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OfflineLightningfractal
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Too many blacks in prison?
    #6442674 - 01/09/07 06:27 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

I'd like to get your points of view first.
Why are the (U.S.) state prisons like 90% black? Do you blame...
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from (01/09/07 06:26 PM) to (No end specified)
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll



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Offlinegregorio
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6442904 - 01/09/07 07:37 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

How many are in prison because they were found guilty of an "consensual" crime?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6442925 - 01/09/07 07:44 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

I believe the figure is closer to 60%, but in any case, I think the answer is complex. I don't want to excuse any violent offenders for their actions, but we must remember that much of the prison population is comprised of nonviolent drug offenders, and blacks comprise a majority of those offenders as well. So I would put a good deal of blame on the Drug War, and note some of the unjust discrepancies in the law, particularly the discrepancy in sentencing between cocaine and crack. I also think that the high percentage of them in prison becomes a self-perpetuating cycle, as incarceration has become a sort of rite of passage for people living in the ghetto. So to that extent, I think it's partly cultural. So on one level, the individuals have no one but themselves to blame. But on another level, the system creates those kinds of individuals. So my recommendation is that we end the Drug War and do what we can to alleviate poverty.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6442935 - 01/09/07 07:48 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

I blame the system.

There are so many actual criminals that you can fill the jails with just whites several times over, so it's selective law enforcement.


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Invisiblebuckwheat
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6442969 - 01/09/07 07:58 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

All you have to do is look at other countries where black people don't act like this to get an answer.Like say the Dominican Republic which was known for this.Now that drugs are appearing there the crime rate is rising.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: gregorio]
    #6442971 - 01/09/07 07:58 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

gregorio said:
How many are in prison because they were found guilty of an "consensual" crime?




It depends on how far you go to define "consensual". People that are in there for drug charges alone probably only comprise about 10%. The rest have drugs and robbery, drugs and murder, drugs and carjacking, drugs and gun possession. etc. etc. etc.

Of course, if drugs were legal they wouldn't have guns and steal things, but the question is not about drugs or consensual crime, it's about why is there a huge discrepancy in the color of the prison population.

What is the main variable which produces this phenomenon?

White people do drugs too.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Asante]
    #6442978 - 01/09/07 08:00 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
I blame the system.

There are so many actual criminals that you can fill the jails with just whites several times over, so it's selective law enforcement.




Why do blacks continue to make themselves so easy to select?


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Offlinegregorio
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6442985 - 01/09/07 08:03 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Lightningfractal said:


What is the main variable which produces this phenomenon?

White people do drugs too.




White people have better lawyers?

I will say this though---I do not think that this is proof of an inherently racist justice system or society.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: gregorio]
    #6443066 - 01/09/07 08:20 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

Oh they're being opressed. But I believe that it is their responsibility as human beings to resist.

Their style of resistance so far has produced dismal results at best, and yet they don't ever seem to try to improve upon their game.

That's why it's hard for an intelligent man to pity their plight.

I blame the black man for the black man's problems.


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OfflineArcofaJourney
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6443138 - 01/09/07 08:35 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
I blame the system.

There are so many actual criminals that you can fill the jails with just whites several times over, so it's selective law enforcement.




Why do blacks continue to make themselves so easy to select?




Because they happen to be where the cops are.

One of my best friends is black and he gets stopped and pulled over for the stupidest reasons. He was walking to the record store about a month ago through a white neighborhood and got put in the back of a police car and interrogated.

You have no idea what its like to be black so i don't think you should be making ignorant comments like asking why they make themselves easy to select. Anyone that knowingly commits a violent act should be in trouble, but if you don't realize that profiling is real your living in a dream world.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6443143 - 01/09/07 08:36 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

All of the above


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InvisibleBrainiac
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Redstorm]
    #6443216 - 01/09/07 08:47 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time :rolleyes:


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:Awesketch:

:cool: Fair is Fair :devil:


Edited by Brainiac (01/09/07 09:13 PM)


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: ArcofaJourney]
    #6443486 - 01/09/07 09:53 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

You have no idea what its like to be black so i don't think you should be making ignorant comments like asking why they make themselves easy to select.




How many times have you seen blacks selling drugs to strangers on shady street corners? How many white people do you know that stand around selling drugs to unknowns? Do they think the cops aren't going to round 'em up eventually? They make it super easy for the police to incarcerate them because as a whole they're being dumber than onions and playing right into the hands of their oppressors.

Don't get me wrong I don't hate them myself, I'm just critiquing their game and I'm calling Darwinism on them.

Quote:

if you don't realize that profiling is real your living in a dream world.




Again I know they're opressed, but I'm amazed in how they participate in their own destruction.


--------------------
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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6443703 - 01/09/07 11:02 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Yeah, it's rather hard to argue with an accurate assessment..

Anyone have any ideas why blacks seem to lack the ability to learn how to avoid a pitfall even when he sees countless other blacks enter the pitfall before him?

They just keep right on going into prison like sheep while white people take their business indoors, and I can't figure out why that is.

It's perplexing.


--------------------
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InvisibleCalifornia
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6443865 - 01/10/07 12:02 AM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Perhaps if this country were founded by black peoples that had white slaves for a time things would be different.
I really doubt it though.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6443914 - 01/10/07 12:33 AM (17 years, 21 days ago)

http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/dec95sklar.htm

Quote:

Three out of four drug users are White (non-Latino), but Blacks are much more likely to be arrested for drug offenses and receive longer sentences. As the Sentencing Project reports, Blacks constitute 13 percent of all past-month drug users, but 35 percent of arrests for drug possession, 55 percent of convictions, and 74 percent of prison sentences. Almost 90 percent of people sentenced to state prison for drug possession in 1992 were Black and Latino.




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OfflineArcofaJourney
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #6444159 - 01/10/07 03:55 AM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Ridiculous...of course i've seen whites on street corners dealing drugs.

The desperate do desperate things.


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6444361 - 01/10/07 07:23 AM (17 years, 21 days ago)

I couldn't reply to this poll because I believe it's a combination of the African American population itself and the System.

I don't see that poverty plays a roll in it, as several studies have shown that crime and economic performance aren't actually very stongly linked (It surprised me when I learned it too). For quick reference consider this: The greatest upswing in the "crack epidemic" actually occured during the economic boom of the 1980s. Even when more and more jobs were available, more and more gangs and individuals were going to jail for crack-related activities.

For further evidence that poverty doesn't play a roll we can look at the trends in incarceration of other impoverished populations. The incarceration rate for Hispanics, while still much higher than whites, is almost 1/3 of the incarceration rate of blacks. (source: http://www.ojp.usdoj(dot)gov/bjs/prisons.htm )

Clearly there is a problem with "the system". This is hard to quantify, but I think the numbers are extreme enough to suggest that "something" is wrong. As for what that "something" is, it's hard to say. Professor Levitt, the author of Freakonomics suggests in his writings that the African American community is, for whatever reason, more likely to engage in crack use than other populations, including hispanics. As a result the crack vs powder cocaine sentencing could play a huge roll in the discrepancy. Of course, Levitt also admits that much of the data comes from police sources, meaning that an extremely biased police force (not that there's direct proof of that either) could be skewing all of the data.

Personally, I'm inclined to believe Levitt (he's one of my favorite academics) so I'd support changing the powder vs. crack laws. If nothing else it could help us learn very quickly how biased the police force actually is.

I also believe that the African American community itself is to blame. Not the individuals, mind you, but the unfortunate self-described "leaders" of the community itself. It's pretty clear by now that individuals such as Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, while well intentioned (the latter more so than the former), don't actually have an approach to improving the situation that works. Indeed, their approach to the so-called "hip-hop" culture seems to prove this, as they were out of touch both during and after its emergence.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: ArcofaJourney]
    #6444420 - 01/10/07 07:49 AM (17 years, 21 days ago)

I bet your friend looked like he was up to something. By that I don't mean he looked black, though I'm sure that didn't help, but he knew he was a black man in a white neighborhood, and probably was looking around nervously.

Cops pick up on shit like that. They will actually try to make people flinch sometimes to see if they are nervous, and if you're nervous, then they think you must be up to something.

The one time I got busted I had a bag of weed on me and a few pipes (I was really sloppy, I must have just forgot marijuana was illegal or something. Anyway, I pull out onto the main road, and I see a cop just sitting there, waiting.

Here's where I made my first mistake. The instant I saw him I immediately made an "uh-oh" face, and started driving away from him nervously.

I might as well have just pulled my sack out of my pants and waved it at him, lol.



My marijuana sack, that is. Either one would have had the same effect, really.


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InvisibleHank, FTW
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6444478 - 01/10/07 08:15 AM (17 years, 21 days ago)

I live just outside of Toronto, where the murder rate is going through the roof. 90%+ of the convicted/suspect are black, as well as the victims. They are not being framed, and they are not being forced to shoot anyone imo.

While some of them have been dealt a shitty hand, they are doing fuck all to get out of it in a legit way. I was dealt a shitty hand, so did I start selling coke/crack and killing people? No, I shut up and went to my shitty job, and hoped for something better, which did finally come along. Of course, I am white, so I was born into privilege.  :rolleyes:

I voted for the black, because if I were to commit a crime, and be tossed in jail, it would be nobody's fault but MY OWN.


--------------------
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OfflineHashishi
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Hank, FTW]
    #6444627 - 01/10/07 09:31 AM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

What were some of the striking elements of your research?

There were two things that I found particularly striking. The first was the very high rates of incarceration among young black men, in particular if they haven’t been to college. When we actually calculated the estimates, we were finding that one in three black men now in their mid-30s had prison records, and that one in three black men who hadn’t been to college now had prison records; and if they had dropped out of high school the number was two in three. These were astonishingly high numbers and initially we thought we’d made mistakes in our calculations. We only have to go back 20 years to find a time when the penal system was not a pervasive presence in the lives of young black men.

The other surprising element involved reexamining labor market trends, particularly during the 1990s. The story about the 1990s was that economic growth and the labor market were so strong, particularly at the end of the 1990s, that the market was finally providing benefits to very marginal workers — young men with less than a college education — and their employment rates and wages were apparently increasing. All of these statistics, of course, don’t take into account the fact that a growing share of that population is increasingly in prison and doesn’t show up in any economic statistics. Once you take account of the growing numbers of poor young men in prison, you can see that black men obtained no real economic benefit at all from the economic expansion of the 1990s. This was a pretty surprising finding because there was a consensus that very strong economic growth could provide benefits to the furthest margins of the labor market.

What policy recommendations do you have for breaking the cycle of mass imprisonment?

We need to do at least two things. We need to re-examine our current approach to drug control policy. At the moment, incarceration is the presumptive sentence for drug offenders. I think we need to look at that and ask: Is this really the best way to spend our criminal justice dollars? Particularly in light of evidence that shows that many drug offenders really pose little risk of violent crime to the community. But changes in sentencing policy are not going to be enough. The fundamental problem is there is still no real functioning economy in poor urban neighborhoods of concentrated disadvantage. And as long as a shortage of jobs remains, as long as we have these very high rates of unemployment among young unskilled men, we’re still going to get very high rates of involvement of these young men in the criminal justice system. So I think ultimately we can’t avoid trying to solve the social problems that we’ve so far only tried to solve through criminal justice policy with social policy.




SOURCE


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6444875 - 01/10/07 11:15 AM (17 years, 21 days ago)

It's a combination of poverty and the system. Many cops are racist towards blacks based on their previous experiences, creating a self-perpetuating system, and therefore they're more likely to target blacks to pull them over or search them. Seeing as some blacks do tend to use a lot of drugs due to some of their subcultures (although I wouldn't blame the blacks or their subcultures, as these were created in response to the racism of the system that had been inherent for centuries) blacks will be more likely to be arrested just driving around because of the police selection process.

Then, when they are arrested, due to the fact that many urban schools and urban kids don't get a good education nowadays, they don't know their rights, and they probably don't have enough money to get a good lawyer. That is why there is so many blacks in prison. And after you put someone in prison, they're exposed to more crime, so instead of rehabilitation for people that actually need it, they just end up going out with a new perspective that supports crime. Our prisons never seem to reform anyone, so as we get new people into cells, we also get old prisoners returning time and time again.

So I chose "the system", as it is mostly the system's fault.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Economist]
    #6444900 - 01/10/07 11:22 AM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

I don't see that poverty plays a roll in it, as several studies have shown that crime and economic performance aren't actually very stongly linked (It surprised me when I learned it too). For quick reference consider this: The greatest upswing in the "crack epidemic" actually occured during the economic boom of the 1980s. Even when more and more jobs were available, more and more gangs and individuals were going to jail for crack-related activities.




Indeed, that is surprising, but it doesn't mean poverty isn't linked with the penal system. If two men, a middle-class, probably white male and a poor black male commit the same crime, which do you think will get a heavier sentence? The one who can buy a professional lawyer, or the one who gets a shitty public defender?

So even if crime and poverty aren't linked, there may still be a link between the enormous costs of the court system and serving longer sentences because of the inability to pay those costs.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineRoosterCogburn
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Ravus]
    #6444931 - 01/10/07 11:28 AM (17 years, 21 days ago)

There is certainly a racial element here... I look like a pretty straight white dude, and I have NO FEAR driving around with my stash. I use my one-hitter everyday, pass right by cops and don't blink an eye.

If I were a black dude, and happened to like hippityhop music and gold teeth, I would very likely NOT drive around with my weed. Even if I looked fairly straight, I'd be more paranoid.

EVERYONE does some shady shit, but the brothers fill the prisons... So something is obviously out of whack. If they stopped locking up simple drug offenders, things would proabably even out.

Economist, I think I read an article that said the newly Dem congress will be looking into the whole Crack/Coke laws, so you must be on target there.


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InvisibleBrainiac
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: RoosterCogburn]
    #6444966 - 01/10/07 11:35 AM (17 years, 21 days ago)

If they didn't do most of the crime, they won't be in prison.It's the system that  made them rob a bank.  :rolleyes:


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:cool: Fair is Fair :devil:


Edited by Brainiac (01/10/07 11:39 AM)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Brainiac]
    #6444974 - 01/10/07 11:37 AM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Brainiac said:
If they did do most of the crime, they won't be in prison. :rolleyes:




That doesn't make any sense.


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InvisibleBrainiac
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Redstorm]
    #6445006 - 01/10/07 11:42 AM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Its becoming a why of life in USA.That people always blame someone, something else for there own fuck-ups in life.


--------------------
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:cool: Fair is Fair :devil:


Edited by Brainiac (01/10/07 11:45 AM)


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InvisibleHank, FTW
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: RoosterCogburn]
    #6445011 - 01/10/07 11:43 AM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Forget simple drug (use) offenses. I would be interested in the stats of blacks raping, murdering, robbing, assaulting.


--------------------
Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

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OfflineRoosterCogburn
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Brainiac]
    #6445023 - 01/10/07 11:45 AM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Brainiac said:
In the USA people always blame someone, something else for there own fuck-ups in life.




The point you are missing is that we ALL fuck up sometime or another. But, being white and middle class, I GET AWAY WITH IT more often than a poor black guy.

Futhermore, even if they catch me, I can get a WAY better lawyer and get off with probation or less.


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: RoosterCogburn]
    #6445032 - 01/10/07 11:47 AM (17 years, 21 days ago)

They shouldn't do the crime, if they can't do the time :rolleyes: Like the duke rape case, we will never here any of the black leaders come out and say we're sorry and we where wrung.


Edited by Brainiac (01/10/07 11:53 AM)


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Brainiac]
    #6445510 - 01/10/07 02:28 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

I couldn't answer the poll because my answer wasn't one of the choices.

I think blacks constitute a larger percentage of the prison population because they commit more of the crime. They commit more of the crime because of the "black culture" in this country that accepts crime as an admirable (or at least excusable) activity for a black person who wants to get ahead. From the black-oriented discussions I've read, and the black-oriented programming I've seen (especially on MTV), I don't see blacks attaching as much of a negative social stigma to other blacks who commit crimes. A good example of this: when the congressional black caucus gave Jefferson a standing ovation. http://www.cnn.com/POLITICS/blogs/politicalticker/2007/01/congressional-black-caucus-gives.html

I hate making blanket statements like that because I know that there are plenty of good, upstanding black people. But I also hate seeing people give a standing ovation to someone under investigation for bribery just because he happens to be black and seems to have escaped the consequences of his actions.

But why is crime so acceptable in the black culture? I think it is because generations of government handouts that have made them less independent and sends the message that they aren't as capable as everybody else, combined with those who like to portray their race as downtrodden by society for their own personal gain. A couple examples are Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, but even the white politicians who are seeking the black vote are guilty of it as well.


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: pokermush]
    #6445525 - 01/10/07 02:33 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

pokermush said:
I couldn't answer the poll because my answer wasn't one of the choices.

I think blacks constitute a larger percentage of the prison population because they commit more of the crime. They commit more of the crime because of the "black culture" in this country that accepts crime as an admirable (or at least excusable) activity for a black person who wants to get ahead. From the black-oriented discussions I've read, and the black-oriented programming I've seen (especially on MTV), I don't see blacks attaching as much of a negative social stigma to other blacks who commit crimes. A good example of this: when the congressional black caucus gave Jefferson a standing ovation. http://www.cnn.com/POLITICS/blogs/politicalticker/2007/01/congressional-black-caucus-gives.html

I hate making blanket statements like that because I know that there are plenty of good, upstanding black people. But I also hate seeing people give a standing ovation to someone under investigation for bribery just because he happens to be black and seems to have escaped the consequences of his actions.

But why is crime so acceptable in the black culture? I think it is because generations of government handouts that have made them less independent and sends the message that they aren't as capable as everybody else, combined with those who like to portray their race as downtrodden by society for their own personal gain. A couple examples are Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, but even the white politicians who are seeking the black vote are guilty of it as well.




:congrats:


--------------------
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"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: pokermush]
    #6445559 - 01/10/07 02:41 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Yes, the black culture allows it. Which goes right back to my saying that their style of resistance is ineffective and impotent.

It's like they're saying as a race: "Let's get even with them by filling up their jails with our bodies!" Just doesn't cut it.

Hello Darwin?...


--------------------
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: pokermush]
    #6445639 - 01/10/07 03:07 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Oh, and those of you who "couldn't vote in the poll", please select the "STAL" option and vote so that you can view the current poll tally. That's what "STAL" is for.  :smile:


--------------------
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6446541 - 01/10/07 07:28 PM (17 years, 21 days ago)

Alright i'll go tell my black friends that get pulled over constantly FOR NOTHING to stop being so black.

i can not seriously believe some of the uneducated ideas on these boards. Living proof that enlightenment does not come from psychedelic drugs.

History books are out there.


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: ArcofaJourney]
    #6447051 - 01/10/07 10:04 PM (17 years, 20 days ago)

I can understand why you may feel like that, however this is an objective analysis. Nothing is being cut in stone here.

If you can explain why the black cannot after 20 years prevent the prisons from remaining 90% black then let us know please, we wanna know.

I have Darwin on the phone....


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Ravus]
    #6447089 - 01/10/07 10:16 PM (17 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Indeed, that is surprising, but it doesn't mean poverty isn't linked with the penal system. If two men, a middle-class, probably white male and a poor black male commit the same crime, which do you think will get a heavier sentence? The one who can buy a professional lawyer, or the one who gets a shitty public defender?

So even if crime and poverty aren't linked, there may still be a link between the enormous costs of the court system and serving longer sentences because of the inability to pay those costs.



This might be true, but the reality is that the numbers involved are so small that it couldn't possibly be the major answer to the question of why so many black people are incarcerated.

The fact of the matter is that there are more poor white people in America than there are poor black people. There might be a higher percentage of poor black people compared to the total population of black people, but because the white population is so large as a whole, the majority of the poor population is still white.

Taking numbers from the 2000 census (source: http://money.cnn.com/2004/08/26/news/economy/poverty_survey ) we can see that the poverty rate of blacks is twice that of whites. However, blacks make up somewhere slightly less than 15% of the total population while whites make up almost 80%. Simply put there are WAY more poor white people in America than poor black people.

Yet the incarceration rate of blacks and whites doesn't compare. If the answer to the question of blacks in prison really was poverty, then there should still be MORE whites in prison than blacks. As I've already pointed out above, the same can be said for the Hispanic population. They also have a much lower incarceration rate than blacks, despite a comparable poverty rate.


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Economist]
    #6447117 - 01/10/07 10:24 PM (17 years, 20 days ago)

And that's why the correct answer to the original poll is "the black", like it or not they are the only variable left that is constant.


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6447142 - 01/10/07 10:32 PM (17 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
And that's why the correct answer to the original poll is "the black", like it or not they are the only variable left that is constant.



I already pointed out above that there are variables not measured in this poll, such as the crack vs. powder cocaine laws, and the nature of policing strategies (as one example, black neighborhoods are more patrolled, so beat-cops witness more black crime).


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6447275 - 01/10/07 11:17 PM (17 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
And that's why the correct answer to the original poll is "the black", like it or not they are the only variable left that is constant.




Not really. The black subcultures may be part of it, but the system may be an even larger part after so many years of racism and legal superiority to the blacks encourages white police to (subconsciously or consciously) use race as a major criteria in enforcing the laws. Police and the entire system used to judge blacks are clearly constant, and also help to explain the comparison to Hispanics, who are much lighter and look much more like white people, therefore making them less vulnerable to our racist American system.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Economist]
    #6447303 - 01/10/07 11:31 PM (17 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
And that's why the correct answer to the original poll is "the black", like it or not they are the only variable left that is constant.



I already pointed out above that there are variables not measured in this poll, such as the crack vs. powder cocaine laws, and the nature of policing strategies (as one example, black neighborhoods are more patrolled, so beat-cops witness more black crime).




With all due respect... The crack vs cocaine discrepancy and the negro's failure to adjust to it accordingly just serve to illustrate my point here.

There's a reason why sending a police officer to a black neighborhood is cost effective. If you send a cop to my neighborhood he will just stand around and freeze his ass off, Send him to a black "hood" and yes, a black will soon present him with a view of a crime and he will arrest someone. Illustrating my point even further.


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OfflineArcofaJourney
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6447665 - 01/11/07 04:09 AM (17 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
I can understand why you may feel like that, however this is an objective analysis. Nothing is being cut in stone here.

If you can explain why the black cannot after 20 years prevent the prisons from remaining 90% black then let us know please, we wanna know.

I have Darwin on the phone....




i feel that way because i know and have witnessed the system work against the blacks. It's easy for you to look at a page of statistics and come to all kinds of race-based conclusions, but statistics never tell the full story. You don't seem to remember that the cultural and financial growth of the black culture in America was retarded since it's plantation on these soils and still is. i'm sure Darwin will tell you that when one species is dominated by another within a certain area, that the dominated species will struggle for centuries. You're not talking about something that can be changed in a generation or two.


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: ArcofaJourney]
    #6448374 - 01/11/07 10:52 AM (17 years, 20 days ago)

Unless you drop acid.


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Offlinepokermush
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: ArcofaJourney]
    #6448418 - 01/11/07 11:07 AM (17 years, 20 days ago)

So, can you explain why Jefferson received a standing ovation? People know that within the black community (or at least portions of it) crime is legitimized and often applauded. It is unfair that your black friends are pulled over without cause, but at least half of that blame lies within the black community that enthusiastically applaudes the return of a corrupt black politician.


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: pokermush]
    #6448447 - 01/11/07 11:15 AM (17 years, 20 days ago)

Of course, corrupt white politicians have never had standing ovations by their conservative supporters. That must a black thing.

:rolleyes:

It's not just black politics that are fucked, but all of the American political system. Have you ever read the polls on how many Americans still supported Nixon even after Watergate?


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Ravus]
    #6448503 - 01/11/07 11:35 AM (17 years, 20 days ago)

First of all, that's a red herring. We are specifically talking about about why there are more blacks in prison, and I posited that it is at least partly due to the element of black culture in America that doesn't think crime is wrong, and honors a black man who seems to get away with his crime. Your post contributed nothing to the discussion, other than to say "oh yeah, other politicians are corrupt too". OK, yes, other politicians are corrupt too. And when caught, they are dealt with harshly and looked down upon by most of their peers.

Second, Can you give me an example of a non-minority congressman or senator, within the past 10 years, who earned the esteem of his peers specifically for seeming to beat the rap of corruption? My point is it's a badge of honor for Jefferson, when it would be a mark of shame for a conservative white politician.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Ravus]
    #6448540 - 01/11/07 11:47 AM (17 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Have you ever read the polls on how many Americans still supported Nixon even after Watergate?




I'm sure this ignorance in America encourages the Bush entourage.


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: pokermush]
    #6448598 - 01/11/07 12:06 PM (17 years, 20 days ago)

It is clearly not a red herring, since you said:

Quote:

People know that within the black community (or at least portions of it) crime is legitimized and often applauded




Implying that the black community legitimizes crime in their politicians or other people more than the white community. Crime is legitimized among white businessmen, politicians and citizens everyday.

From what I've read of the Jefferson case, it seems that a lot of the voters don't trust the government or the agents who are trying to convict Jefferson and so deny the allegations are true, in spite of evidence to the contrary. If so, then this would be legitimate distrust of the government, which, after hundreds of years of racism and now even more examples like Hurricane Katrina, would be an entirely different reason for supporting Jefferson than simply because he's corrupt and hasn't been indicted, as you implied.

You have a point in that blacks do distrust the government much more than whites on average, due to past experiences, and so would not respond to allegations of corruption from the government as avidly as the white conservative community. This distrust of the government probably also makes blacks a higher priority for policing in the government's eyes, and makes blacks less likely to respect the laws, but it would still be the system of oppression that instilled this viewpoint into them in the first place.


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Ravus]
    #6448641 - 01/11/07 12:25 PM (17 years, 20 days ago)

The difference in the Jefferson case is that he was being applauded for beating the system (so far). The people giving him the standing ovation weren't the voters. And the only notable thing about Jefferson is the bribery scandal. So one can easily conclude that the standing ovation was applauding his "accomplishment" of getting caught taking bribes but getting re-elected anyway.

Even though there are corrupt people in every walk of life, and people around them who will look the other way, I don't see any other community that would consider what Jefferson did to be an honorable accomplishment.

I live in Utah. The black population here is very low. I don't know anybody who is racist against them, and all of the black people I know integrate just fine with everyone else. I think the difference is that there isn't a "black community" here to foster the racism and black stereotypes.


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Ravus]
    #6448685 - 01/11/07 12:50 PM (17 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Of course, corrupt white politicians have never had standing ovations by their conservative supporters. That must a black thing.

:rolleyes:

It's not just black politics that are fucked, but all of the American political system. Have you ever read the polls on how many Americans still supported Nixon even after Watergate?




Do not limit this to politicians.

Look to rap music, I listen to A LOT of it, and enjoy it(some probably didn't see that coming) and I can tell you first hand, there is a definite romanticizing of the "street life" which includes braking many serious laws. It is often boastful even.


--------------------
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Hank, FTW]
    #6448705 - 01/11/07 01:02 PM (17 years, 20 days ago)

How about, we ship them back to Africa.This would fix there being to many blacks in prisons.


Edited by Brainiac (01/11/07 01:03 PM)


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Brainiac]
    #6448879 - 01/11/07 01:52 PM (17 years, 20 days ago)

The US would still probably have the highest prisoner rate in the world. The government needs a scapegoat, so likely white drug users would just receive heavier sentences so that Christians can feel good about themselves, putting away those demonic marijuana smokers, cocaine users and mushroom eaters. If cops didn't have black people to focus most of their attention on, what would happen to the rest of us? We'd be getting pulled over much more often.


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Ravus]
    #6448978 - 01/11/07 02:11 PM (17 years, 20 days ago)

:glittershitz:

OK I get it.


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: pokermush]
    #6449048 - 01/11/07 02:25 PM (17 years, 20 days ago)

i agree Ravus. i think our efforts are a waste of time.


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Brainiac]
    #6450194 - 01/11/07 07:41 PM (17 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Brainiac said:
How about, we ship them back to Africa.This would fix there being to many blacks in prisons.




:rolleyes:

Considering they're Americans, not Africans, your point is moot


--------------------


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Hank, FTW]
    #6451312 - 01/12/07 06:18 AM (17 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Hank, FTW said:
Do not limit this to politicians.

Look to rap music, I listen to A LOT of it, and enjoy it(some probably didn't see that coming) and I can tell you first hand, there is a definite romanticizing of the "street life" which includes braking many serious laws. It is often boastful even.



By this same logic, Country Music, enjoyed mostly by white people, "romanticizes" drinking and driving, drinking while driving, violence as a solution to lovers' quarrels, and assault as an acceptable method of dispute resolution.

Yet we don't see skyrocketing white incarceration among country music listeners for any of those crimes, most of which carry 3 to 5 year prison terms.

I'm sorry but I just don't buy the rap-music argument.


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InvisibleHank, FTW
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Economist]
    #6451604 - 01/12/07 09:11 AM (17 years, 19 days ago)

There is a huge, huge, huge difference between drinking and driving, and shooting someone for "dissing you", or for wearing the wrong colour.

I would also like to hear the number of references to drinking and driving in country music, compared to violence in rap. Hell, I bet there are more references to drinking and driving in rap, than country music, I can think of a few off the top of my head.

Rap is all I have listened to for the past 10 years, and while younger I did some pretty fucked up shit, which I would definitely associate with the music I listened to. Of course in the end, I am the one who made the final decision, and I take responsibility/


--------------------
Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:


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Offlinepokermush
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Economist]
    #6452032 - 01/12/07 12:17 PM (17 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
By this same logic, Country Music, enjoyed mostly by white people, "romanticizes" drinking and driving, drinking while driving, violence as a solution to lovers' quarrels, and assault as an acceptable method of dispute resolution.

Yet we don't see skyrocketing white incarceration among country music listeners for any of those crimes, most of which carry 3 to 5 year prison terms.

I'm sorry but I just don't buy the rap-music argument.



That's actually a really good example.

20 or 30 years ago, drunk driving didn't carry much of a stigma. In fact, it was funny "Oh man you should have seen me last night! I was so shit faced I was all over the road!". Ha ha ha ha. It was used by comedians and in movies, and most people didn't frown upon it. One example that comes to mind is "It's a wonderful life" where he is drunk and crashes his car into a tree.

Fast forward to today, and almost everybody looks down upon drunk driving. Even in the most tolerant of circles, it's not acceptable. Even though it might be in the music and movies, people don't think its OK to do. And a congressman convicted of drunk driving, then winning his re-election, isn't getting any standing ovation.

Each of the (bad) things you mention have varying degrees of acceptability among social circles. Even though some music might glamorize domestic violence, there is a strongly negative stigma attached to a wife-beater.

I'm not a country fan, but my wife listens to it and what I do hear is usually introspective and somewhat depressing. If there is a reference to drunk driving or a guy hitting his wife, isn't it usually "boy did I fuck up, I'm a real ass"?

A agree, though, that bad themes in music don't necessarily have a strong negative influence over its listeners. But it might reflect the views or experiences of its listeners.


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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: pokermush]
    #6452192 - 01/12/07 01:22 PM (17 years, 19 days ago)

Take a look around. The music in certain time periods has changed youth. However, it's not always in a bad way, look at the love generation. The youth started this, and the music followed, only generating more support, and everyone started wearing colorful shit, threw away homophobia, started fucking much more often, etc.


I completely agree that rap has made the black population worse off. A huge amount of this music encourages drugs that over long periods of time can make you heartless and angry. I've yet to hear a single rap song by any black person singing about the benefits of sticking to acid and mushrooms and making peace with everyone you meet.

And it does quite the opposite of the love generation, it encourages violence and murder over stupid petty crap. It encourages having a giant ego so big that anyone else in the room will suffocate in its monumental shittyness.

Of course black people started rap, but rap spread it to those that were better off, glorifying the lifestyle, influencing those that are very influential.


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OfflineArcofaJourney
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: beatnicknick]
    #6452439 - 01/12/07 02:42 PM (17 years, 19 days ago)

This is ridiculous, you guys keep changing the frame of the argument to fit your viewpoint.

The whole country vs. rap example is bogus.

Just think about the demographics of your typical listener of each style and link it to which socio-economic bracket MOST of the fans fall into. What kinds of schools and families do these people generally come from? Jail time correlates with the latter economics & education) more than the former (music preference).


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InvisibleConservationist
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Silversoul]
    #6454872 - 01/13/07 08:32 AM (17 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I believe the figure is closer to 60%, but in any case, I think the answer is complex. I don't want to excuse any violent offenders for their actions, but we must remember that much of the prison population is comprised of nonviolent drug offenders, and blacks comprise a majority of those offenders as well.




And something like 90% of violent offenders. America's extreme crime problem is minority-driven. I think it results from the fact that you cannot design one culture for two or more ethnic groups. I don't blame minorities; I blame multiculturalism for being a total failure.


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Conservationist]
    #6455197 - 01/13/07 11:15 AM (17 years, 18 days ago)

I don't buy that without some further info...

What is it about our culture that is unsuitable for negroes?

The Irish, for example, integrated well into our culture. As did the Germans, Spanish, Italians, Greeks, etc. etc.

The negro is the only race that did not. Multiculturalism is not to blame, it must be the negro.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6455202 - 01/13/07 11:17 AM (17 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:


What is it about our culture that is unsuitable for negroes?






Work


--------------------


Edited by zappaisgod (01/13/07 11:19 AM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6455204 - 01/13/07 11:18 AM (17 years, 18 days ago)

I apologize for the above post. I don't know what got into me.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6455205 - 01/13/07 11:18 AM (17 years, 18 days ago)

You're on to something there I think.

Excuse my ninja edit.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6455215 - 01/13/07 11:20 AM (17 years, 18 days ago)

I was wondering what happened.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6455224 - 01/13/07 11:23 AM (17 years, 18 days ago)

Often after I hit the post button I'll think of more that I should add.

My mind races like that when I'm high.


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Offlinerobbyberto
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6455236 - 01/13/07 11:30 AM (17 years, 18 days ago)



--------------------
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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: robbyberto]
    #6455282 - 01/13/07 11:54 AM (17 years, 18 days ago)

Wow, according to the negroes' bell curve there are no negroes at all with my intelligence. (140)


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6456236 - 01/13/07 05:18 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

every black person i know has a job.

One of my neighbors is a principal at a school. He leaves the house at 5:30 every morning. He's black.

i think you guys are a bunch of sheltered racists.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: ArcofaJourney]
    #6456367 - 01/13/07 06:01 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

I would be more interested in knowing their employment rate vs. their welfare rate, compared with that of other races.

Your situation could very well be an exception to the overall condition.

I am neither a racist nor an apologist, I'm a realist. The apologists usually lump me in with the racists though.


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6456608 - 01/13/07 08:09 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

Lets ask someone there opinion, then call them a raciest.Because, they didn't like your opinion. :rolleyes:


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Edited by Brainiac (01/13/07 08:09 PM)


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6456610 - 01/13/07 08:09 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

The system, poverty, racism, culture, rebellion against the system, stigma, drugs dealing, and many other factors contribute to the high percentage of blacks being locked up.

Their more threatening looking I guess, cause they usually bigger, they're also different contrast in color makes them easier to spot, the underbelly of poverty is bad, alot of hardcore drugs, theft, violence, overpopulated ghetto areas, all these things go hand n hand, I've been in these areas.

I've been almost jacked by five blacks, I've been around black groups who where into jacking and rapping and all kinds of really bad stuff, its funny these black ghetto gangsters are also run rampant with alot of homosexuality, maybe its blowback from the penal system, also they do irrational things like shootings over a pack of smokes or some small drug deal, that shows a lack of intelligence or education, gangs are also a factor, you have different ethnic groups fighting one another, and black kill blacks more than any other people, so they do alot of it to themselves


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: capliberty]
    #6456740 - 01/13/07 09:14 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

having just today got out of prison I can tell you the numbers aren't all that skewed. It was surprising to see th number of white people in there


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OfflineArcofaJourney
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
    #6456831 - 01/13/07 10:01 PM (17 years, 17 days ago)

saying black people don't like to work isn't a racist statement? Or is that realism?

i know a whole lot of lazy white people that don't do shit for anybody. People are people.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: ArcofaJourney]
    #6458149 - 01/14/07 10:17 AM (17 years, 17 days ago)

White people haven't made it an apparent feature of their culture to not work.


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6458870 - 01/14/07 02:18 PM (17 years, 17 days ago)

Why should they have to work when they have six kids and there kids have kids.So they can, get more welfare and food stamps.


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6459060 - 01/14/07 03:11 PM (17 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
White people haven't made it an apparent feature of their culture to not work.



I think they have, specifically France and the United Automobile Workers.

Additionally, anyone swayed by the IQ bellcurves should know that they're contested by prominent evolutionary biologists, such as Stephen Gould.

I have more fundamental problems with the IQ and Race arguments, a good place to start being "If Asians really have an IQ bell curve that looks like that, how do you explain Vietnam, Indonesia, and Cambodia," Another good question to ask is about the nature of the test. It's well known that common IQ tests (including the ones used in the IQ and race arguments) include measurements of knowledge gained commensurate with age (i.e. they assume that anyone who has had x years of school must have a minimum of y knowledge). Yet it's widely acknowledged that most African Americans attend sub-standard schools, inherently biasing the tests. Finally, the most popular IQ test (the WISC) has been re-centered three times, in 1974, 1991, and 2003. However, the arguments about IQ and race are dependedn upon measurements that don't look at the most recent recenterings, and in some cases go back as far as the 1800s (specifically tests from that far back are used in The Bell Curve, the book most often associated with race-based IQ arguments). Given that IQ and childhood nutrition are heavily correlated, it shouldn't be any surprise that African Americans may not have scored as highly on a test administered in America in the 1800s as they would in a test administered after 1991, and yet post-1991 data is almost never used.

Besides, the point that is being missed here is the reality of demographics in America.

There are more than 4x the number of Caucasian Americans as there are Africa Americans (80% of the population is white vs. 15% Black).

This means that even when you take into account higher African American unemployment, and even if you entertain the idea of a lower racial IQ (which I think is wrong for the reasons listed above), it still wouldn't matter! There would still be MORE unemployed white people, and more white people with lower IQs!

This is just simple math, as the median of the African American "bell curve" would have to be *below* the bottom white quartile in order for there to be more blacks with low IQs than whites in America, which even if you accept the IQ arguments, it isn't (you can see the graph here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sketch-4race-transparent2.png ). And in order for there to be more unemployed blacks than whites, blacks would need to have an unemployment rate greater than 4x that of whites (which they don't, the actual figure is slightly more than 2x, you can see that here: http://www.bls(dot)gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm ).

Thus, even if unemployment or low IQs meant prison, then at most you would expect a rate of between 2x and 4x as many blacks in prison as whites. However, as Human Rights Watch has reported (here: http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/usa/Rcedrg00-01.htm#P167_28183) the actual figures are often as high as 11x or 12x the rate of incarceration.

Very clearly something does not add up, as controlling for both unemployment and alleged IQ disparity still would not explain the the sheer volume of blacks in prison.


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: ArcofaJourney]
    #6460728 - 01/14/07 11:25 PM (17 years, 16 days ago)

yea, there is someting to say against that tho. While we are all AMericans, we don'tm the demographics are a a strange afair. Sub cultures and a poepl of similar economice standing generally share similar customs. HABI(tats) if you will. It is almost a na inarguable fact that the values handed down from elders to youth is poor mostly black communities may be against working and hoentsty. Life is hard in the hood.

please excuse any erors, I smoked weed for the first time in years just a minute ago. It may have an impact on my responses.

puh yeace.


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
    #6460747 - 01/14/07 11:37 PM (17 years, 16 days ago)

It sounds like you are having a very good day. :thumbup:

I'm on vacation after a few months of a lot of work, not even halfway through the vacation, and I've been smoking up as well, so the feeling must be similar. :cool:


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6460784 - 01/14/07 11:57 PM (17 years, 16 days ago)

yea, having just now proof read my respnse I can clearly see I am high, and yes Fireworksm I got released from prison today and it has been most glorious of a day.


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
    #6460819 - 01/15/07 12:09 AM (17 years, 16 days ago)

:cool:


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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6461858 - 01/15/07 11:28 AM (17 years, 16 days ago)

Look at how much blacks have changed. Look at some of the black musicians of our past, the great leaders (Mr. King) and how they managed to befriend (some) white people and actually reduced their oppression by a large margin. Why have they changed so much from the 60's and 70's to this point? If you remember, they acted and spoke much differently. I was around for this, were you? What could have possibly changed such an enourmous population so quickly?

That's why I look to the culture definer- music. I've seen the transition myself, a black friend of mine, Isaac, was actually a white man. Yeah he had black skin, but he was white. He didn't listen to music much, but was slowly listening to more and more rap.

As our neighborhood grew blacker, the influence of his black friends combined with the glorified life rap music proposed, he started making cash on the side dealing small time drugs. This wasn't him at all. Then I noticed that he started calling his friends "Nigga" and avoiding complex language. Then he started with the dats, ain'ts, and who be hes, and before long I heard him say you don't know who I'm is.

Now he's "black" as ever and wont even speak normally to even me. He's moved on from dealing small time weed to trying coke and this past week he was so fucked up he hit a truck while turning into an intersection.

I think it started as a small snowball, and for one reason or another, the music industry decided to make it popular (they have that power) and slowly tumbled, grew larger and became more of a mainstream culture, it justified the lifestyles of those who may have not been to proud of it, and even moved on to the influental white teenagers, who just act ridiculous. Theres no way that all these wiggers talked like this from birth. There's no way they would be on the streets talking about how "dey's hard" in a little white suburban area if they had lived during the Beatle's age.


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Edited by beatnicknick (01/15/07 11:34 AM)


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: beatnicknick]
    #6462076 - 01/15/07 12:47 PM (17 years, 16 days ago)

Fo real /do'es he axe you


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Offlinepokermush
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: beatnicknick]
    #6466361 - 01/16/07 03:19 PM (17 years, 15 days ago)

Interesting story.
Quote:

beatnicknick said:As our neighborhood grew blacker, the influence of his black friends combined with the glorified life rap music proposed



Yes, I think the music is an influence. But it is far less of an influence than what you see as acceptable within your social circles. Notice that the change starts when his social circle changed so that his new peers were accepting of crime, violence, and dis-education.


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: pokermush]
    #6467031 - 01/16/07 06:17 PM (17 years, 15 days ago)

Yeah, I still really don't think it's the music. Mostly because the whole argument about "The music is ruining the children" has come up in most socio-economic strata at one time or another, and yet there is clearly something going on specifically with African Americans that transcends this.

Besides, on a more practical level, what East Asian rap does exist, along with a great deal of Latino music, does glorify crime and the criminal lifestyle. Yet we just don't see the same incarceration rates in those groups as we do among African Americans.

I started reading about this in my free time after this thread started, since I really do think this is a problem. I study economics, so most of my side-reading comes from there.

Interestingly enough, I did find that Harvard Economist Roland Fryer, who has studied the problem at length from several angles, did actually produce a result that pointed at "black culture".

Specifically, he was able to find data supporting the idea that, in a public school setting, black students who strive to achieve in school are penalized for it by their peers. They're frequently put-down for "acting white" and told that they need to choose between doing well in school and having friends.

The really interesting part, however, is that this effect goes away in situations where the black students "get outside the neighborhood". He found that black students in wealthy neighborhoods, or attending private schools, didn't face the same penalization for achievement. Essentially "the neighborhood" was creating the problem, and once removed blacks performed as well as whites.

Anyway, you can read his article about it here:
Acting White. I thought it was pretty interesting, especially since I didn't expect "black culture" to be part of the findings at all.


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Economist]
    #6467367 - 01/16/07 07:41 PM (17 years, 15 days ago)

Has anyone considered that more blacks grow up without Fathers, father figures and strong male role models, that set different examples for a way of life, different from the music glorifying a criminal way of life, for them to ultimately follow.

Any thoughts there?

:peace: :heart:


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6467464 - 01/16/07 08:03 PM (17 years, 15 days ago)

That's because all the fathers are in prison, so the system doesn't allow for many black children to grow up in as nearly a stable environment as most white children.


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Ravus]
    #6467499 - 01/16/07 08:12 PM (17 years, 15 days ago)

I think thats the most probable explanation for why blacks seem to be more influenced by rap music glorifying a criminal way of life, then whites, asians or latinos are by it.

It's a viscous circle indeed.

:peace: :heart:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6470601 - 01/17/07 06:17 PM (17 years, 14 days ago)

Daniel Patrick Moynihan stated this back in the 60s as a prediction.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6476092 - 01/19/07 10:55 AM (17 years, 12 days ago)

O.K. so assuming your hypothesis is correct...

What beneficial purpose, if any, does this viscious cycle serve for the system?

Did the system place this cycle in play to reap some benefit to itself, or did the Negro evolve into this cycle themselves or on their own?

Again, who is the most responsible for the current condition of the negro in America?


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6476364 - 01/19/07 12:15 PM (17 years, 12 days ago)

Closed looped systems exist in many places. Weather people put themselves into them, external forces do, is what is being debated here regarding the disproportionate amount of blacks in prison.

How does a black kid raised in a pro gangsta life style by his peers without a Father or Father figure, acting as a strong role model and guide for another way, break the loop?

Clearly, jail time isn;t much of a deterrent and I wouldn;t be surprised when so many blacks see so many of their friends and family members going in and out of jail as a way of life. It is the way of life for so many of them, as opposed to some of us who have had strong environmental influences and examples that tell us, it is not the way or where you ever want to end up and show us other ways to follow.

I think poor black people conglomerating together into little villages they call hoods, then glamorize with bling, rims and the power of guns, all paid for by criminal activity, is only helping to keep the closed loop system alive and thriving. I think black women being recklessly irresponsible with getting pregnant by any looser who flashes them a grill or prison tat, counting on welfare to support their kids leaving rap music and Iceman on the corner who steals cars for a living to raise them, is only helping to keep the closed looped system alive and thriving.

Here is how I see the big picture. I think whites were definitely a strong external power that helped to set up the closed loop system through initial acts like segregation, and racial profiling when it came to arresting and prosecuting people for criminal activity.

After that, I think its been up to blacks to recognize the viscous cycle that resulted and bust themselves out of it. Many have and are doing very well for themselves and are great producers to society. Many of them go back to help the others break free from it. I think progress is slowly being made.

So much equal opportunity and exposure to positive role models for them is out there now, that regardless of how it got started, at this point, I say, they only have themselves to blame.

Who is to say that the types that move in and out of jail through the turn style haven't developed some sick idea that being something to fear is the way to empower yourself instead of being educated with a decent honest job with something of constructive value to offer society.

People have commented on how stupid so many are because they set themselves up to get caught so easily. Does anyone think that for them, its not stupid, but rather smart and cool to show others how BAAAAD Ass they are because they've done hard time for something BAAAD.

The psychology behind how all of this came to be is warped to the core and I think it started with segregation, unequal opportunity and racial profiling after slavery was abolished and just snow balled from there.

Thats not an excuse to me, for why a disproportionate amount of blacks are in prison. They all know the laws, penalties for breaking them and have a conscious if they choose to exercise it. It's just an explanation for how I see that it has come to be this way. It doesn't have to be that way either.

Its as if they refuse to accept the fact that they are now free and have been enslaving themselves to their own idiot influences.

Many white people are mentally enslaved by many other types of closed looped systems generated and kept alive by their own idiot influences, too. I only focused on the black because thats what this topic is about.

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6476406 - 01/19/07 12:28 PM (17 years, 12 days ago)

Excellent analysis.


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #6499718 - 01/26/07 03:35 PM (17 years, 5 days ago)

Black males’ low achievement could hurt economy
Lawmakers encouraged by Deasy’s reforms
Thursday, Jan. 25, 2007

Prince George’s County’s recent economic prosperity could be jeopardized unless African-American males, who make up a sizable portion of the future workforce, make greater strides in academic achievement, business advocates and educators say.

African-American males make up 39 percent of the county’s public school population, or nearly 52,000 students, and they have among the lowest rates of academic achievement.

These advocates say black boys need more focused support from the school system to be effective workers when they graduate from high school or are ready to attend college.

‘‘We are going to start seeing ourselves regressing [economically] if we don’t ensure African-American males are being educated in a way that would make them productive and effective members of the workforce and society in general,” said Orlan Johnson, a member of the Board of Regents for the University of Maryland.

‘‘You&#8217;re either growing or you’re dying.”

Johnson and other advocates say that the situation in Prince George’s includes some hopeful signs.

Standardized test scores have been climbing, albeit slowly for African-American males, and Schools Superintendent John Deasy is implementing a long list of reforms designed to aid all struggling students at all grade levels.

‘‘If you can start to make a difference there [in Prince George’s] you’ll start to make a difference overall,” Johnson said.

A state report released in December 2006 said black males need some of the most focused help that the state could offer to ensure they succeeded in school.

The report’s recommendations mirrored some of Deasy’s reforms, including making more rigorous courses accessible to black males and putting culturally sensitive teachers in classrooms to teach them. Another recommendation, same sex classrooms for African-American males, is similar to one of Deasy’s proposals for smaller learning communities that he has pitched to the county school board.

The report was produced after three years of research by a 49-member task force in conjunction with the Maryland State Department of Education.

Rushern Baker, an education consultant and task force member, said Deasy’s approach offered hope for black males after years of stagnation.

‘‘It&#8217;s a good news, bad news situation,” Baker said. ‘‘The bad news is... [African-American males] are the population that doesn’t appear to be achieving at any great rate. The good news is we have a superintendent who understands this. He gets it.”

Johnson particularly praised Deasy’s reforms, which include putting the strongest and most effective teachers in the schools that struggled the most to increase student achievement. Providing greater access to college-level Advanced Placement and International Baccalaureate programs, another of Deasy’s reforms, was also a sign that things were turning around for African-American males.

The report says African-American males were still vulnerable because they were not achieving as quickly as either African-American females or other racial subgroups.

Those concerns still hold in Prince George’s, despite the recent progress.

On the High School Assessments, which are required by state law for graduation, black males passed at lower rates than black females and almost every other racial subgroup.

Of African-American males who took the algebra exam in the 2006 school year, for example, only 37.7 percent passed, almost 10 percent fewer than African American females.

Asian males passed the exam 71 percent of the time, and white males passed it 74.9 percent of the time.

While these rates of passing are low for black males, they have increased over the past four years and showed their largest increase in the 2006 school year.

Johnson said that if poor performance of African American males in school continued, it could mean that county businesses could have to go outside the state to bring in workers to compensate.

‘‘Or it could slow down businesses coming here,” Johnson said. ‘‘One of the first things they [businesses] want to know is what kind of workforce they’re going to have.

‘‘If they can’t find it here there are other jurisdictions that would be able to provide that.”

Training the county’s workforce to ensure Prince George’s holds on to its economic development gains is critical, said M.H. Jim Estepp, head of the Prince George’s Greater Business Roundtable.

He said the focus should be on all struggling students, and not just on African American males.

‘‘We want to lift these kids up,” Estepp, a former county council member said. ‘‘There are many in the business community and in the academic field that workforce development is a high, if not the No. 1 priority in the county.”

E-mail Guy Leonard at gleonard@gazette.net.

Copyright © 2006 The Gazette - ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Privacy Statement

http://www.gazette.net/stories/012507/prinedu183415_32001.shtml


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OfflineHouse
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Luddite]
    #6508607 - 01/29/07 02:19 PM (17 years, 2 days ago)

While I do believe whites have an unfair advantage, it doesn't mean the blacks in prison don't belong there simply because they are black. Obviously they committed a crime serious enough to deem prison. If blacks or any other race wants to stay out of prison, stop breaking the law.


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: House]
    #6513107 - 01/30/07 04:43 PM (17 years, 1 day ago)



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