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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
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Heard it all before!!
    #3049907 - 08/25/04 08:33 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

If we exist in a system that cannot exist without some of its parcipitants having to live below the breadline, then morally should we not be required, at the very least, to pay some form of tax(welfare) to those who have to serve the purpose of the underclass.

(Perhaps it seems more intelligent to abandon the above system in favour of one which is able to distribute resources more effectively/equally amongst the participants of any such system)


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3049945 - 08/25/04 08:40 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

In my opinion, yes and yes.

Your second comment suggests communism  :blush:  which I think would be a great idea if it could be put into practise.  I think it actually could on small scales ("states" or communities of several thousand people, maybe).  People say it can't work, but what's been shown is that it didn't work.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3050034 - 08/25/04 09:06 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
If we exist in a system that cannot exist without some of its parcipitants having to live below the breadline, then morally should we not be required, at the very least, to pay some form of tax(welfare) to those who have to serve the purpose of the underclass.



No. The system may require that some people live below the poverty level(though I'm not entirely convinced that it does), but that doesn't mean I owe anything to someone for them not to work. The system requires an upper-middle class too, so I guess you should be paying me too.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: silversoul7]
    #3050104 - 08/25/04 09:25 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The system may require that some people live below the poverty level




Then waht kmind of shit no brained system is that?????

Quote:

but that doesn't mean I owe anything to someone for them not to work





Who said it does? Can you show me a system where everyone is
GUARANTEED to be able to work?


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3050393 - 08/25/04 10:26 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
If we exist in a system that cannot exist without some of its parcipitants having to live below the breadline



How exactly did you come to that conclusion? Some people will not be as well off as others, but I fail to see how people living "below the breadline" is in any way necessary. Please give me some evidence of this.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3050403 - 08/25/04 10:27 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

GazzBut writes:

If we exist in a system that cannot exist without some of its parcipitants having to live below the breadline...

What system might that be? You certainly can't be referring to Capitalism, so maybe you mean the current mixed-economy quasi-collectivist politico-economic system in place in the "free" world?

...then morally should we not be required, at the very least, to pay some form of tax(welfare) to those who have to serve the purpose of the underclass.

No. If it ever became the case that the system under which we lived required people to exist at a below-subsistence level, then morally it would be correct to change the system to one which didn't require such a precondition -- i.e. to change to a system of minimal forceful interference and maximal individual freedom.

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3050409 - 08/25/04 10:29 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

The system may require that some people live below the poverty level




Then waht kmind of shit no brained system is that?????



:wtf:  Please wait until you sober up before replying to any of my posts.

Quote:

Quote:

but that doesn't mean I owe anything to someone for them not to work 





Who said it does? Can you show me a system where everyone is
GUARANTEED to be able to work?



No, but work would certainly be easier to find in a Laissez-Faire Capitalist economy.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: Phred]
    #3050414 - 08/25/04 10:30 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Heeee.

You know he didn't mean required in its strictest sense :p


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: deafpanda]
    #3050421 - 08/25/04 10:32 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Actually, no I don't know that. Words have meaning.

pinky


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OfflineMilkyMedia
Lost Soul

Registered: 06/11/03
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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3050465 - 08/25/04 10:39 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

We are all Proles!


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OfflineGazzBut
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Registered: 10/15/02
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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: silversoul7]
    #3051856 - 08/26/04 04:26 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Please wait until you sober up before replying to any of my posts.




Little uptight perhaps?

Anyway Im completely sober now and I repeat: waht kmind of shit no brained system is that?????

Dont dodge the question again.

Quote:

No, but work would certainly be easier to find in a Laissez-Faire Capitalist economy.




Bold assertions with no proof do not impress anyone but the weakminded.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: Phred]
    #3051904 - 08/26/04 04:50 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

What system might that be?




The system we exist in, obviously.

As for laissez-faire capitalism not needing this necessity I would say that is highly debatable. Although as it is fairly easy to make wild claims for a system that has never been put into practice I wont be getting involved in any debate with you on the subject.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3052087 - 08/26/04 06:35 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

What system might that be?




The system we exist in, obviously.



I would really like to know how you came to that conclusion. Got anything to back up your claims?


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: z@z.com]
    #3052091 - 08/26/04 06:43 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

What claims do you want me to backup?


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3052133 - 08/26/04 07:33 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

GazzBut answers:

The system we exist in, obviously.

Ah. So by this you refer to the mixed-economy quasi-collectivist politico-economic system currently in place in the so-called "free" world, i.e. the UK, North America, Japan, and Western Europe.

Your stated position regarding this current system is that it "cannot exist without some of its parcipitants having to live below the breadline".

Would you care to back up that assertion?

pinky


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OfflineGazzBut
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Registered: 10/15/02
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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: Phred]
    #3052172 - 08/26/04 08:01 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

not really, I also dont feel like proving that much of the time the sky is blue.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: Phred]
    #3052990 - 08/26/04 12:54 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

"Well let me tell you...You don't pay your taxes, you work for slips of paper the first user got for nothing, you are out bid in the market place by the people who get for nothing what you MUST labor for, and your country - love it or leave it, has surrendered its sovereignty long ago! Surrendered ? Sold it out, and you and yours and all they produce with it!....

Consider too what the FRB of Philadelphia writes in their publication - THE NATIONAL DEBT, page 8: "The Federal Government, with the cooperation of the Federal Reserve, has the inherent power to create money -- almost any amount of it. This power makes technical bankruptcy out of the question.".

Do you want to know why they stole our gold and silver coin?

So they could get us to quit using the money we produced and instead get us dependant upon the money they create! "Money" with the force of law; "Money" you only have IF your banker says you do! We don't need a government to tell us to accept silver or gold in coin form...but when it comes to bank confetti???

Currency backing isn't relevant in today's economy. Currency cannot be "redeemed" or exchanged for Treasury gold or any other asset used as backing. The question of just what assets "back" Federal Reserve notes has little but bookkeeping significance.".

SO WHAT, you say, doesn't this system work?

When you have the exclusive power to create money, that the slaves of the world must labor for and surrender all that we produce for, you get some unique opportunities the rest of us don't. You don't need to do anything for profit why work for a profit when you can create money?

What if consumption, powered by unlimited money creation, out strips production? In a fantasy world of using nothing as money, consumption could easily exceed 100%, yet with everyone producing, production in the real world could never exceed 100%!

That's the rub! You can't have a plantation wherein the slaves consume all they produce, for then the masters don't get their fair share, nor can they reward their accomplices with anything.

Even though there is no payments mechanism left, for again, how do you PAY or get PAID with debt instruments, there must be a way of regulating the slaves consumption...The illusions of taxes is one effective way of balancing the ratio of consumption to production - Tax the stuff away from them and they will have less to bid in the market place...DEATH has the added bonus of eliminating CONSUMERS! You know - FEWER PEOPLE!

Remeber what the FRB of Philadelphia said: "The Federal Government, with the cooperation of the Federal Reserve, has the inherent power to create money -- almost any amount of it...".

Why doesn't the Federal Government and the Fed, or your government and central bank, create all the money they need to feed starving people, stamp out poverty, care for the aged and pre/new born???

Answer: "If there were FEWER PEOPLE..." their BANK CREDIT would better keep its value, all of us in the dark, and all of us humming slave songs as we went off to work.

There are two ways to conquer a people - militarily and economically.

It is hard to hide military occupation and the jack boot tactics. But, economically, wherein all the victims think they are free, wherein not one in a million can diagnose the slavery...A REAL WINNER!

And all you have to do is regulate consumption and kill consumers!

No government on the face of the earth uses anything as money, all are conquered economically and all citizens are enslaved to the creators of credit. Truly, we are all citizens of the world, and all embrace a unified, world government run by the bankers and their ilk."
(kaiowas)

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...part=2&vc=1

And check this out:
gold
(thanks to mushmaster for that interesting link)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: GazzBut]
    #3053168 - 08/26/04 01:39 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

Please wait until you sober up before replying to any of my posts.




Little uptight perhaps?

Anyway Im completely sober now and I repeat: waht kmind of shit no brained system is that?????

Dont dodge the question again.



Nope, not uptight. It's just that your question didn't make any sense. I was referring to the same system that you were.

Quote:

Quote:

No, but work would certainly be easier to find in a Laissez-Faire Capitalist economy.




Bold assertions with no proof do not impress anyone but the weakminded.



It's no secret that having a lower minimum wage and fewer business regulations tend to lead to higher rates of employment. Care to dispute this?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: silversoul7]
    #3053214 - 08/26/04 01:50 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Is there ever a good time to help the needy?


--------------------


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
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Re: Heard it all before!! [Re: Zahid]
    #3053230 - 08/26/04 01:53 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
Is there ever a good time to help the needy?



So long as you're not being forced to do it at gunpoint, it's always a good time to help the needy.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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