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InvisiblePsyllyMe
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Objective Quality....an inquiry into values......
    #3009711 - 08/16/04 05:42 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Does it, or does it not exist........

I would hope that this thread kinda follows a book written by Robert M Pirsig.......

Rock on Pheadrus!


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InvisiblePsyllyMe
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Re: Objective Quality....an inquiry into values...... [Re: PsyllyMe]
    #3009766 - 08/16/04 05:59 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

let's set a parameter...it has nothing to do with fixin motorcyles

peace


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Onlinedeff
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Re: Objective Quality....an inquiry into values...... [Re: PsyllyMe]
    #3009858 - 08/16/04 06:27 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

The only objective existance is zero. In otherwords, nothing is objective.


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InvisiblePsyllyMe
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Re: Objective Quality....an inquiry into values...... [Re: deff]
    #3009887 - 08/16/04 06:35 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

let us assume that physical reality is objective...... for the sake of discussion.......I was hoping maybe one or two had read Pirsig's book........It drove him mad


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Onlinedeff
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Re: Objective Quality....an inquiry into values...... [Re: PsyllyMe]
    #3009922 - 08/16/04 06:44 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not implying nothing is objective as in objectivity is impossible. I mean it as it's face value, that nothing itself truly is objective. Only can the void of non-existance escape the limiting subjectivity of existence. For something to exist, it has to be perceived (not just by animals). As soon as something is perceived it is already subjective as it is dependant entriely upon the structure of the observer. Scale out on the universe until nothing escapes the quality, and you have nothing left outside to observe in, or to give existance to it. Hence, nothing is objective, things are subjective.


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InvisiblePsyllyMe
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Re: Objective Quality....an inquiry into values...... [Re: deff]
    #3009973 - 08/16/04 06:53 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I will agree.......yet the very concept of a God depends upon objective quality........so are all the peoples of the world wrong? was Pheadrus really insane?


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InvisiblePsyllyMe
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Re: Objective Quality....an inquiry into values...... [Re: PsyllyMe]
    #3010034 - 08/16/04 07:04 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

as the Hindus have their "tat tvam asi" .......there is a moment of pure quality where there is no subject and no object.....in a sense a moment of objective "quality"......hence the essence of "nothingness" that Budha loved

peace


Edited by PsyllyMe (08/16/04 07:56 PM)


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Objective Quality....an inquiry into values...... [Re: deff]
    #3010234 - 08/16/04 08:08 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

For something to exist, it has to be perceived (not just by animals).




Are you saying nothing existed until humans came along?


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InvisiblePsyllyMe
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Re: Objective Quality....an inquiry into values...... [Re: PsyllyMe]
    #3010840 - 08/16/04 11:01 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

has anyone read "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance"........


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Objective Quality....an inquiry into values...... [Re: PsyllyMe]
    #3010843 - 08/16/04 11:03 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

i have that book in reach, but have never read it.. is it worth it? I started it, but was told that the writer is very very bad at writing stories, but does a good job of everything else about it.


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Onlinedeff
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Re: Objective Quality....an inquiry into values...... [Re: vampirism]
    #3010875 - 08/16/04 11:12 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

No, I included humans with animals. I meant nothing can qualitatively exist without being percieved by something (animals, plants, ect.)


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OfflineNova

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Re: Objective Quality....an inquiry into values...... [Re: PsyllyMe]
    #3011767 - 08/17/04 02:54 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Ive read it. Heres something I thought of when trying to figure the answer. objective quality = order, subjective quality = chaos. I agree everyone has their own subjective that is different from person to person and if everyone focused only on subjectivity the world would be chaotic (people acting without thinking about others peoples perceptions, rape/theft). But this allows us to do very important things such as percieve the world and adapt. We also as humans cling and strive toward "God" or object quality that is "good" because its better for everyone. Then from order/chaos are many other taoist polaritys that you can clearly define as good or bad which confirms objective good/bad quality like love/hate courage/fear life/death. All things have polaritys but the beauty of life lies in the fragile balance that is somehow kept. Order is needed for existance whereas chaos is needed for evolution. Objectivity is impossible only because we cannot percieve on a "God" level, no one is perfect right? But we can percieve of a perfect being. Godlyness lies beyond our universe and like deff said subjectivity lies inside our universe. Even though deff rationaly proved that there is no objectivity... we still are drawn to an objective "good" out of selflessness or non subjective thinking because we need it in order for life to continue. Thats why enlightened people (Jesus, Buddha) are always objective thinkers, they think close to the level of God and teach compassion.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Objective Quality....an inquiry into values...... [Re: deff]
    #3011881 - 08/17/04 03:39 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I feel that there is an objective world but it is (at least CURRENTLY) impossible to discuss with others because as soon as you try to express or describe or label or ask about it or whatever, to anybody else OR yourself, you are adding a subjective slant to it whether you intend to or not. At that point, you are discusssing/contemplating subjective extrapolations of the objectivity that we experience.

Since everybody is different, my perceptions of "objective reality" are different from Bob's, which can make it seem like the objectivity isn't even there, but I believe it is - we're just all programmed a bit differently WITHIN it, which puts off the illusion that "it really is ALL in my head."

Not when you fall into a puddle.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Objective Quality....an inquiry into values...... [Re: deff]
    #3022940 - 08/19/04 12:58 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

:wtf: :eek: ?

Everybody sees, feels, hears, experiences a part of the objective reality and transforms it into subjectivity.
That doesn't make objective reality nonexistent. The opposite is true !


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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