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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Ethnobotanical Garden
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's- A Reason For Experimenting With Different Stocks [Re: durian_2008]
    #27854709 -

I'm saying to compare a beef tomato with a smaller variety but rather a pampered plant vs a 'wild' plant. Plant vigor and select breeding for the best plants will produce better crop but rather than grow plants in natural soil conditions be it poor or poor light and perfecting from there many choose to artificially improve via excess water/nutrients/light...

again from a production and economical point it is best to do this just not best for the actual product as far as nutrients or alkaloids. Like the organic vs synthetic nutrients to me it doesn't matter but should be within normal amounts. But I'm not a commercial seller so ignore these points.


I thought redwoods survived because of the ocean breeze and fogs since over 100 feet the water wouldn't reach leaves with the internal pressure. Man too much information in general to try to adapt to cacti and see if they apply.


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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's- A Reason For Experimenting With Different Stocks [Re: modern.shaman]
    #27856258 -

Quote:
Man too much information in general to try to adapt to cacti and see if they apply.


:heart: I can stay busy forever.

Quote:
I thought redwoods survived because of the ocean breeze and fogs since over 100 feet the water wouldn't reach leaves with the internal pressure


Giraffes are understood to have adaptations for coping with greater pressure, analagous to the flow rate of water in a tree.

Would grafting a tomato to a tree stock result in a ballooning situation, as when slower growing peyote is grafted to faster growing Pereskiopsis?

Does a steady flow rate from a deep tap root provide richer nourishment and prevent it from splitting?

Does the scion respond to branching hormones, and make a taller plant, with all the same proportions as a cherry or Galapagos tomato?

I feel that the cactus may ultimately be encouraged to root, and the pepper severed from the host plant. The cactus carries it's own water reservoir, also in a succulent tap root. It has superior cold hardiness and longer lifespan.

Would cuttings from the resultant plant retain some of the same properties? :shrug:

:tongue2: Some people make their whole lifework from a single specie.


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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's- A Reason For Experimenting With Different Stocks [Re: durian_2008]
    #27857319 -

Yea agreed never bored and can always diverge to test something and cycle back to original ideas.

Grafting ALWAYS transfers some genes based on the studies on tomato grafts and other papers.
We may not notice the differences and they may not even transfer but they are there...

Hmm now the reason ballooning happens is something I wanna dive into now. The splitting happens from excess nutrients and not excess water based on my experience. Now the bloating just thinking about it for a few minutes and no research I guess is similar to fat cells where the body stores excess reserves because that's its main goal then it slows down reserves but doesn't stop. The inner cells seem to mainly be water reserves and nutrients I assume but don't have enough understanding on the structure even after reading a few papers.

Now as far as grafting and how we graft I have notices something that seems to not have been researched. I'm waiting on testing it myself before sharing but might make some interesting future results.

I'm sure that the cactus will eventually root and is just feeding off the nutrients of the pepper. As far as water reserves at the size it was grafted most wouldn't survive to root let alone survive without a 'host' like the pepper.

Has grafting onto inferior stocks been studied... lol we can make so many research proposals ... how hard is it to get a grant to waste a few years lol. Wonder what the burn out rate is on obsessing on a singular topic for years is, as a hobbyist and likely on the spectrum I enjoy this but I can see most going crazy like post office workers.


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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's- A Reason For Experimenting With Different Stocks [Re: modern.shaman]
    #27857368 -

Quote:
I'm sure that the cactus will eventually root and is just feeding off the nutrients of the pepper.


What if they are re-positioned, so the pepper feeds off the cactus?


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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's- A Reason For Experimenting With Different Stocks [Re: durian_2008] * 1
    #27857616 -

I setup a test but didn't work out... used an opuntia as the stock... maybe a stronger or larger stock might work? This one it looking sadder and sadder. MAYBE if I impaled the pepper plant but was "scared" that it would just root and trick me that it fused and grafted successfully.



So these grafts failed eventually... they may be considered "alive" but no new growth so fail.


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Edited by modern.shaman (11/25/22 09:10 AM)

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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's- A Reason For Experimenting With Different Stocks [Re: modern.shaman]
    #27857982 -

:heart: I'm going to try some in a couple of days. :thumbup:


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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's- A Reason For Experimenting With Different Stocks [Re: durian_2008] * 2
    #28068349 -

So burning an astrophytum graft does seem to have induced it to flower much earlier then other grafts that are much larger and older. I'll reattempt this with other species to see if not a one off and also try own root seedlings.

Another experiment worth trying for those that have extra mature trichocereus is girdling to attempt to induce flowering. I did it with seedlings that are a month away from being yearlings. I'm not expecting flowers but I do believe that there will be increased girth and maturity in the new growth.



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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's- A Reason For Experimenting With Different Stocks [Re: modern.shaman]
    #28068468 -

Cool stuff, modern.
So the theory is that girdling will push the plant to increase the girth of new growth?

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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's- A Reason For Experimenting With Different Stocks [Re: turtle_hermit]
    #28068600 -

Yea... the carbs and nutrients from the roots will flow upwards however on the return from new production of carbs from the top section of the plant will not flow back as it will be bottlenecked and the accumulation of carbs should cause flowering and wider growth on the new growth.

People also do this with trees... I'd imagine it'll translate to cacti as well.


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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's- A Reason For Experimenting With Different Stocks [Re: modern.shaman]
    #28069509 -

Very cool, excited to see the results Modern. Really like how your extrapolating and testing out some theories that have potentially remained untouched. :strokebeard:


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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's- A Reason For Experimenting With Different Stocks [Re: Acaterpillar]
    #28069770 -

On reddit trying to recruit someone to test girdling a pc or another trichocereus someone mentioned a dude on instagram cuts the bases of his cacti claiming it results in thicker cacti... it does make sense.

Waiting on his @ to see how he does it and see if he can share anything he's noticed.


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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's- A Reason For Experimenting With Different Stocks [Re: modern.shaman]
    #28093415 -

So I'm starting another experiment where I'll try to induce flowering on younger cacti. I have had a lopho graft flower however visually it was already close so I discount it. Another own root cactus Parodia warasii also flowering/budding now was also treated but it is possible that it was just the correct size since it is the regular season for these flowers(summer). So I'll just consider it a coincidence. I've treated a few other grafts and also an own root lopho that has been reluctant to flower due to being very stressed from exposed taproot and salt waterings (this does cause lower flowering occurance). At some point I'll feel its more than just a coincidence however for the time being I don't have enough seedlings to do a good controlled experiment. I did treat a planter of own root seedlings which I learned that two applications will burn the lophos but not the astrophytum. Also safe for my trichocereus seedling but no mature enough to flower I would assume at 11 months lol.




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Edited by modern.shaman (12/11/22 04:08 PM)

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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's- A Reason For Experimenting With Different Stocks [Re: modern.shaman]
    #28338367 -

Started some new and repeat experiments Posting here since I'll be rereading this thread again in the near future.



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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's- A Reason For Experimenting With Different Stocks [Re: modern.shaman]
    #28618769 -



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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's- A Reason For Experimenting With Different Stocks [Re: modern.shaman]
    #28622144 -

This thread has really interesting ideas in it, I never considered attempting grafts between something so vastly different as peppers and cacti.  I don't have any chimeras but this is a multi-species graft that I did on top of opuntia.  There are 4 different scions on top of the two rootstocks.

My experience is grafting cacti specifically is that there's not really any stipulation about which ones can or can't be grafted as long as both sides are healthy and everything else being equal.  Basically any two cacti should be able to be grafted to each other.

Another observation I had is that when I first started grafting cacti I always tried to align the vascular rings since this was recommended more often than not.  What I found is that it's not necessary though and you can successfully graft with no overlap of vascular bundles.  If you have not tried this before you can try it next time you graft by intentionally not intersecting the bundles and the graft should still take.



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Edited by Mycoplex (01/15/24 03:05 PM)

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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's- A Reason For Experimenting With Different Stocks [Re: Mycoplex] * 1
    #28622907 -

I've seen that on reddit... dude grafted completely off the ring and it worked.

It was gonna be a test of mine but decided to delay since I already saw it was possible... pretty cool stuff.

The pepper cactus graft was just a one off. There was clearly enough to keep it alive but no growth or anything so I'm not sure its worth pursuing.

The main thing is to always try new stuff. doesn't need to be extreme even something simple can turn out to be a great alternative to common wisdom.


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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's- A Reason For Experimenting With Different Stocks [Re: modern.shaman]
    #28633190 -

This is a bit outside cactus grafting but I decided to try this project out on a whim.

It's a graft between two Aroids.  The scion (right) is Philodendron Burle Marx and the rootstock is Golden Pothos.  Since Pothos is one of the most prevalent and prolific aroids I'm venturing a guess that they can fill the role of a good rootstock (maybe just temporarily to boost growth) for other Aroids, kind of like how we use Pereskiopsis on cacti for its utility.

When I split these, I noticed the internal structure is similar to cacti somewhat, in the sense that there look to be structures similar to vascular bundles.  They are way more flimsy than the vascular bundles on cacti but my my hope is that they can work similarly. 



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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's- A Reason For Experimenting With Different Stocks [Re: Mycoplex]
    #28634542 -

Cool info. Really wide grafts rarely will work. The pepper graft was really a one off and didn't show any real growth just stayed 'alive'. If you do try it out please share your results.


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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's- A Reason For Experimenting With Different Stocks [Re: modern.shaman] * 1
    #28638121 -

The Aroid graft above between the Philodendron and Pothos is still alive, and I since did a second graft of the same combination.  There is no noticeable difference in growth on the scion yet (the Philodendron) but it appears to have plumped just slightly and is still alive.


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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: modern.shaman]
    #28764070 -

Amazing!

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Ethnobotanical Garden
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