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OfflineJesusChrist
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Registered: 02/19/04
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Bob Costas on Hip Hop Culture
    #2913137 - 07/21/04 07:24 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I am reading Bernard Goldberg's "Arrogance". It is his follow up to "Bias". He has an interview with Bob Costas, and here are a couple of quotes from Costas:

Costas: "Some black pundits as well as some members of the establishment press position it this way: Anyone who disapproves of Alan Iverson, even if they stipulate his positve qualities, is either racist or insufficiently sensitive to a young black man who is just "keepin' it real". To which I say, "Bullshit." Why are punks and gangsta poseurs more authentically black than those who carry themselves with dignity and respect? How warped and maybe even racist is that idea?"

Goldberg: "So what is that really about?"

Costas: "It's about political correctness and it's about race as a weapon...The truth of the matter is that many black pop culture figures today are such demeaning caricatures of black men that if they were invented by white racists, everyone, black and white, would call for their heads, and I would be first in line. You could hardly create more damining images of young black men, and in many cases their supplicant black women, than you can see and hear every day in hip hop videos and elsewhere."

I thought it was a strong point, and I wanted to share it with my kind friends at the Shroomery.

I wonder what you think of that thought. In an age desperate for racial reconcillition, the images put out from the black community are not very positive. It is an interesting notion; that even if the KKK themselves were trying to portray black people in a bad light, they couldn't possibly do a better job than the leaders of hip hop culture.

Just thought I would throw it out there. May God Bless Bill Cosby and his crusade.


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Tastes just like chicken


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Bob Costas on Hip Hop Culture [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2913153 - 07/21/04 07:29 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I agree, and it's unfortunate. But this black stereotype would not be so common if it didn't sell. There are some underground hip-hop artists who are trying to work against this image, but like I said, they're underground, not mainstream, and therefore aren't getting as much publicity.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineWorf
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Registered: 07/04/04
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Re: Bob Costas on Hip Hop Culture [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2913870 - 07/21/04 10:51 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

The only people leading the hip hop culture are those that profit from it. As long as people are buying that shit up its always going to exist.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Registered: 05/24/04
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Re: Bob Costas on Hip Hop Culture [Re: Worf]
    #2913946 - 07/21/04 11:22 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

this is dumb.

why exactly does "hip-hop culture" equate to "black culture"? most heads/bboys/breakers I know are asian and latino - look into the history of hiphop - it isnt racial; it's urban.

does rock music equate to caucasion culture? Um, no. does the typical demogogic, strungout, wreckless, sexist, and money-eyed rockstar represent the white race? Um, no - that's silly. Is rock music damaging to "white culture"? give me a break.

are all hiphop artists thugs? hell no. maybe if Bob Costas (why is he such an authority on hiphop culture anyways?) knew what he was talking about other than the few minutes he spent watching corporate MTV, he would have a different opinion. I bet he couldnt even name 3 hiphop records...


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Bob Costas on Hip Hop Culture [Re: Vvellum]
    #2914000 - 07/21/04 11:41 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I'd say the problem with "black culture" isnt music, it's poverty and poor education. Last time I checked, poor white people faced practically (not all - but damn close) the same problems that poor black people face....


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bob Costas on Hip Hop Culture [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2914026 - 07/21/04 11:52 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

This has to do with politics or activism or law exactly how?

This is a cultural or sociological issue, in my opinion. Tell me which forum you'd like to see this moved to and I'll send it there.

pinky


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OfflineGernBlanston
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Re: Bob Costas on Hip Hop Culture [Re: Phred]
    #2914215 - 07/22/04 12:49 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I personally think that Sociology is relevant to this forum in particular - but that's just me.


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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Bob Costas on Hip Hop Culture [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2914247 - 07/22/04 12:56 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I might would support changing the name of the forum to "Politics and Sociology".


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OfflineGernBlanston
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Re: Bob Costas on Hip Hop Culture [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2914302 - 07/22/04 01:12 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I like it. I hereby officially second the notion.


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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Bob Costas on Hip Hop Culture [Re: Phred]
    #2914516 - 07/22/04 02:17 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

... am I the only person that reads the damn bylines around here?

Come here to discuss politics, social change, security and legal issues

smells like social change to me...

sure, Bob Costas doesn't know shit about hip hop, but if you
get past that, really, he's speaking more to a side effect of
what Cosby cites as the main problems, that is lack of education
and poor parenting.

Granted, quality pop culture role models are few and far
between if you're looking for something more than bling
a mean jump shot or a few gold records, but I feel like the
demand that has given rise to the symptoms that Costas
is referring to stem from the deeper issues that Cosby is
addressing.

You learn values as you grow, but some values are equally
taught to you through your parents and family. If parents
aren't instiling the right values in their kids, then the kids
can only be expected to go so far on their own.

Love one another, help each other out, family and friends
are of the utmost importance, have pride and respect,
be honest, lift up the seat when you pee.

If your mom doesn't ingrain those things in your head, fiddy
cent sure as hell isn't going to do it.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
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Re: Bob Costas on Hip Hop Culture [Re: Phred]
    #2914554 - 07/22/04 02:30 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I didn't intend to offend anyone. When someone talks about political correctness, maybe you should focus a little more on the word political.

"Black issues", "African American issues", "Racial Reconciliation", whatever you want to call them are very prominent political issues in today's society. To deny that is to deny the dynamics of today's political landscape itself. I can't believe that I actually had to explain that to anyone on in July, 2004.

The particular book that I am reading is concerned with liberal media bias, and that itself is a political issue. These comments were made in the context of how the media portrays (and also does not portray) black Americans. I am calling bullshit. This is a political issue. It might not be your favorite, but if so get off my thread.

I myself am part of the black community. I live and work in the black community. The last census pegged my neighborhood at over 90% black. I see the problems, I know the politics, and I hear the gunshots on a daily basis. I closely follow the politics of the black community. There are probably not too many other conservatives that have the hands on experience where the rubber meets the road on black issues. I go to community meetings, I assist in community projects and I do what I can to involve myself. I may not be the end all and I will tell you out front I don't have all the answers, but don't try to silence my voice on these political issues. They are political issues.

Funny as it seems, one of the points of the book that I cited is how both the messenger and the message often get attacked for even broaching the subject in a meaningful way. I thought my post was honest, forthright, and not in any way mean spirited. Pinkshark comes along and tells me it isn't relevant to political discussion. Bio tells me it is dumb. Paradis tells me that my whole outlook on this is "void". I would respectfully disagree.

If you don't want to deal with the issue, move it to any forum that you fucking want. Maybe if I included an angle that George Bush wants to kill black children and feed their spleens to rich white people that work for Haliburton it would have been a popular thread.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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OfflineRedo
CTA

Registered: 04/13/04
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Re: Bob Costas on Hip Hop Culture [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2914584 - 07/22/04 02:37 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Way to set things straight Jesus :smile:. I know exactly what you are talking about as well, I worked in the middle of the 'ghetto' on the south side of Chicago. We had a brutal murder in broad daylight in front of our store, its a mess. And to think of what the hip-hop or rap artists of today are portraying of the lifestyle is nuts, it isnt real. They are creating a false image of the bad life being the way things are, what to expect when you get older.

And what is the solution? Hand outs, programs, blaming everybody but yourself. Not to say hand outs or programs are bad, but they are extremly abused. Its time for everybody to come together to solve this mess, it cannot be done only by legislation.


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InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: Bob Costas on Hip Hop Culture [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2914687 - 07/22/04 03:15 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I went a little further than just saying Costas was dumb...


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
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Re: Bob Costas on Hip Hop Culture [Re: Vvellum]
    #2914708 - 07/22/04 03:24 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I live in the black community Bio. You can tell me with all honesty that popular black culture doesn't have an influence on everyday black youth. You may really believe that. I am telling you point blank that you are wrong. The images in the media have an impact. I am surprised that this is even disputed. I guess it is all part of having an honest debate. I am all for getting to the heart of the matter.


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Tastes just like chicken


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Bob Costas on Hip Hop Culture [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2914782 - 07/22/04 04:15 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

dude, of course it has an influence. but get real - the influence of music is overshadowed by shit schools and lack of empowering jobs and the breakdown of the family structure.

your argument reminds of the arguments against heavy metal in the 80s..."oh, heavy metal devil music makes kids kill themselves..." nevermind their lack of friends, nevermind the parents are never home, never mind their untreated depression...it's the evil music!


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bob Costas on Hip Hop Culture [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2915160 - 07/22/04 10:05 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

JesusChrist writes:

I didn't intend to offend anyone.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I am not offended.

When someone talks about political correctness, maybe you should focus a little more on the word political.

The term "political correctness" as you well know, actually has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with euphemisms. I have noted ironically for years that the very phrase designed to describe convoluted euphemisms such as "sanitation consultant" is in itself a convoluted euphemism.

What is the political approach to the situation Costas describes? Should we campaign for the election of legislators who will ban the showing of Hip Hop videos or prevent them from being aired on the radio?

What is the activist approach to the situation? Should we initiate protests in the street in the hopes of getting MTV to stop showing these videos? Should we persuade youth to boycott the producers of Hip Hop music? Should we hand out leaflets to black mothers urging them to purge their childrens' Hip Hop collections?

What is the legal approach to the situation? Should we hire class action trial lawyers to sue the music industry for increasing the crime rate in the country?

Show me a tie in, why don't you?

It is true that the description of the forum mentions the discussion of social change, but the idea is that this social change can be accelerated, decelerated, initiated -- whatever -- through the use of politics, activism, or law.

The way your initial post was worded, I saw no tie in to politics, activism, or law. I saw a guy making a sociological (or philosophical, or spiritual) observation about what he perceives as the sorry state of black musical culture today. As it happens, I personally find Hip Hop music (regardless of who produces it -- thug or law-abiding citizen) to be both irritating and boring enough that I avoid listening to it whenever possible, so I'll have to rely on Costas's opinion that the lyrics and videos are as bad as he says they are. But even though I personally will walk out of a bar that plays hip hop I still can't see how Hip Hop can be eliminated (or even that it should be eliminated) through political action, legal action, or grass roots activism.

If enough people can post some intelligent points about the phenomenon, I have no objection to letting it stay here. However, you will undoubtedly get more (and possibly more thoughtful) analysis of the situation in the S&P forum than in this one.

Up to you.

pinky


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Bob Costas on Hip Hop Culture [Re: Phred]
    #2915398 - 07/22/04 12:00 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

"Love one another, help each other out, family and friends
are of the utmost importance, have pride and respect,
be honest, lift up the seat when you pee." - afoaf

ain't that what "keepin it real" meant in the early days of hip hop? Swopping gangland gunfights for break battles in parks? Listening and making music for love, not for MTV? Not getting sucked in by the bling and forgettin the soul in your music? Increasing the peace? Gaining self respect and behaving in a respectful manner?
Wasn't this the aim of pioneers like Afrika Bambataa with their movements such as Zulu Nation?

Now modern comercial rappers have turned the phrase on its head. There's so little consciousness in most hip-hop lyrics....
Sign of the times I guess.

Having said that to demonise the rappers and their influence on society is (I agree with bio) a copout. People don't have to follow their example, and in fact I wonder why people do? And how these rappers got to have these opinions? Is it because of their maltreatment and neglect by society? Change their scope of opportunity, and I'm sure their lyrics will change too. (Or pray individuals come along who like Bambaata think for themselves and set a higher agenda).

Hip hop is an important cornerstone of modern music. Like every genre there is good and there is bad material out there. Mostly I personally like the beats, but find the lyrics absolute pap. In no way do these lyrics end up turning me into a gangland murderer tho. Maybe I'm confident enough in myself feel no need to copy their behaviour to feel kool.

I'd rather keep it real.

"We had a brutal murder in broad daylight in front of our store, its a mess. And to think of what the hip-hop or rap artists of today are portraying of the lifestyle is nuts, it isnt real" - Redo
- Seen

"don't believe the hype!" - Public Enemy

*cjay puts iron maiden on the record deck and plays it backwards in order to soak up more of satan's charms*

Man i talk some shit! (I hope it's good shit tho)


Edited by CJay (07/22/04 12:19 PM)


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OfflineRedo
CTA

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Re: Bob Costas on Hip Hop Culture [Re: Vvellum]
    #2915539 - 07/22/04 12:39 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

People in these areas hardly have parenting, they listen to these agressive drug abusing musicians (if you can even call them that) all the time. They know every song word for word and express similar feelings.

It is a big part of the issue, but you guys are missing Jesus' point completly.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
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Re: Bob Costas on Hip Hop Culture [Re: Redo]
    #2915572 - 07/22/04 12:45 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Most of these artists do actually come from similar neighbourhoods as the kids they are influencing. So what makes the music, is it a reflection of life in the ghetto or is it simply a marketing tool? Maybe both.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Offlinecoralrives
Adventurer

Registered: 05/22/04
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Re: Bob Costas on Hip Hop Culture [Re: Vvellum]
    #2915626 - 07/22/04 01:04 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
I'd say the problem with "black culture" isnt music, it's poverty and poor education. Last time I checked, poor white people faced practically (not all - but damn close) the same problems that poor black people face....




I can't believe I'm actually saying this, but I actually agree with Bio here.  :grin: I'll take it a step further though.  Poor whites have it even harder than poor blacks, because of all the social programs in place for blacks, like scholarship quotas and afirmative action.  Oh, and Meth.  I know of no black man that messes with Meth!  Too smart I would think. :crazy2:


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"Be good and you will be lonesome."
Mark Twain


Grow Log




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