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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff *DELETED* [Re: naum]
    #25077424 - 03/20/18 10:53 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: durian_2008]
    #25077495 - 03/20/18 11:26 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

durian_2008 said:
Quote:

Signaling Effect of activation NF-κB ... Extracts from a number of herbs and dietary plants are efficient inhibitors of NF-κB activation in vitro.
(wikipedia)








Efficient inhibitors of NF-κB activation in vitro with mouse cells from what I'm seeing. The full title of the reference for that statement is "Extract of Oregano, Coffee, Thyme, Clove, and Walnuts Inhibits NF-κB in Monocytes and in Transgenic Reporter Mice"

The Wikipedia article "NF-κB" says that NF-κB proteins are present in most animal cells, but from what I can see it does not say that they exist in plants. Plants producing chemicals that can affect NF-κB in animals is not the same thing as plants themselves having those NF-κB proteins.


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff *DELETED* [Re: psi]
    #25077512 - 03/20/18 11:35 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: durian_2008]
    #25077522 - 03/20/18 11:42 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

If plants have no NF-κB proteins to affect, I don't see any particular reason to expect thalidomide to do something similar in plants. If plants do have NF-κB proteins that's a different story, but I haven't seen anything to indicate that they do, so I'm inclined to think that naum may be right.


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff *DELETED* [Re: psi]
    #25077560 - 03/20/18 11:57 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: durian_2008]
    #25077712 - 03/20/18 01:13 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not offended, I like to speculate on biology topics as well and am definitely no expert in this area. It might be the case that it would work, I'm just saying that naum's position makes the most sense to me from the information available. If someone is willing to try it though, obtaining the thalidomide might be tricky.


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OfflineSolipsis
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: psi]
    #25079981 - 03/21/18 12:38 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Indeed: note the wink... I was joking about the teratogen side effects of thalidomide, indeed no reason why teratogenic effects on humans/animals would translate to mutant growth in plants. If it were a true mutagen in humans then I wouldn't rule it out.

And agreed: it would be very hard to get hold of racemic thalidomide which is what you'd need, not the enantomerically pure medicin which is not harmful / teratogenic in humans (though I trust it may be fallen out of grace from the crisis/scandal.

Is roundup actually mutagenic, wouldn't it just kill the plant or is it as always a matter of finding the right dosage? While I am not opposed to chemicals in general (obviously) I do seriously distrust roundup because it has epigenetic effects apparently.

What's that about atavisms? Never heard that in plants, is it related to vestigial growth like vestigial leaves on cacti? Magnetism can cause it??

As for the radiation, don't you need a kind of radiation for that produced by radioactive elements which you probably can't and shouldn't buy? No offense but I don't think a layman can or should try to handle such radioactive materials, it's not easily containable and you can't switch it off like using UV-C.


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OfflineMateo
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: durian_2008]
    #25080074 - 03/21/18 01:23 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

durian_2008 said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keiki

I thought it was interesting that an inflammation hormone, also found in the human body, is responsible for triggering growth, in plant issues.

Growth is also affected, when plants are exposed to anti-inflammation drugs.

Quote:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2862080/Is-ibuprofen-stunting-growth-CROPS-Anti-inflammatory-painkillers-change-lettuces-radishes-grow-study-reveals.html

They looked at ibuprofen, diclofenac, naproxen, tolfenamic acid, meclofenamic acid and mefenamic acid - which are all used to treat arthritis, migraines or menstrual pains.

They found that each of the drugs altered the way the plants photosynthesised, their overall size, their root and shoot length and how they took up water.







Diclofenac ie. voltaren is a really nasty substance.
Have you seen the documentary about diclofenac in India?
They started to give diclofenac to old cows because they were in pain.
They are sacred over there and no one eats them.
So when they died they were put out in nature to be eaten by animals as they always had done.
To make story short, all vultures in whole India died and totally screwed up the ecosystem.
With no vultures other animals got sick, it became a nightmare.
All because of diclofenac witch apperantly is very toxic to all birds.
Check out the documentary it´s intresting.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: Solipsis]
    #25080153 - 03/21/18 02:09 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Solipsis said:
As for the radiation, don't you need a kind of radiation for that produced by radioactive elements which you probably can't and shouldn't buy? No offense but I don't think a layman can or should try to handle such radioactive materials, it's not easily containable and you can't switch it off like using UV-C.



I agree on the "shouldn't" point but there are some radioactive materials that aren't too difficult to obtain. Smoke detectors contain some americium for example.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hahn


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OfflineMateo
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: psi] * 1
    #25080618 - 03/21/18 06:03 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

The problem with smoke detectors are that the americum emit alpha radiation.
Alpha particles are effectively shielded by a few centimeters of air, a piece of paper, or the thin layer of dead skin cells.

So how can we get the alpha radiation into a seed or other plant cells if it is shielded by a few cells, little air or basicly a few atoms of anything?
Do not get americum into the body, then it can be dangerous.

To play around with radiation you must know what you are doing and to google it isn´t enough.
There are other ways one can use than to use dangerous beta or gamma radiation anyway.


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OfflineMateo
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: Mateo] * 1
    #25080638 - 03/21/18 06:18 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

How about to fuse 2 different plant DNAs using tissue culture?
Protoplast fusion.
That has been done, isn´t so hard and you dont need a lab.
I would like to try it if i could, i do have the ethyl glycol that is needed.
But i dont have the knowledge of the precise procedure to go about it.
That can be learned though.

I wonder how many sucessful fuses is needed until one get something that will live and have good results.
Probably very many.


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff *DELETED* [Re: Solipsis]
    #25096884 - 03/28/18 10:49 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

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OfflineSolipsis
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: durian_2008]
    #25097587 - 03/28/18 03:46 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

As far as I know, plants don't have the ligase Cereblon.

Other animals and some protobacteria apparently indeed share homologous proteins with the same binding site as the binding site of thalidomide to cereblon. But that is apparently as far as it goes.

If roundup is known to have epigenetic effects, I wonder if it is known how this pertains to humans and if it wouldn't get the stuff banned even with Monsanto's lobbying.
But yes I guess if you keep it to yourself it's as good a potential mutagen as any? And available at that. You should definitely keep exposure into consideration but I think non-industrial roundup is degraded in about 2 weeks is it not? You need to apply such factors when determining whether you are actually talking about introducing a chemical: it matters whether it is there to stay.
A similar example is pyrethrins which also break down fast. However I don't consider it to be a solution for say weed growers, because inhaling the pyrolysis products of the degradation products may be just as bad, who's to say...

The atavism induced magnetically sounds very interesting but I have no idea if this can be easily applied and what to expect from which plants... that's a lot of research to do first to answer such questions it seems..

I do know that old chemist friends of mine also liked to collect all elements. When I said you can't buy it I meant: probably not very easily. Also combined with this, there are many kinds of radiation and the type and strength needed to mutate plant DNA is not what I expect to come from household appliances. I appreciate the notion that yes you can technically buy some radioactive materials, but I don't count efforts such as extraction silly numbers of appliances like that nuclear boy did because it's not a realistic investment of time and energy in our context.


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OfflineMateo
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: durian_2008]
    #25097632 - 03/28/18 04:08 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Mutations, cross breeding, mixing or fusing of different DNA is one of the most intresting things one can experiment with.
The fact that such low % of the trys will even get something that survive is little hard but what to do.

Why not try X-rays for creating mutations?
You don´t need any dangerous radioactive material for this.
As long you make sure you are you and anybody else isn´t to close when experiments running it should be OK.
X-rays are easily produced with high voltage and a X-ray tube.
Even high voltage, high frequecy arcing produce very much x-rays, im sure these can be used in applications like these.


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OfflineSolipsis
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: Mateo]
    #25097706 - 03/28/18 04:45 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

An X-ray tube is expensive and the radiation may produce more fatal DNA lesions than UV light, so why not just stick to UV? At least you don't need lead shielding and shit for UV? :smile: But you should still keep a distance.

If UV-C is useful, you can use your tube for other sterilization applications as well whereas X-rays are only useful if you have ... osteoporosis? :P


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OfflineMateo
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: Solipsis]
    #25098089 - 03/28/18 07:15 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Well try with UV then.
I would rather try with X-rays but thats just because it intrests me more.
The sun give us some UV and we dont see very much mutations allthough there is some.


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OfflineSolipsis
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: Mateo]
    #25098803 - 03/29/18 05:49 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Sure there are, but most can be repaired or just kill the cell. The most harm / mutation comes from the more high energetic UV which is also blocked most by the atmosphere.

From what I remember reading yesterday, relevant mutations may occur just when DNA is being unwinded, forked apart and copied - I guess this is because while the DNA strands are together the repair mechanisms can use the complementary base pair to glance the correction.

I wonder what this means for shorter intense exposure vs. longer weaker exposure and also if you can compare the exposure to some "LD50" to find some optimum. What I mean is: can the rate of mortality be used as an indicator for the right radiation dosage to get mutations?

Let's try to get some experimental data on this. :smile:


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff *DELETED* [Re: Solipsis]
    #25101609 - 03/30/18 07:56 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

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Invisibleferrel_human
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: durian_2008]
    #25101801 - 03/30/18 09:38 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

I wish i was smarter to understand all these words thrown around. I agree, roundup sucks. Thats about as smart as i got right there.


--------------------
Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: ferrel_human]
    #25102081 - 03/30/18 11:58 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

:blush:

Some of these household chemicals were in the news, notoriously, as war crimes.


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