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Offlinerogue_pixie
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Existence
    #3017326 - 08/18/04 10:17 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

is subjective isn't it. I dunno why I bother.


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Offlinea_Mind_at_Large
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Re: Existence [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #3017720 - 08/18/04 12:23 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

....it often seems that way. But subjectivity allows you to pick and chose the subject through which your existence is viewed. If we figure out how to take advantage of that we may one day be able to experience actual peace....maybe.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Existence [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #3017758 - 08/18/04 12:30 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

If you think its all in your head then watch somebody die and watch the world continue.

Their entire subjective world just stopped but things kept going for YOU. If you dare to reverse the situation, I could watch YOU die and things would keep going.

This implies some kind of objectivity IMO, although it can always be argued because like Plato would say "how do you know you're really even HERE right now?" or "how do you know everything you ever experience isn't totally manufactured by your brain?"


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OfflinePedM
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Re: Existence [Re: Strumpling]
    #3018102 - 08/18/04 01:58 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

>> Their entire subjective world just stopped but things kept going for YOU. If you dare to reverse the situation, I could watch YOU die and things would keep going. This implies some kind of objectivity IMO.

For this to be true we have to assume that our own experience of reality and the experience of reality which discontinued upon the other person's death are identical. Since it is not true that any two person's experience of reality are identical, we cannot decide upon reality's objectivity simply by observing that things go on when any one of us ceases.

If we brace for some kind of shift in our own experience upon observing another person's death, we have demonstrated the assumption that we are each mutually involved in creating a collective experience of reality, as though each person is making their own personal contribution to the way an outer reality is shaped. This is not different from the idea that a reality unfolds entirely independent of a concious presence: both are founded on the assumption that our experience comes from outside, from a place that is seperate and totally distinct from what is within us. To suggest that things should be any different for us upon the cessation of another individual indicates the prior assumption that reality has at least some objective quality. We cannot support the idea that reality has objective characteristics with suggestions founded upon the very same idea. That is circular reasoning.

If we truly discard the "reality comes from outside" idea and operate on the notion that our experience of "reality" originates entirely from within, we can look at the situation of another person's death differently. We would be able to understand that they were part of our dream, and we were part of their dream, and apart from that there is only emptiness.


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Existence [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #3022295 - 08/19/04 08:15 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

i dont know i think existence is objective, but thats just my subjective opinion...you can believe we are all just a computer simulation, a dream, "real" whatever...but the fact remains you are here. The subjectivity only seems to come into play when you try to describe the mode of existence, really the "i think there for i am" statement is dead on in my subjective opinion, if u didnt exist in some state/mode/way then u couldnt question your existence.

Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Existence [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #3024666 - 08/19/04 07:30 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I also think existence is one of the most objective things, ever. Even subjectivity is objective, because it exists.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinerogue_pixie
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Re: Existence [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #3024671 - 08/19/04 07:31 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

that's your subjective opinion


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Existence [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #3024685 - 08/19/04 07:33 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

No, because it exists the same for everyone. The subjectivity depends on what everybody will do with this 'opinion'


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinerogue_pixie
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Re: Existence [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #3024702 - 08/19/04 07:37 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

How do you know it exists the same for everyone? It could all be an illusion in your head.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Existence [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #3024715 - 08/19/04 07:40 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

At the moment, I write it here, it starts to exist for everyone (in the same way, as I have written it). If the opinion itself is an illusion or not is irrelevant. Just the existance of this opinion is objective.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinerogue_pixie
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Re: Existence [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #3024742 - 08/19/04 07:46 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

In your subjective opinion yep.


--------------------
'It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.' ~ J. Krishnamurti


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Existence [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #3024801 - 08/19/04 07:57 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

"No, because it exists the same for everyone."

I see what you mean but it can always be argued.

How do you know that ANY of us exist? How do you know that everything you experience, all the pain and all the joy, isn't just simulated by your personal existence. Your "energy" could be the only objective thing, and the rest of this is a game created by your energy.

Plato used to have a lot of fun with these kinds of things. He would ask people "how do you know you're even here right now?" or "how do I know you really exist?"


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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InvisibleClean
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Re: Existence [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #3024856 - 08/19/04 08:09 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Two monks were arguing about a flag. One said: "The flag is moving."

The other said: "The wind is moving."

The Sixth Patriarch Hui Neng happened to be passing by. He told them: "Not the wind, not the flag; mind is moving.


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Offlinefredthetree
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Re: Existence [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #3027564 - 08/20/04 09:59 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

when my youngest sister was very young, just able to speak understandably:

"what do you mean 'before me'?"
(trying to explain something that happened before she was born)

Yeah, I guess existance is subjective..


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Existence [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #3027962 - 08/20/04 11:46 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

How can existence be subjective when you must exist to question it? If u dont exist, then u cant believe u dont exist. But i guess it is possible to firmly believe u dont exist (ignoring the logic) and if that is the case then existence would be subjective. So is there absolute truth...something that is true/right even when its not believed by everyone/anyone? is anyone ever really wrong? or are both the ideas of Objectivity and subjectivity flawed and the truth is something different, or somehow inbetween.


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OfflinePedM
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Re: Existence [Re: ZenGecko]
    #3029849 - 08/20/04 08:49 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Objectivity and subjectivity are opposite extremes and are therefore not absolutes in any circumstance. They are certainly not accurate labels to apply to anything. You see, if there were nothing subjective in the universe, then there would be no subject to assign objectivity to anything. Without objectivity, the concept of subjectivity does not even make sense. So it is precisely because we have the extraordinary talent to behave as subjects that we are able to conceive of objectivity, and it is because objectivity has been conceived that it is absolutely real. Subjectivity is complementary to objectivity, objectivity complementary to subjectivity.

In exactly the same way, the mind and the reality engaged by mind are opposite extremes and are therefore not accurate representations of how things really are. You see, we have this impression that mind and reality are like Lego blocks: although they may at present be interlocked, we think that they can also be seperated and continue on existing without eachother. It is customary to believe that mind and reality are two unique entities involved in a temporary relationship with eachother. But how can that be so? It does not take much analysis to rule out that possibility entirely.

Imagine for a moment that all living beings in the universe suddenly vanished. The universe has become completely void of sentience, of any perceiving objects (although this in itself seems impossible because "perceiving object" can be an identifying trait applied to just about anything, because it can be said that any object which reacts to changes in it's environment (plants, stars, asteroids) is a perceiving object). Upon such an abrupt cessation, what is the universe? Of course, the universe is now just an empty vacuum filled with dust and rocky debris, right? Surely the universe needs no one to interact with it for it continue on with it's utterly pointless internal workings.

Now, let's operate in reverse for a moment. Imagine that some magnificent force caused the entire universe and everything within it to suddenly vanish, save for you yourself. Immediately we run into all kinds of problems. First of all, what of your being has also just vanished along with everything else in the universe? Surely your legs would have disappeared as well. Your legs are not you, because you can seperate your legs and continue on interacting with the universe. The same is true of your eyes, ears, nose, mouth, hands, arms, neck and torso. All of these have disappeared, because they are not you (a person can go on thinking and perceiving as just a head for several seconds, I'm told). In fact, if we attempt to continue this reduction, we can't really figure out where the universe once stopped and where you once began.

But let's just forget about that and suppose that whatever force so magnificent as to do away with the entire universe surely must have the power and intelligence to firmly distinguish between what is your mind, what is existence, what is not your mind, and what is not existence. Let's just assume that you have been totally seperated from the entire universe. Where are you now? No where? What are you perceiving? Nothingness? How can you perceive nothingness if there is absolutely nothing to perceive? After all, nothing must be something if you are perceiving it. If you are perceiving nothing, then that must be something that you are perceiving, because what you perceive is different from what is you, right? Before you can perceive something, there must be some way to distinguish it against something it is not. Since in this circumstance you are not nothing, the nothing you perceive must then be something. But that is impossible, because a magnificent force has just done away with everything. Except you.


--------------------


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Existence [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #3031690 - 08/21/04 07:46 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

If my nose bleeds, because I have ran in too many walls, I stop wondering about subjectivity.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Existence [Re: Ped]
    #3031760 - 08/21/04 08:48 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I believe that the concept of objectivity exists...but that doesnt mean that objectivity itself exists in a "real" way (atleast for us). One can concieve all manner of things...fairies, dragons whatever but that doesnt mean they exist beyond just being concepts, or statues or drawings in the case of the examples i just gave.

I dont think we will ever know for sure if there is true objectivety that exists beyond just the concept, an absolute truth of sorts, because this current mode of existence is limited, we are limited effectively by our inability to concieve reality as a whole, hell we cant even do it at any given moment. Barring the enlightenment moment perhaps, and while that moment may be pure, immediately after it is tainted by our subjective nature, an intrinsic part of this current mode of existence.

i do believe in objectivity though, an absolute truth, something that is right and true regardless if no one believes it...call it the word of god/will of the system whatever...because when the whole says this is how it is, thats the authority and you if u dont believe...well your just wrong..u might not believe it but thats the way it will be because god/the system says thats how it is. don't get me wrong though, the person still might not buy it, or be aware that they are wrong, and for all practical purposes their subjective experience will still be true (to them) the way a lie is just as good as true if its believed...but its still a lie in actuallity. Really there is no language to accurately describe what i mean because the truth is really a paradox (to us) but the truth is in there, we just cant concieve it, or accurately describe it.


Edited by ZenGecko (08/21/04 08:49 AM)


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OfflinePedM
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Re: Existence [Re: ZenGecko]
    #3032157 - 08/21/04 12:48 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

>> I believe that the concept of objectivity exists...but that doesnt mean that objectivity itself exists in a "real" way (atleast for us). One can concieve all manner of things...fairies, dragons whatever but that doesnt mean they exist beyond just being concepts, or statues or drawings in the case of the examples i just gave.

I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

It seems that we have our viewpoints on the subject and that will be how it has to remain.  :smile:


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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