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Solipsis
m̶a̶d̶ disappointed scientist



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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: durian_2008]
#25106134 - 04/01/18 07:26 AM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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I lived in an anti-squatting situation once in a house with a garden were very little grew in the ground - apparently the previous resident had gotten hold of industrial grade Monsanto herbicide..
I do wonder how history will remember Monsanto much later... perhaps similarly.. I do acknowledge that not all GMOs are necessarily disastrous and I think plenty of them are helping fight global famine. That said, Monsanto is of course shady AF similarly to pharma industry.
From loph thread:
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Zombi3 said: Oops I let them stretch their necks a bit too much 

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Crispy224 said: I've seen a few people on SAB that purposely grew them elongated to resemble columnar cacti
And yeah I guess I am one of those that would like to reserve a bunch of lophs for intentional elongation, what kind of level of lighting causes it without slowing down growth too much? Ambient light in apartment room on the shadow side of the block fine?
I recall that grafted loph with the multiple elongated heads, with the toilet roll - I'd like to see that specimen again.. got a soft spot for strangeness.. That was some piece of work, like art.. i like it. And I mean: it's not like you can't have mostly regular lophs as well.
Those mutants above make me wonder which extra rare mutation types I haven't heard about either? If i had money I'd go for that book Teratopia..
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psi
TOAST N' JAM


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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: Solipsis] 1
#25106213 - 04/01/18 08:09 AM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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Anne Halonium was big on that too. Selecting for individuals that display the most elongation, and then growing them under lighting conditions where they will become elongated but not etoliated (IIRC this would be heavy on red and light on blue).
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,685
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: modern.shaman]
#25107468 - 04/01/18 09:53 PM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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Someone was sending it out, for free.
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Solipsis
m̶a̶d̶ disappointed scientist



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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: durian_2008]
#25110367 - 04/03/18 08:08 AM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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Cheers, psi.. And yeah now that you mention it, I do realize that red light very generally produces elongated growth while blue light produces more fat stocky growth and some cacti growers use blue-heavy light to prevent elongation.
So yea you can use the same principle to do the opposite and use red-heavy on a few as experiment. Haha Anne was/is a curious one (in both senses); regardless of personal stuff, attitudes and that flamewar I at least appreciate her experimental drive. I didn't know she tried to promote elongation, I thought she more generally tried to accellerate growth and elongation or golfballing were side-effects of hydroponics etc.
Does anyone have any concrete plans for any experiments related to mutation, or chimerization for that matter?
About the hybridization: I wonder how one can figure out which species are compatible for this, are there rules of thumb about probability and taxonomy similar to grafting compatibility?
As an example of how it's not just synthetics that can be nasty, Euphorbia are toxic and can even be mutagenic:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2222180815608775
Not sure exactly why the latex itself didn't work, but I could make an extract of my E. Leuconora's leaves. I guess I could try applying it to areoles or apex of young plants at different concentrations? No idea yet what kind of compounds are responsible, would be important to know so that an appropriate solvent/carrier can be chosen.
We can't be the first online to discuss this sort of thing, I'd like some actual experimental data on whatever mutagen or plant actual tests were performed on successfully, preferably not involving (i.e. requiring) tissue culture.
A lot of mutagens have been mentioned - awesome! - but which ones would actually produce viable and/or remotely attractive / interesting plants rather than just screwing them up? 
Twisted growth sounded fascinating.
Edited by Solipsis (04/03/18 08:38 AM)
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psi
TOAST N' JAM


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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: Solipsis]
#25110425 - 04/03/18 08:45 AM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah I think biomass increase was a key focus of hers. With elongated growth you potentially are getting more photosynthetic surface area per unit of biomass, and thus maybe a more rapid rate of biomass increase.
I guess you can also select against elongation tendencies to end up with plants that maintain a more natural look even when they don't get so much light.
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DualWieldRake
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: Solipsis]
#25110432 - 04/03/18 08:52 AM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't think you will have a really high chance of ending up with something artsy (and growing) with random mutations
If you find out what parts exactly do what however it wouldn't be that hard to modify it. Atleast not if you can read/write chinese or otherwise have access to equipment
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Solipsis
m̶a̶d̶ disappointed scientist



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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: DualWieldRake] 1
#25110553 - 04/03/18 09:50 AM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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Fair enough @ random mutations, I guess I was referring to other means of distorting growth which I assume affect hormones and/or other metabolic mechanisms. Regarding drugs in humans: you can cause release of a hormone or neurotransmitter or inhibit/induce it's metabolism/degradation or reuptake.
If tweaking like that in plants causes less of them to die or deform mercilessly, perhaps it is a better strategy. Rather than administering a cytokinin or auxin maybe there are other ways to temporarily change hormonal household and growth like by influencing the metabolism of hormones.
Was thidiazuron (TDZ) already discussed? Apparently it occasionally causes fasciation a.k.a. cresting Well at least in tissue culture. Doesn't seem to be all that harmful to humans either. So what about applying small dosages of that to apex tissue? It's not all that expensive especially if it were shared.
This looks to be an interesting read! https://trinityssr.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/4th-ape.pdf
Edited by Solipsis (04/03/18 09:57 AM)
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Solipsis
m̶a̶d̶ disappointed scientist



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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: Solipsis]
#25154540 - 04/21/18 02:00 AM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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My TBM (f. inermis) keeps pupping everywhere because apparently it is a short version and I keep harvesting them.. now there is one quite low and growing into another part on the opposite side, the pup is sandwiched between them.
I read that pressure on the apex can cause fasciation too so I used a needle with little glass bead at the end to focus the pressure on the apex. Not exactly sure how monstrose growth relates to crest growth, but maybe since it is a TBM it is already closer to fasciation as well.. or is the opposite true in terms of apical dominance and hormonal balance?
In the meanwhile I have also applied some 6-BAP in coco fat on the apex of a couple loph seedlings (I have a whole bunch). It's too bad I am not really sure anymore about the concentration but I think it was 2000 ppm if not 1000 ppm. If necessary I also have a much more dilute aqeous solution or I can make a different one if the solvent needs to be different.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: Solipsis]
#25157386 - 04/22/18 10:37 AM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Solipsis said: Does anyone have any concrete plans for any experiments related to mutation, or chimerization for that matter?
I would make these ideas free, for private use, but want it to be formally protected from corporate exploitation.
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Solipsis said: About the hybridization: I wonder how one can figure out which species are compatible for this, are there rules of thumb about probability and taxonomy similar to grafting compatibility?
These limits were intuitive, and possibly a matter of opinion. An old timer had discussed the breeding of different fruits, to improve the livelihoods of desert Indians. The logic was that stone fruits with rough seeds, would hybridize. Or, with comparable leaf shapes / morphology.
In the oldest version of the word, specie, it is just a label, name, or typology. There are species of coin and specious reasoning.
Some believe that the speciation of animals resulted from unstable hybrids, between incompatible forms.
Crosses are believed to be most possible, at the point when tissues are undifferentiated, or if there is an atavism, back to that primal state.
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Solipsis said: As an example of how it's not just synthetics that can be nasty, Euphorbia are toxic and can even be mutagenic
I think it's interesting to use natural materials. 
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Solipsis said: Not sure exactly why the latex itself didn't work, but I could make an extract of my E. Leuconora's leaves.
Is the active principle more soluble in water or oil, in other words, polar or non-polar?
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Mateo
High on LIFE!



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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: Solipsis]
#25157522 - 04/22/18 11:56 AM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Solipsis said: Does anyone have any concrete plans for any experiments related to mutation, or chimerization for that matter?
Im soon going to start a growlog where i try to mutiply Erythroxylum using tissue culture and micropropagation. It will not be done strictly proffesional and im probably will cut some corners here and there. I might include some experiments with mutations, varigated specimens and different plants as cacti and mitragynas. It´s many things i need to pull it off, even at a experimental level but i have been gathered some needed supplys for some time and are basicly ready to start as soon i have some time to spend.
If these experiments get some good results i might take them a step further and try some more advanced mutation and possible protoplast fusing of different plants. So much intresting stuff one can do within this area. I might also start a tissue culture and micropropagation experimentation thread. Anyone else have any experience within this area?
-------------------- A wise rat has many holes
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durian_2008
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff *DELETED* [Re: Mateo]
#25157536 - 04/22/18 12:00 PM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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Post deleted by durian_2008
Reason for deletion: .
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Solipsis
m̶a̶d̶ disappointed scientist



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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: durian_2008]
#25157551 - 04/22/18 12:07 PM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't think we'll be trumping state of the art genetic engineering and such fields of study anytime soon and we are mostly looking at making some aesthetically pleasing and interesting plants with no real functional advantage to any of this so I think we're cool on the corporate exploitation... Just meant: is anyone actually going to do some of these experiments to try and create mutants, hybrids or chimerae?
The rule of thumb I was talking about is more vaguely defined than taxonomical definitions I would say, even fully appreciating the arbitrary nature. It's just to have at least some idea: grafting working "normally" within a species, usually within the same genus, rarely within the same family, etc.. By the way I may be pretty off remembering the details of what I just referred to, it is just meant as an example to make a point. Am just interested in knowing what would be just considered truly futile with regard to hybridization or chimerization attempts, but I understand that it can be complicated to cover all the things that determine essential compatibility.
If a magnetic field can induce atavisms that could be useful I guess to attempt some crossings.
I wonder about crossing Salvia Divinorum and other Salvia sp. but it is probably pointless to try and make a fertile cross or hybrid for various reasons.
But it would be very cool if there is a way to fuse together cells, could be useful for it.
It does seem interesting to use natural materials but a part of that is just that it can be some arbitrary challenge added. Other than that it seems good to not be prejudiced on the matter.
From an example I found, assuming it is representative.. latex of a particular Euphorbia species was actually found to not be mutagenic or antibiotic but methanolic leaf extract was at highest concentration tested. So I guess a compound at least mostly polar.
Excellent that you will be doing those experiments, Mateo!
From what I understand, in tissue culture no one would actually start from a cell if they can help it.
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Mateo
High on LIFE!



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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: durian_2008]
#25157571 - 04/22/18 12:13 PM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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My plan is to try get some callus growing from Erythroxylum explants. When/if i can acomplish this i move on to next stage and get try get budding/shoot formation and growth. These will be multiplicated and moved on to root formation. Last stages will be aclimating to soil medium and lower humidity. This was very simplified but is the rough way to grow plants using this teknique.
-------------------- A wise rat has many holes
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Feroxx
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: Solipsis] 1
#25157694 - 04/22/18 12:55 PM (5 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Solipsis said:
From an example I found, assuming it is representative.. latex of a particular Euphorbia species was actually found to not be mutagenic or antibiotic but methanolic leaf extract was at highest concentration tested. So I guess a compound at least mostly polar.
So strangely i have read somewhere that people use latex of e. tirucalli to treat cancer
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Solipsis
m̶a̶d̶ disappointed scientist



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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: Feroxx]
#25960171 - 04/28/19 07:03 AM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Feroxx said:
Quote:
Solipsis said:
From an example I found, assuming it is representative.. latex of a particular Euphorbia species was actually found to not be mutagenic or antibiotic but methanolic leaf extract was at highest concentration tested. So I guess a compound at least mostly polar.
So strangely i have read somewhere that people use latex of e. tirucalli to treat cancer
Yeah sometimes compounds are toxic in certain concentrations but medicinal in other (usually lower) concentrations.
Anyway, has anyone been successful at creating weirdness in cacti in any way? Any cool experiments to show?
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MeanGreen
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: Solipsis]
#25960191 - 04/28/19 07:27 AM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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This video might be of interest, they're successfully inducing temporary artificial variegation by injecting the cacti with an unspecified chemical.
-------------------- Trade List
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Solipsis
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: MeanGreen] 1
#25960232 - 04/28/19 08:06 AM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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Thanks that is indeed interesting, especially if the name of such chems can be found.
I'm not done reading this, but it's good so far on these topics! https://artisanplants.com/blogs/news/secret-life-of-plants-2-variegation
Yeah in there they do list some possibilities to chemically induce variegation but it doesn't sound so great. I wonder if those youtube cactacaea review guys used a chloroplast inhibitor, probably no antibiotics i think.
That artisan plant blog seems wonderful, I see they also have a post about TC and one about monstrosity.
Edited by Solipsis (04/28/19 08:27 AM)
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modern.shaman
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: Solipsis] 1
#27752129 - 04/26/22 01:04 PM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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So I'm gonna resurrect this thread since I did a unique graft that actually took however no real growth yet. A mammillaria took to a pepper plant stock. I'm sharing so more people experiment with random shit. I had zero expectations that this graft would work and it may still fail but the fact that it didn't dry out like my other grafts of the same plants and it is actually swollen at the base like with normal cactus grafts has me hopeful. If grow takes place I'll try to graft peyote onto the mammillaria and also peyote directly on the pepper plant.
Due to the size of the scion and completely different stock I'm sure that there will be some genetic transfer which may just completely kill the graft.
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turtle_hermit
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: modern.shaman]
#27752285 - 04/26/22 03:27 PM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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What's up, modern? Been a while. This is pretty wild stuff, didn't know a cactus could be grafted onto anything but Cactaceae.
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modern.shaman
San Mescalito




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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: turtle_hermit] 1
#27752324 - 04/26/22 03:47 PM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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Yea it shouldn't be able to.... maybe the graft will fail but for sure it took sofar from my experience with grafts.
I'm sharing mainly so people start experimenting more. Most people grow plants optimally which I get but there are ALWAYS extra seedlings which people should do experiments on even if no control or not scientific what so ever.
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