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Hashishi
Unfuckwit'able


Registered: 09/09/06
Posts: 60
Loc: UK
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Hank, FTW]
#6444627 - 01/10/07 09:31 AM (17 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
What were some of the striking elements of your research?
There were two things that I found particularly striking. The first was the very high rates of incarceration among young black men, in particular if they haven’t been to college. When we actually calculated the estimates, we were finding that one in three black men now in their mid-30s had prison records, and that one in three black men who hadn’t been to college now had prison records; and if they had dropped out of high school the number was two in three. These were astonishingly high numbers and initially we thought we’d made mistakes in our calculations. We only have to go back 20 years to find a time when the penal system was not a pervasive presence in the lives of young black men.
The other surprising element involved reexamining labor market trends, particularly during the 1990s. The story about the 1990s was that economic growth and the labor market were so strong, particularly at the end of the 1990s, that the market was finally providing benefits to very marginal workers — young men with less than a college education — and their employment rates and wages were apparently increasing. All of these statistics, of course, don’t take into account the fact that a growing share of that population is increasingly in prison and doesn’t show up in any economic statistics. Once you take account of the growing numbers of poor young men in prison, you can see that black men obtained no real economic benefit at all from the economic expansion of the 1990s. This was a pretty surprising finding because there was a consensus that very strong economic growth could provide benefits to the furthest margins of the labor market.
What policy recommendations do you have for breaking the cycle of mass imprisonment?
We need to do at least two things. We need to re-examine our current approach to drug control policy. At the moment, incarceration is the presumptive sentence for drug offenders. I think we need to look at that and ask: Is this really the best way to spend our criminal justice dollars? Particularly in light of evidence that shows that many drug offenders really pose little risk of violent crime to the community. But changes in sentencing policy are not going to be enough. The fundamental problem is there is still no real functioning economy in poor urban neighborhoods of concentrated disadvantage. And as long as a shortage of jobs remains, as long as we have these very high rates of unemployment among young unskilled men, we’re still going to get very high rates of involvement of these young men in the criminal justice system. So I think ultimately we can’t avoid trying to solve the social problems that we’ve so far only tried to solve through criminal justice policy with social policy.
SOURCE
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker


Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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It's a combination of poverty and the system. Many cops are racist towards blacks based on their previous experiences, creating a self-perpetuating system, and therefore they're more likely to target blacks to pull them over or search them. Seeing as some blacks do tend to use a lot of drugs due to some of their subcultures (although I wouldn't blame the blacks or their subcultures, as these were created in response to the racism of the system that had been inherent for centuries) blacks will be more likely to be arrested just driving around because of the police selection process.
Then, when they are arrested, due to the fact that many urban schools and urban kids don't get a good education nowadays, they don't know their rights, and they probably don't have enough money to get a good lawyer. That is why there is so many blacks in prison. And after you put someone in prison, they're exposed to more crime, so instead of rehabilitation for people that actually need it, they just end up going out with a new perspective that supports crime. Our prisons never seem to reform anyone, so as we get new people into cells, we also get old prisoners returning time and time again.
So I chose "the system", as it is mostly the system's fault.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker


Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Economist]
#6444900 - 01/10/07 11:22 AM (17 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
I don't see that poverty plays a roll in it, as several studies have shown that crime and economic performance aren't actually very stongly linked (It surprised me when I learned it too). For quick reference consider this: The greatest upswing in the "crack epidemic" actually occured during the economic boom of the 1980s. Even when more and more jobs were available, more and more gangs and individuals were going to jail for crack-related activities.
Indeed, that is surprising, but it doesn't mean poverty isn't linked with the penal system. If two men, a middle-class, probably white male and a poor black male commit the same crime, which do you think will get a heavier sentence? The one who can buy a professional lawyer, or the one who gets a shitty public defender?
So even if crime and poverty aren't linked, there may still be a link between the enormous costs of the court system and serving longer sentences because of the inability to pay those costs.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall


Registered: 08/25/06
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Ravus]
#6444931 - 01/10/07 11:28 AM (17 years, 21 days ago) |
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There is certainly a racial element here... I look like a pretty straight white dude, and I have NO FEAR driving around with my stash. I use my one-hitter everyday, pass right by cops and don't blink an eye.
If I were a black dude, and happened to like hippityhop music and gold teeth, I would very likely NOT drive around with my weed. Even if I looked fairly straight, I'd be more paranoid.
EVERYONE does some shady shit, but the brothers fill the prisons... So something is obviously out of whack. If they stopped locking up simple drug offenders, things would proabably even out.
Economist, I think I read an article that said the newly Dem congress will be looking into the whole Crack/Coke laws, so you must be on target there.
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Brainiac
Rogue Scientist


Registered: 04/29/06
Posts: 13,259
Loc: 與您的女朋
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If they didn't do most of the crime, they won't be in prison.It's the system that made them rob a bank.
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Fair is Fair
Edited by Brainiac (01/10/07 11:39 AM)
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Brainiac]
#6444974 - 01/10/07 11:37 AM (17 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Brainiac said: If they did do most of the crime, they won't be in prison.
That doesn't make any sense.
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Brainiac
Rogue Scientist


Registered: 04/29/06
Posts: 13,259
Loc: 與您的女朋
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Redstorm]
#6445006 - 01/10/07 11:42 AM (17 years, 21 days ago) |
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Its becoming a why of life in USA.That people always blame someone, something else for there own fuck-ups in life.
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Fair is Fair
Edited by Brainiac (01/10/07 11:45 AM)
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Hank, FTW
Looking for the Answer

Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 3,912
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Forget simple drug (use) offenses. I would be interested in the stats of blacks raping, murdering, robbing, assaulting.
-------------------- Capliberty: "I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall


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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Brainiac]
#6445023 - 01/10/07 11:45 AM (17 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Brainiac said: In the USA people always blame someone, something else for there own fuck-ups in life.
The point you are missing is that we ALL fuck up sometime or another. But, being white and middle class, I GET AWAY WITH IT more often than a poor black guy.
Futhermore, even if they catch me, I can get a WAY better lawyer and get off with probation or less.
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Brainiac
Rogue Scientist


Registered: 04/29/06
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They shouldn't do the crime, if they can't do the time Like the duke rape case, we will never here any of the black leaders come out and say we're sorry and we where wrung.
Edited by Brainiac (01/10/07 11:53 AM)
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pokermush
Waterboardingmyself toprotect America!


Registered: 09/17/06
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Brainiac]
#6445510 - 01/10/07 02:28 PM (17 years, 21 days ago) |
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I couldn't answer the poll because my answer wasn't one of the choices.
I think blacks constitute a larger percentage of the prison population because they commit more of the crime. They commit more of the crime because of the "black culture" in this country that accepts crime as an admirable (or at least excusable) activity for a black person who wants to get ahead. From the black-oriented discussions I've read, and the black-oriented programming I've seen (especially on MTV), I don't see blacks attaching as much of a negative social stigma to other blacks who commit crimes. A good example of this: when the congressional black caucus gave Jefferson a standing ovation. http://www.cnn.com/POLITICS/blogs/politicalticker/2007/01/congressional-black-caucus-gives.html
I hate making blanket statements like that because I know that there are plenty of good, upstanding black people. But I also hate seeing people give a standing ovation to someone under investigation for bribery just because he happens to be black and seems to have escaped the consequences of his actions.
But why is crime so acceptable in the black culture? I think it is because generations of government handouts that have made them less independent and sends the message that they aren't as capable as everybody else, combined with those who like to portray their race as downtrodden by society for their own personal gain. A couple examples are Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, but even the white politicians who are seeking the black vote are guilty of it as well.
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Hank, FTW
Looking for the Answer

Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 3,912
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: pokermush]
#6445525 - 01/10/07 02:33 PM (17 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
pokermush said: I couldn't answer the poll because my answer wasn't one of the choices.
I think blacks constitute a larger percentage of the prison population because they commit more of the crime. They commit more of the crime because of the "black culture" in this country that accepts crime as an admirable (or at least excusable) activity for a black person who wants to get ahead. From the black-oriented discussions I've read, and the black-oriented programming I've seen (especially on MTV), I don't see blacks attaching as much of a negative social stigma to other blacks who commit crimes. A good example of this: when the congressional black caucus gave Jefferson a standing ovation. http://www.cnn.com/POLITICS/blogs/politicalticker/2007/01/congressional-black-caucus-gives.html
I hate making blanket statements like that because I know that there are plenty of good, upstanding black people. But I also hate seeing people give a standing ovation to someone under investigation for bribery just because he happens to be black and seems to have escaped the consequences of his actions.
But why is crime so acceptable in the black culture? I think it is because generations of government handouts that have made them less independent and sends the message that they aren't as capable as everybody else, combined with those who like to portray their race as downtrodden by society for their own personal gain. A couple examples are Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, but even the white politicians who are seeking the black vote are guilty of it as well.
-------------------- Capliberty: "I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "
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Lightningfractal
Nutcase

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,899
Loc: Heaven and Hell
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: pokermush]
#6445559 - 01/10/07 02:41 PM (17 years, 21 days ago) |
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Yes, the black culture allows it. Which goes right back to my saying that their style of resistance is ineffective and impotent.
It's like they're saying as a race: "Let's get even with them by filling up their jails with our bodies!" Just doesn't cut it.
Hello Darwin?...
-------------------- Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all
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Lightningfractal
Nutcase

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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: pokermush]
#6445639 - 01/10/07 03:07 PM (17 years, 21 days ago) |
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Oh, and those of you who "couldn't vote in the poll", please select the "STAL" option and vote so that you can view the current poll tally. That's what "STAL" is for.
-------------------- Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all
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ArcofaJourney
Internaltransportationdevice

Registered: 10/05/05
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Alright i'll go tell my black friends that get pulled over constantly FOR NOTHING to stop being so black.
i can not seriously believe some of the uneducated ideas on these boards. Living proof that enlightenment does not come from psychedelic drugs.
History books are out there.
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Lightningfractal
Nutcase

Registered: 06/24/03
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I can understand why you may feel like that, however this is an objective analysis. Nothing is being cut in stone here.
If you can explain why the black cannot after 20 years prevent the prisons from remaining 90% black then let us know please, we wanna know.
I have Darwin on the phone....
-------------------- Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all
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Economist
in training


Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Ravus]
#6447089 - 01/10/07 10:16 PM (17 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Ravus said: Indeed, that is surprising, but it doesn't mean poverty isn't linked with the penal system. If two men, a middle-class, probably white male and a poor black male commit the same crime, which do you think will get a heavier sentence? The one who can buy a professional lawyer, or the one who gets a shitty public defender?
So even if crime and poverty aren't linked, there may still be a link between the enormous costs of the court system and serving longer sentences because of the inability to pay those costs.
This might be true, but the reality is that the numbers involved are so small that it couldn't possibly be the major answer to the question of why so many black people are incarcerated.
The fact of the matter is that there are more poor white people in America than there are poor black people. There might be a higher percentage of poor black people compared to the total population of black people, but because the white population is so large as a whole, the majority of the poor population is still white.
Taking numbers from the 2000 census (source: http://money.cnn.com/2004/08/26/news/economy/poverty_survey ) we can see that the poverty rate of blacks is twice that of whites. However, blacks make up somewhere slightly less than 15% of the total population while whites make up almost 80%. Simply put there are WAY more poor white people in America than poor black people.
Yet the incarceration rate of blacks and whites doesn't compare. If the answer to the question of blacks in prison really was poverty, then there should still be MORE whites in prison than blacks. As I've already pointed out above, the same can be said for the Hispanic population. They also have a much lower incarceration rate than blacks, despite a comparable poverty rate.
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Lightningfractal
Nutcase

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Re: Too many blacks in prison? [Re: Economist]
#6447117 - 01/10/07 10:24 PM (17 years, 20 days ago) |
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And that's why the correct answer to the original poll is "the black", like it or not they are the only variable left that is constant.
-------------------- Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all
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Economist
in training


Registered: 10/11/05
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Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Quote:
Lightningfractal said: And that's why the correct answer to the original poll is "the black", like it or not they are the only variable left that is constant.
I already pointed out above that there are variables not measured in this poll, such as the crack vs. powder cocaine laws, and the nature of policing strategies (as one example, black neighborhoods are more patrolled, so beat-cops witness more black crime).
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker


Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Quote:
Lightningfractal said: And that's why the correct answer to the original poll is "the black", like it or not they are the only variable left that is constant.
Not really. The black subcultures may be part of it, but the system may be an even larger part after so many years of racism and legal superiority to the blacks encourages white police to (subconsciously or consciously) use race as a major criteria in enforcing the laws. Police and the entire system used to judge blacks are clearly constant, and also help to explain the comparison to Hispanics, who are much lighter and look much more like white people, therefore making them less vulnerable to our racist American system.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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