would tend to agree with that statement.  However, when yeast pollute their environment with waste products from their existence, it tends to help the creation of tasty beverages which have a concious altering effect. Not all pollution is bad. :wink:

Quote:

Humans are consuming all the natural resources and fossil fuels and there will be none left.



Humans do not consume all natural resources.  Even if they did, there is an inherent self correcting mechanism which will cause a change in human behavior.  It's call 'scarcity'.

Quote:

Global warming is causing climate changes.



Correction, 'Global warming is climate change.'

Quote:

USA is satan.



What ever happened to the socialist fantasy all the leftists want to raise our taxes for, 'USA is Santa?'

Quote:

The only thing that can save us is total worldwide thermonuclear war.



Perhaps your definition of 'save' is a l-i-t-t-l-e bit different than mine.   


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Evolving]
    #1434900 - 04/07/03 01:17 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Heh. I should've used the wink emoticon to show I was writing in jest. People get so crazed about the enviroment and sit in trees for a year at a time. On the other side are people that say pollution is fine and dandy and the world doesn't mind. Pollution is bad and IMO should be kept to a minimum.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1434918 - 04/07/03 01:21 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Pollution is bad and IMO should be kept to a minimum.

Unfortunately this damages corporate profit so I'm afraid we will simply have to put up with the rapidly melting polar ice caps.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Xlea321]
    #1434954 - 04/07/03 01:37 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Yes Alex, the sky IS falling.  Perhaps we can prop it up with some legislation?  I know, let's remove all profit motive from human endeavors.  We'll start with you, from now on you should accept no payment or any compensation for any work you do.  Don't be a hypocrite, everything you do from now on should be done gratis.  Lead by example, Ghandi did. :wink: 


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Evolving]
    #1434968 - 04/07/03 01:44 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

You can still make profit without destroying the planet.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Xlea321]
    #1434994 - 04/07/03 01:54 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Evolving, When I was in high school I worked for a photography company. We developed film, mostly 35mm. It was nice. One of the byproducts of our work was we produced a certain amount of slightly toxic waste. It contained a bit of mercury in it and a few other chemicals that you don't want to spill on you too much. We contracted with a company to dispose of it, but wehn we did heavy volume we produced a little too much for the metal waste holding tub thing to hold. It was somtimes my job to put the excess in a mop bucket, push it outside and dump it in the storm sewer. Heh. I always liked doing that for some reason. We made profit, but we would have made a little less if we had to get all the waste properly disposed of. I think this is the sort of thing Alex is trying to convey.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
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Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Xlea321]
    #1435011 - 04/07/03 02:06 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

yes.. I'm not an economist, BUT, if all companies and factories the world over agreed to minimize pollution, then wouldn't economies stay more or less the same, relatively? I mean, isn't that what economy is about? Rich relative to poor? I suppose there are some countries who would have to make far fewer changes than other countries because their industries are less reliant on churning out pollutants.. But is that really unfair? Isn't it just called good business sense? And if it's not, and is luck, then I'd point out that luck is part of business.

I'm opposed to "pollution" in general because of my perhaps arbitrarily decided principles, but I do believe that there are practical reasons not to churn out crap. Nobody would argue that cities smell good, for example. I think cars are murderous death machines and I find it weird that people accept deaths by car but freak about heroine overdoses. I also think it's hippocritical to ban smoking in so many places but allow cars to spew shit so close to the sidewalk.

But back to practical things.. The concept of global warming or actually, climate change, because I don't believe global warming is a complete description, makes sense to me. I mean, if you alter the make-up of the atmospheric gases, I'm afraid SOMETHING's going to happen. The holes in the ozone is an example. There's something we can't dispute. It's going to fucking suck when we all have to go outside in our special radiation suits on sunny days.

But maybe somebody well-versed in global economics could explain whether or not economies would be crippled by ratifying Kyoto.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Dogomush]
    #1435018 - 04/07/03 02:11 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

But maybe somebody well-versed in global economics could explain whether or not economies would be crippled by ratifying Kyoto.



Kyoto didn't apply to "developing nations". It only applied to us first world countries. It would have been very bad for US industry already struggeling against competitors in "developing" countries.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1435034 - 04/07/03 02:22 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

RG, I understand your point but from my experience I don't think this was quite the thing Alex was trying to convey. His usual rhetoric involves a vehement opposition to free enterprise and lacks the reasonableness of your interpretation.

I would like to see a little less hysteria and a little more rational thought on the matter. My opinion is that no one in his right mind wants to pollute or destroy the life giving properties of the earth. However, short sightedness and unsound thinking abound in human affairs. Many people latch onto the most dire environmental scenarios with a religious fervor that precludes all rational thought on the matter, they never stop to think that perhaps things aren't as they are scared into believing. A couple decades ago environmental pollution was said to be leading us to a new ice age and the environmentalists latched onto that scare with the same uncritical faith that it is exhibited by current crop of true believers who's shrill voices are heard in defense of the global warming 'theory.'

Now if you'll excuse me, this greedy capitalist is going to piss in his drinking water and shit in the crock pot full of food that his wife has prepared for tomorrow's supper...


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Evolving]
    #1435053 - 04/07/03 02:33 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

This temperature stuff is a little fuzzy. Why always the talk of temperature? I mean it has relevance but what about the hard analysis of the apmosphere?

The CO2 levels are rising. That is indisputable. We are somewhere around 370-390 ppm now, as opposed to 310 ppm 100 years ago.

Does that mean anything?


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Dogomush]
    #1435061 - 04/07/03 02:38 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The holes in the ozone is an example. There's something we can't dispute.



How is ozone created in the upper atmosphere?

What is the half life of ozone?

Taking the answers to the first two questions into consideration, what would one reasonably expect to happed to the ozone layer over certain parts of the globe at certain times of the year?

Can you name a major company who's patent expired on freon (but had replacement chemicals ready for market - with no market for them because freon was widely used and about to be produced by other companies without having to pay royalties) at about the same time the idea of a 'hole' in the ozone layer first became publicized?

Just some food for thought...


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
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Registered: 07/18/02
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Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Evolving]
    #1435063 - 04/07/03 02:39 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

"Many people latch onto the most dire environmental scenarios with a religious fervor that precludes all rational thought on the matter, they never stop to think that perhaps things aren't as they are scared into believing. "

I think the same applies to many of the topics in this forum.

coughconspiracycough


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1435072 - 04/07/03 02:46 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The CO2 levels are rising. That is indisputable. We are somewhere around 370-390 ppm now, as opposed to 310 ppm 100 years ago.

Does that mean anything?



It's a good time to be a gardener? Increased crop yields? The CO2 levels 100 years ago were abnormally low by earth history standards, but they might be going back up to normal? I don't know. What are your scientifically verifiable conclusions? Is it possible that this might actually be a good thing?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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