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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3054368 -

no


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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3056835 -

I think you misunderstood the question Luv although as Zappa pointed out it was poorly formualted the first time round. What I was actually asking you was:

Is there ever a time when it is wrong to not help someone in need?

Whaddya reckon?


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3056836 -

Quote:
You guys get Seinfeld in Britain? Support the Good-Samaritan Law?



Yeah we do get Seinfeld but Im not a big fan. Whats the good samaritan law?


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3056896 -

Quote:
Is there ever a time when it is wrong to not help someone in need?


EVER for an individual? Yes.

Is it always right? No.

And it is never right for the federal government to do so.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3057152 -

So you are saying that morally people should be expected to help those in need in some circumstances? What sort of circumstances are we talking about here?


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3058564 -

No, that's not what I said.

No-one should be EXPECTED to help.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that's what I said. Perhaps it's one of those instances where because I wrote it, I know what I mean and so when I read the sentences it's clear to me. If you'll point out where your reading came from perhaps I can clear it up.

In the meantime..... it is NEVER right to force someone to help.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3059325 -

Quote:
No, that's not what I said.



Really?

I asked: "Is there ever a time when it is wrong to not help someone in need?"

to which you answered: "EVER for an individual? Yes."

Which implies that your moral code suggests that in some circumstances people should be expected to help others. I dont see how your statements can be construed any other way.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3059406 -

I don't understand how you see it that way. I don't expect anybody to do anything to help others. If for no other reason than human nature. Doesn't make it right, but that's how it goes.

I help because I want to, not because someone expects me to.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3059436 -

So you dont think it is ever wrong not to help people?


Make your bloody mind up!


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3059464 -

So you dont think it is ever wrong not to help people?

you should ask he thinks it's wrong to force person A to help person B.

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: ]
    #3059484 -

Thanks but Im asking the questions.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: Zahid]
    #3059496 -

Zahid said:
The last time someone begged from me, I did offer them to buy them a McDeal meal at McDonald's... he kept insisting that I give him the money himself to go buy the food, I told him 'Don't worry about it, I'll buy you a meal.".. eventually he started bitching that it was an isult to buy him a meal, accusing me of being racist and suspecting him of being a gutter drunk... at that point I turned around and told him "Forget it". No food was bought that night. I don't give charity to street people anymore, only organized charities to make up for my Zakat.


I had a guy ask me for some spare change so he could buy a bus ticket to go to his family. I offered to take him to the bus station (just a block away) and buy him the ticket. He refused this offer.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3059504 -

GazzBut said:
Is there ever a time when it is wrong to not provide help to someone in need?



I would have to say that I do believe that it is wrong to not help those in need when you can, but it is always wrong to force people to help others.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3060678 -

Thanks but Im asking the questions.

:grin:

Nice one Gazz.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: ]
    #3061141 -

mushmaster said:
So you dont think it is ever wrong not to help people?

you should ask he thinks it's wrong to force person A to help person B.


I've already said that. Both in this thread and others. I think he's just being deliberately obtuse.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3061142 -

GazzBut said:
So you dont think it is ever wrong not to help people?


Make your bloody mind up!

Stop confusing morality with legality.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3061331 -

I dont see how I am confusing the two.

So when do you think it is morally wrong to not provide help to someone...is it really that hard for you to answer??!


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3061370 -

Thanks but Im asking the questions.

that's fine, but the question doesn't address what the state should and should not do.

i could ask, "so you do think it's ever wrong to spend an entire day on the couch eating potato chips?" and it would have about as much relevence to politics and the role of the state as your question does.

is it ever wrong to refuse to assist other people? sometimes. if you have made a consensual agreement to do so, then yes. if they are your children, yes. short of that, there is no moral obligation, especially not an enforcable one, to assist other people.

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3061437 -

ESCAPING ARAB FAILURE

By RALPH PETERS


April 23, 2004 -- WE shouldn't be discouraged by the recent round of violence in Iraq. It was predictable. But there were two disheartening signs:
* We should be troubled that, in this bloody month, none of the insurgents waved an alternative constitution - unless we count their perversion of the Koran. None of those violent men is fighting for freedom - they're fighting to strangle liberty in the cradle. They are, without exception, forces of reaction, not liberation, no matter how madly al-Jazeera twists the facts.

* Nor did the general Arab population or its leaders take a public stand against those who would renew their oppression. And those who will not defend their own freedom do not deserve to be defended by others.

Operation Iraqi Freedom has been, among other things, an attempt to give Arabs hope for a better future. The ultimate outcome won't be known for years, but we must prepare ourselves for the possibility that the Arabs are going to fail themselves again.

With sufficient troops, we can force Iraq's Arabs to behave. But we can't force them to succeed.

Ultimately, Iraq is not a test of the limits of American power. When necessary, we can do whatever must be done for our security and prosperity. Our use of force, in Iraq and elsewhere, has been remarkably - even foolishly - restrained.

If Iraq collapses into medieval fantasies and blood feuds, we still may be proud of having given this crippled civilization a last, great chance to heal itself. We've made mistakes, but their impact is minor compared to the unwillingness of Iraq's Arabs, Sunni or Shi'a, to build a free and civil society of their own.


In the United States, campus-generated political correctness was never more than a joke - capable of turning somber conservatives purple but unable to alter anything that matters. The far more dangerous form of political correctness is that which prevails in the dream-world of diplomacy: We pretend that all civilizations have equal merit.

But they don't. It's time to face up to the functional and moral collapse of the Arab world - if we can't describe the problem honestly, we shall never deal with it effectively.

Arab civilization has failed.

Disguised in part by the trappings of oil wealth, the Middle East has become humanity's sinkhole, less promising, if richer, than Africa. But no facade of garish hotels in the hollow states that line the Persian Gulf, and no amount of full-page advertisements funded by the Saudi government, can hide the truth any longer: The Arab Middle East has become the world's first entirely parasitical culture; all it does is to imitate poorly, consume voraciously, spit hatred, export death and create nothing.

Arab civilization offers its people no promising future, only rhetoric about a past whose achievements have been as exaggerated as they were impermanent. The present is a bloody, heartless muddle.

For all the oil wealth and expatriate university degrees, for all the hired-in expertise and Western "engagement," Arab civilization has degenerated to a point where it provides the rest of humanity nothing useful of its own design - while offering its own citizens only a culture of blame, corruption and lethargy.

It's a matter of culture, not race. In the free atmosphere of America, Arabs do as well as anyone else. All populations have their share of talent - but the oppressive environment of the Middle East enervates those individuals it does not crush entirely.

Iraq has been given a chance to break free of the thrall of a bankrupt culture, to establish a rule-of-law democratic government observant of human rights. But the chances are increasingly good that Iraq's Arabs will fail to achieve and maintain even minimal standards of good governance.

The time has not yet come, but, contrary to the sort of diplomatic wisdom that so long protected Saddam, we can walk away if Iraq's Arabs refuse to help themselves. And we can break up the country to protect the Kurds - a far better solution than turning Iraq over to the venal brokers of the United Nations.

The failure of Arab civilization in our time is the greatest such disaster in mankind's history. And, bitter though we find the proposition, the failure is so colossal that it cannot be neatly contained. Whether in Iraq today or elsewhere tomorrow, we cannot fully extract ourselves from this problem simply because our enemies won't let go.

If Iraq chooses failure, we can leave. But we'll be back, somewhere in the Middle East. Because, as we saw on 9/11, the Middle East will continue to come to us. Blame is the opium of the Arabs, and the sweetest blame for their failures is that directed at the United States (and, of course, Israel). It is our power itself, not its uses, that enrages Arabs trapped in their self-made weakness.

The oft-cited examples of the Arab world's problems, from a lack of interest in secular education and a poor work ethic to staggering corruption and the oppression of women, are symptoms, not root causes, of Arab failure. Past a certain analytical point, we come up against the wall of our own taboos - we cannot admit that the psychological premises of an entire civilization might be dysfunctional. Arab failure isn't about that which has been done to the Middle East, but that which the Middle East has done to itself.

Iraq still has a chance, if a slimmer one than we had hoped. But even if Iraq's Arabs disappoint our ambitions, our efforts will have been worthy and our losses not in vain. Intervention was unavoidable, whatever the critics say. Continued passivity in the face of the Middle East's implosion would only have made the price higher in the end.

We all would be better off were the Arabs to surprise us by building healthy, prosperous, modern societies. We would be foolish not to wish them well. But we would be equally foolish not to prepare ourselves for the consequences of their accelerating failure.

Ralph Peters is the author of "Beyond Baghdad: Postmodern War and Peace."


http://www.nypost.com/seven/04232004/postopinion/opedcolumnists/19362.htm

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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: ]
    #3061508 -

I think it is relevant. I find it amusing that "libertarians" think it is ok to not contribute a single penny to welfare systems thereby forcing a larger burden onto those who morally feel they should contribute to help the less fortunate in society. However, when questioned it seems that most of you agree that it is wrong, in some circumstances, not to provide help to others.

I just dont see the logic in a system which allows greedy people to avoid contributing to the society they live in, thereby forcing others to pay more.


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Always Smi2le

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