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Solipsis
m̶a̶d̶ disappointed scientist



Registered: 12/28/09
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's- A Reason For Experimenting With Different Stocks [Re: durian_2008]
#24779373 - 11/13/17 07:49 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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I am wildly fascinated by teratopia in cacti and succulents!
Am investigating things related to this left and right and was wondering: if some monstrosity of cacti and succulents is caused by certain microorganisms that produce cytokinins, why can't you just dissolve something like 6-BAP in water using a surfactant and pretty much OD the plant just like such a microorganism would? Or is this just too detrimental on roots etc?
Also interested in soft ethical discussions on this. Personally I think it is worse to make plants truly unhealthy and neglect them, than to alter their growth patterns. The idea that it is bad / unhealthy if it doesn't have its natural shape seems like a projection of what may tend to be true for humans but not for plants. Function is also very different between plants and animals: for a plant viability seems more simple since things like behavior are lacking or at least irrelevant when you are the one to feed and water them anyway. Similarly "misery" seems totally abstract for say a dysfunctional plant or computer when no selfawareness and emotions are in play. Personally I think the domestication of dogs for example involves so much more cruelty (not even talking about abuse of one's pet!) even though people rarely ever think about it like that.
Am also wondering about whether chimerization could be achieved by sterile blending of tissue of two compatible species. I have no idea on what level tissue hybridizes, is it a little like metastasis?
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DualWieldRake
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's- A Reason For Experimenting With Different Stocks [Re: Solipsis]
#24779431 - 11/13/17 08:13 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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It sounds as if you are feeling guilty Solipsis. It's OK as long as your intentions are right :P
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psi
TOAST N' JAM


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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's- A Reason For Experimenting With Different Stocks [Re: Solipsis]
#24779473 - 11/13/17 08:32 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Solipsis said: Am investigating things related to this left and right and was wondering: if some monstrosity of cacti and succulents is caused by certain microorganisms that produce cytokinins, why can't you just dissolve something like 6-BAP in water using a surfactant and pretty much OD the plant just like such a microorganism would?
IIRC to dissolve it in water you need to make the pH basic.
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Solipsis
m̶a̶d̶ disappointed scientist



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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's- A Reason For Experimenting With Different Stocks [Re: psi]
#24780498 - 11/13/17 02:59 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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thnx for your replies
lol no, not guilty I just like to find out what is in or behind opinions and arguments, anyone's including my own.. Dialectics really. Feels better than to just 'agree to disagree'...
If I wanted to apply it superficially I would use lye or something like that but I am not going to water my plants (like cacti) with lye although I guess I don't know if you dilute it (which neutralizes back to pH 7) at what point exactly the 6-BAP precipitates out again. Apparently you can also dissolve it with citric acid, so I will do that. 
But I would use a sort of soap or even HPBCD if I have to.
I am patient but if nobody has info on administering by watering I guess I will have to carefully titrate the dosage. I don't think the typical topical concentrations for branching are useful here (like 2000 PPM though some use more) since there will be a big difference in how much is effectively absorbed how quickly and you spread it throughout the plant.
oops Found an answer though: http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/plantphysiol/103/4/1299.full.pdf
Growth regulators are bound by soil (not sure if that is also true if you use HPBCD though) and can then stimulate bacterial growth apparently... :| drat Spraying it is 
Or grafting onto an IV drip ;P
Edited by Solipsis (11/13/17 03:02 PM)
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Solipsis
m̶a̶d̶ disappointed scientist



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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: modern.shaman] 1
#25045511 - 03/07/18 10:33 AM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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First of all: I love this thread 
Secondly: there seems to be demand for a thread on mutants. I don't know if it would be too confusing if it covers mutants, chimerae, variegation, the whole teratopia?
But can we centralize this, mods?
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff *DELETED* [Re: Solipsis]
#25045846 - 03/07/18 12:47 PM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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Post deleted by durian_2008
Reason for deletion: .
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Solipsis
m̶a̶d̶ disappointed scientist



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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: durian_2008]
#25046082 - 03/07/18 02:26 PM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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The more dangerous a chemical is, the more safety measures you would need to take and some things are of course just irresponsible to begin with... when the risk is just too high IF something were to go wrong.
You can take anything too far, but that doesn't necessarily reflect on very controlled cases. With chems applied to plants, exposure is everything.. to the plant, to you, to the environment.
If you apply a chem topically / systemically to a plant and it will not leech into the earth or anything just like 6-BAP it seems fine if you handle it appropriately. Maybe better than rooting powder which is just another hormone but one which will actually go into the soil.
But anyway: no, I wouldn't dump agent orange or something out of an air balloon in order to try and make a chimera Neither would I mess around with radiation. Pretty much nothing truly "out in the open".. again it's about exposure and risks.
Applying a meiosis inhibitor like colchicin, maybe I would. Serious direct mutagens... err.. probably not / depends on risks and handling / applying etc. I would want no real risk that I would get it on me at a later time or anything like that.
Chemists regularly work with dangerous chemicals, but it involves experience, safety measures and a good idea about exposure to be able to afford that.
I do wonder if you can achieve anything by injecting rather typical plant hormones into the apical meristem, or applying with DMSO.
Just in case this helps with exposure to mods: I'd like to say again that I would like to request that this thread be centralized and modded a bit to be the central mutants thread, cause we need one. ty
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durian_2008
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff *DELETED* [Re: Solipsis]
#25046115 - 03/07/18 02:37 PM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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Post deleted by durian_2008
Reason for deletion: .
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Solipsis
m̶a̶d̶ disappointed scientist



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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: durian_2008]
#25046635 - 03/07/18 04:25 PM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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I wanna say at this point that natural vs chemical discussions / arguments can easily get out of hand. Don't even really know for sure if this is such an issue..
In any case, not really sure what kind of stuff that guy sprays, but I don't see how his work is necessarily comparable to careful use of chemicals such as rooting hormone.
If it's because I was talking about the possibility of spraying 6-BAP: I grow almost nothing out in the open and if I just wanted to spray one plant I could just do it in the bathroom or something and ventilate it properly. My growhouse has a plastic lining though so in general I can just spray in it.
You would use a dilute solution of what? And are you talking about doing meristem tissue culture? That seems like a good method, but I'm not really sure what would be effective chemicals to induce mutations or distort growth.
There is a good chance I am not understanding you entirely, thanks for helping.
There is also possibly a really peculiar way to get "mutant" growth: by creatively using a clinostat with adjustable incline. Seems like a cool experiment to build one, if I have proper space (I can build the machine into the back of my growhouse to save space).
From what I understand, tissue grown on a clinostat tends to 'blob'. So what if you grow a cactus on one and play with varying the incline to tweak the rate of 'blobbing'? I am not sure if this has been done very much 'recreationally'..
Edited by Solipsis (03/07/18 04:27 PM)
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff *DELETED* [Re: Solipsis]
#25046743 - 03/07/18 04:55 PM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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Post deleted by durian_2008
Reason for deletion: .
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Mostly_Harmless
wyrd bið ful aræd



Registered: 05/12/09
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: durian_2008] 1
#25047838 - 03/08/18 03:07 AM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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Mateo
High on LIFE!



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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: Solipsis]
#25049192 - 03/08/18 02:23 PM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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I would sertainly try radiation for creating mutations, if i could do it in a safe way. But i can´t, at least not right now, so it will have to be another way of doing it.
Applying a meiosis inhibitor like colchicin.
Oh yes, love to try this. I just need a place to get Colchicum autumnale, ie autumn crocus seeds, quite many, real cheap. It creates polyploid mutations, i don´t know how this would affect a cactus but it would certainly be intresting to try. And it would not be hard to do as long you can accuire the colchicin or the seeds. It would be easy to keep safe also.
My biggest problem is i have limited time and i don´t want add more to my list unless it´s very revarding.
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durian_2008
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff *DELETED* [Re: Mateo]
#25051475 - 03/09/18 09:18 AM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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Post deleted by durian_2008
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durian_2008
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff *DELETED* [Re: Mateo]
#25065250 - 03/15/18 10:23 AM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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Post deleted by durian_2008
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Micaele
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: durian_2008]
#25065904 - 03/15/18 02:05 PM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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What would you consider to be a large batch? I sowed roughly 250 seeds yesterday. Are the odds for getting one mutant in my favor?
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DualWieldRake
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: Micaele]
#25065929 - 03/15/18 02:15 PM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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Only god, chance, harsh chemicals, radiation, infection and/or inbreeding can decide
I think i've germinated under 1000 seeds so far and got 1 (of many) crested pup on a graft (lopho), 1 starting to melt (bridge), 1 awesome dicho without a cleft between (loph) and 1 bridgesii monstrose.
And a lot of columnar dicho's that effectively just drain on the pere their glued on to twice as fast
Edited by DualWieldRake (03/15/18 04:41 PM)
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Solipsis
m̶a̶d̶ disappointed scientist



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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: DualWieldRake]
#25066108 - 03/15/18 03:34 PM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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Thalidomide? (no offense)
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DualWieldRake
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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: Solipsis]
#25066303 - 03/15/18 04:47 PM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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Not that harsh, more like sulfuric acid bath
Edited by DualWieldRake (03/15/18 05:26 PM)
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: DualWieldRake]
#25066593 - 03/15/18 07:20 PM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keiki
I thought it was interesting that an inflammation hormone, also found in the human body, is responsible for triggering growth, in plant issues.
Growth is also affected, when plants are exposed to anti-inflammation drugs.
Quote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2862080/Is-ibuprofen-stunting-growth-CROPS-Anti-inflammatory-painkillers-change-lettuces-radishes-grow-study-reveals.html
They looked at ibuprofen, diclofenac, naproxen, tolfenamic acid, meclofenamic acid and mefenamic acid - which are all used to treat arthritis, migraines or menstrual pains.
They found that each of the drugs altered the way the plants photosynthesised, their overall size, their root and shoot length and how they took up water.
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naum



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Re: Creating a Cactus Chimera's; Mutations, Crested, Variegated and Lots Of Other Stuff [Re: durian_2008]
#25077299 - 03/20/18 09:46 AM (5 years, 10 months ago) |
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Thalidomide won't work. The molecular pathway thalidomide interrupts is part of animal development not plant development.
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