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OfflineTheManWithTheHat
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Everything you wanted to know about Chimeras and stuff
    #11010433 - 09/06/09 04:32 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Here are some selected passages, with pages from the book to follow, from Teratopia:

“A large number of grafts are made (1) and, when united, cut across horizontally to expose the maximum area where the two tissues abut (2). All normal shoots that grow out subsequently are nipped out in order to encourage one to arise exactly on the line of the graft (3),  carrying up tissues of both components (4,5). This can then be propagated and selectively pruned to try to obtain the stable periclinical form of the chimera.”

“Mr. Hirao in Japan tells me that he has seen a number of sectorial chimeras of Ariocarpus Kotschubeyanus, Epithelantha Micromeris, Gymnocalycium Denudatum, and G. Michanovii following the grafting on Echinopsis, some of which he went on to describe and illustrate in Shaboten 25: 8-9 1960.”

“a Ubelmannia Pectinifera seedling was grafted on Echinopsis stock. The graft was successful and the scion grew to about 2 cm. After a number of years I noticed the stock had rotted and the rot had also gone into the scion. I managed to save a small piece which I successfully grafted onto a Cereus stock. As it began to grow I realized it was strange and had the color and some of the features of the Uebelmannia but the form of an Echinopsis. Subsequent behavior is totally in line with that of a chimera having a layer of Ubelmannia tissue over a core of Echinopsis. The flowers (which would arise from the meristematic cells below the surface) are like those of Echinopsis. This chimera is stable and reproducible from offsets, so deserves a name: + Uebelechinopsis for the partnership of Uebelmannia and Echinopsis, and 'Treetopper' as a cultivar name for a tophole introduction by the Trees.”

“The frontier between what we find attractive and what repels us as malignant is sometimes quite arbitrary. The “diseased” striped tulips and variegated abutilons have already been mentioned. Cactus growers sooner or later may come across a tumor-like outgrowth on one of their pet plants, often covered in a downy wool or colorful abortive flower buds. I have detached and grafted some of these, and the survivors eventually grew out and reverted to normal growth suggesting that the host cells were outgrowing a pathogen. A dramatic picture gallery of tumors that nobody could love is given by Dubrovsky (2002), who found many of the native cacti in the south of Baja California (Pachycereus Pringlei especially) to be scarred with amorphous corky tumours 2-80cm in diameter; some accompanied by a hemiparastic mistletoe, Phoradendron Diguetianum. He compares them to crown galls produced by Agrobacterium Tumefaciens in non-succulents.













I'll upload some more pages when I get the time/motivation :wink:

For now, enjoy chimeras and stuff :thumbup:


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Re: Everything you wanted to know about Chimeras and stuff [Re: TheManWithTheHat]
    #11012295 - 09/06/09 11:07 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

That was a good read, thanks for the information on chimeras. It is a new realm for me and literature like this is a great help. :thumbup:


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OfflineTheManWithTheHat
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Re: Everything you wanted to know about Chimeras and stuff [Re: karode13]
    #11012715 - 09/07/09 01:00 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

No problemo dude, I'll be uploading as soon as I can, drinking though, so it won't be tonight


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Re: Everything you wanted to know about Chimeras and stuff [Re: TheManWithTheHat]
    #11012718 - 09/07/09 01:00 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

the doc and methadone better check this asap


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Re: Everything you wanted to know about Chimeras and stuff [Re: TheManWithTheHat]
    #11012775 - 09/07/09 01:16 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The Doc is on Ban lottery duty, he should be back in a few days. As for Methadone, I thought he would've been all over this thread by now. :whistling:


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OfflineTheManWithTheHat
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Re: Everything you wanted to know about Chimeras and stuff [Re: karode13]
    #11012808 - 09/07/09 01:27 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

he should have, I got the book for him :tongue:


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InvisibleMethadone
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Re: Everything you wanted to know about Chimeras and stuff [Re: TheManWithTheHat]
    #11014541 - 09/07/09 12:49 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Haha, been busy! Im on it now.. but truthfully the photos are just hurting me.


Thank you 100 times over for posting this, you have confirmed my suspicions and bumped this book to the top of my 'to buy' list :wink:


What I gather from the first paragraph is... The objective is to slice the united stock horizontally leaving a small piece of scion attached, then repeatedly force it to bud and continually trim the buds until you get an adventitious bud formed of chimeral tissues from between the stock and scion..

Did it have a pictorial? Im assuming thats what the numbers are for, corresponding images..

If I am correct about what I just said, one could in theory trim all areoles off of the scion (does he suggest this?) AFTER making the horizontal cut.. and then one could apply a BAP solution to the area between the two and hope for the best.


I dont exactly understand the directions hes giving.. Are you to cut and leave a thin slice of scion, or cut directly through the vascular bundle, leaving tissues of the scion's vascular bundle, and THEN try to get it to form an adventitious bud right out of the remaining vascular tissue?

This is the part I dont understand:
Quote:

“A large number of grafts are made (1) and, when united, cut across horizontally to expose the maximum area where the two tissues abut (2).




Have pics?


I better be ready to spend a few hundred.. Because If I read that book its going to be like a shopping catalog until I settle down.. hehe.

I need this book. Thanks again for posting this, get back to me on the directions in the first paragraph you posted.

BTW, does it mention anything in the book about using radiation on seeds to cause mutation? I have repeatedly read that Gymnocalicium michavonii 'Moon Cactus" is created via treating the seeds with rads, but I cant confirm it. If THIS is possible.. then I must wonder if there are any X-ray technicians with Lophophora seed around here?

:wink:


Thanks again, truly appreciated!



Edit: I did some reading about the questions I had.. I think the only questions remaining now are.. How thin do I cut the scion and do I want to include an areole or not?

I think this will have to wait until spring, I'll have stock ready.

I'll try the BAP when I do it, ill scratch it into the skin right at the fused vascular tissue :wink:

-M


Edited by Methadone (09/07/09 12:55 PM)


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Re: Everything you wanted to know about Chimeras and stuff [Re: Methadone]
    #11016527 - 09/07/09 07:11 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Very cool.  I just put in an interlibrary book request for this book, since our library system here doesn't have it.  I also requested they buy it for our library system :smile:


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OfflineTheManWithTheHat
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Re: Everything you wanted to know about Chimeras and stuff [Re: Methadone]
    #11019407 - 09/08/09 07:15 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

deleted--second post is better


Edited by TheManWithTheHat (09/08/09 08:39 AM)


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OfflineTheManWithTheHat
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Re: Everything you wanted to know about Chimeras and stuff [Re: PoC]
    #11019574 - 09/08/09 08:38 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

There's no pictorial, but I think you probably have to cut it as thin as possible while still maintaining a living layer of the scion

The book doesn't mention anything about x-rays yet from what I've read, but I have done some research on the topic

X-rays are mutagens, if you do a search for mutagens I'm sure you can find a list. Of the ones I know of used, x-rays, electron bombardment, colchicine, methylene chloride and other alkylating agents. I don't know the exact concentration to which the seeds must be exposed, but yeah, the seeds are exposed to them and the DNA is alkylated in the case of alkylating agents or with radiation the DNA is partially destroyed, causing mutations in the resulting plant.

You might not want to try with loph seeds to start, by the way. I hear mutagens cause a lot of seeds to die or fail germination because of the intense stress caused by changing the DNA.


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InvisibleMethadone
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Re: Everything you wanted to know about Chimeras and stuff [Re: PoC]
    #11019664 - 09/08/09 09:20 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I hear these mutagens have desirable effects on the aesthetics, but the plants life expectancy will be shortened dramatically. I've heard this in particular about moon cacti, but cant confirm or contest myself because I dont own a moon cactus.

I need to find time to do some serious learning about this field, I certainly follow the basics but I need to learn more about genetics and biology in general. Its easy enough for me to go and buy these chemicals and follow the directions, but I only have an elementary understanding of the actual processes occurring. Does teratopia have a chapter on the biology/polyploidy/ explanations and illustrations as to whats going on in these plants on a cellular level?

If I ever do try this, I will be using Lophophora seed. I will attempt some of these things, but I would like a better understanding as well. Drop me a PM if you have any suggested reading for me. I also wonder if the alkylating agents shorten the plant life as well, do they also destroy cells or more along the lines of modifying what already exists?

Thanks again

Quote:

PatternOfChaos said:
Very cool.  I just put in an interlibrary book request for this book, since our library system here doesn't have it.  I also requested they buy it for our library system :smile:




You're a lucky bastard hehe, no way I could get that book around here. And If I did, they wouldnt EVER get it back lol.

Nice score PoC, I dont suppose one of you fellas could upload to Demonoid? hehehe, kidding, I dont see how anyone could read E books for more then thirty minutes or so, serious eye strain.

I think the chimeral grafting idea is a winner, especially if I could use BAP to artificially induce several pups at a time. I'll have pachanoi stock ready in spring, its really ready now, but it IS September.. I'm trying to slow down on the surgery. I could also (and likely will) pick up some bulk myrtillocactus/cheap mammillarias or similar,I expect a reasonable mortality rate if I'm going to play Dr. Frankenstein, but I must say in the same breath, I would much rather see a Trichocereus chimera then anything else.

Maybe I could practice just by seeing if I can make a thin slice generic > generic graft form an adventitious bud at all, that would be a good start.

-M


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Re: Everything you wanted to know about Chimeras and stuff [Re: Methadone]
    #11020296 - 09/08/09 11:39 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks mate!!
Well can you tell the name of the book? (maybe some1 asked and you answered i just didnt read all the replies)


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Re: Everything you wanted to know about Chimeras and stuff [Re: dstark]
    #11020341 - 09/08/09 11:48 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Teratopia


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Re: Everything you wanted to know about Chimeras and stuff [Re: Methadone]
    #11020980 - 09/08/09 01:33 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I would graft a full scion, wait till it takes, then cut it to leave like 1/4", after a while, if it looks like it's solid, cut it down some more, and then some more, until it's as thin as you can get it


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Re: Everything you wanted to know about Chimeras and stuff [Re: TheManWithTheHat]
    #11023473 - 09/08/09 07:15 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

TheManWithTheHat said:
I would graft a full scion, wait till it takes, then cut it to leave like 1/4", after a while, if it looks like it's solid, cut it down some more, and then some more, until it's as thin as you can get it





Yeah, the drying process would have to be done carefully as to not over dry the scion..

On that note, my A. Agavoides graft will be going to pachanoi in spring, its gotten quite large (only 6 mo's old) I can leave a sliver of it on the Pereskiopsis and try the BAP, just for some instant gratification. I really think the BAP will improve my chances, cacti seem somewhat reluctant to form adventitious buds on their own. Some coaxing may be in order :wink:

I dont expect this to work, but it will now become common practice for me during the degrafting process. I suppose some direction is better then none, but the chance of a chimeral bud forming must still be really slim.



-M


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