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Re: Alien Communication [Re: Swami]
    #2793651 -

You mentioned intelligence.

The capacity to acquire and apply knowledge.
The faculty of thought and reason.

Learning is not just a human trait. Our means to apply such knowledge is however.

Are we trying to decipher whether aliens have the ability to communicate, or whether they have the ability to reason or to learn? If they are truely intelligent species, capable of applying thought, why would then even despite the gap not try and communicate?


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What?

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Re: Alien Communication [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2793697 -

Intelligence has nothing to do with what your goals are; only your ability to achieve them. Perhaps a visiting alien might desire water or uranium or diamonds and our existence would have no interest to them at all.

How much time do you spend trying to communicate with ants?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Alien Communication [Re: Swami]
    #2793740 -

Quote:
Intelligence has nothing to do with what your goals are; only your ability to achieve them



so.. if the goal was to communicate, wouldnt intelligence and learning bear a great importance on effective communication?

Eventually the aliens would have to contend with humans in some form.. aye? Unless they were so powerful they could by pass our physical bodies and steal the uranium and diamonds from the earth, without having to interact with us.

Ive tried before, but it didnt work too well, so i dont try too much. My main form of communication is very direct... to the point... *stomp*... or *move* <--- action!


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What?

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Re: Alien Communication [Re: Swami]
    #2793835 -

Once again, definitions are very important and I see several different usages of "communication" already in this thread...

Exactly what "communication" are we talking about? Everything in the Universe communicates with everything it possibly can, in a variety of forms. The sun communicates with the Earth by sending photons to it (Earth). The Earth (or, more exactly, the particles which it and its atmosphere are composed of) responds to this communication by changing it's temperature. In effect, all four forces of nature act as communication channels between spatially separated particles (and the objects they make up). Human verbal language is a complex form of this very basic communication exchange, though still only consists of a system to create a message, and a separate system to interpret the message.

Then it is pointless to say that communication could not happen between humans and an alien species. Communication is a given. The question to ask is: what would each species make out of the received communication? How would we interpret the messages we receive, and how will they interpret us?

I don't think any lifeform advanced enough to possibly make contact with a lifeform from another planet could do so without having physics and math to describe the functioning of the Universe. Physics probably isn't any different in other galaxies than it is here on Earth (if it is all our science is horribly wrong), so we could surely use the Universe itself as a base to build a proper interpretation of eachother.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Alien Communication [Re: trendal]
    #2793874 -

I notice that we have shifted from an alien life-form to a space-faring life-form with no transistion as if the two were interchangeable.

I would define the communication that we are talking about as a significant exhange of ideas beyond basic survival needs and acknowledement of existence.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Alien Communication [Re: Swami]
    #2793887 -

I would define the communication that we are talking about as a significant exhange of ideas beyond basic survival needs and acknowledement of existence.

Ahh, much better. Though I must ask: what is the point in asking about communication that would never even have the chance to occur? If we can't communicate beyond the basics with even terrestrial life-forms, of course we will not be able to communicate with alien life-forms that haven't even evolved their own form of "significant exchange of ideas"! If you restrict it to only what we would consider (with only ourselves as comparison) "advanced" life-forms capable of a structured language between themselves, there still can be no communication at all unless one or both develop an understanding of the electromagnetic force and how to manipulate it. That requires mathematics and physics, and that alone could give us a groundpoint for communication.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Alien Communication [Re: trendal]
    #2793901 -

there still can be no communication at all unless one or both develop an understanding of the electromagnetic force

That constraint makes little sense. The humans of a few hundred years ago (and some cultures today) were able to communicate quite well without an understanding of electromagnetism. Most here do not understand electromagentism. We might just as well shut down this forum until we are all degreed physicists.

Dolphins and whales apparently have their own language, yet we have yet to make any real inroads in understanding their clicks and whistles.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Alien Communication [Re: Swami]
    #2793907 -

My intent was that we could not communicate with an alien species unless (a) we travelled there or they travelled here, or, (b) we both learned to use em fields for technological communication and so could send messages to eachother.

Dolphins and whales apparently have their own language, yet we have yet to make any real inroads in understanding their clicks and whistles.

To my knowledge, neither species has learned any form of mathematics or fundamental physics... :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Alien Communication [Re: Swami]
    #2793990 -

"One cannot use the language of the butterfly to communicate with the caterpillar."




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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Alien Communication [Re: Swami]
    #2794089 -

Quote:
Sharks have evolved for 50,000,000 years. Go tell a great white not to bite you.



Sorry I thought we were talking about alien species that were similar to us in the respect that they create artifacts, have some form of society and science etc etc

To say that we would definitely never be able to have meaningful communication is ridiculous. You simply cannot know this. You only have a small understanding of a small part of our current level of scientific knowledge. Therefore how can you possibly know what science will or wont make possible over the next few centuries?


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Alien Communication [Re: GazzBut]
    #2794128 -

original premise:

No, I am talking about life-forms from other planets that we have yet to meet on the physical plane.

I contend that no matter the intelligence, our frames of reference will be so radically different that no real communication will be possible.

Sorry I thought we were talking about alien species that were similar to us in the respect that they create artifacts, have some form of society and science etc etc
Apology accepted. Termites leave artefacts in the form of concrete mounds and have society, yet we cannot communicate with them.

an alien species that were similar to us
Similar as in having a common frame of reference? Alieness in one major sense means dissimilarity. How similar must they be ? Do they have to communicate with air vibrations, have spacecraft, our approximate size? If they are too disimilar will we even recognize them?

To say that we would definitely never be able to have meaningful communication is ridiculous. You simply cannot know this.
*Points to blue turban with the giant sapphire* The Swami knows all.

Science *blah blah blah*...technology *blah blah blah*...

Please explain how any possible invention is going to give us a common frame of reference (if there is not one) which is the basis for all communication?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Alien Communication [Re: Swami]
    #2794215 -

"Next..." :smirk:

this debate is pointless.  no matter what any human thinks or does, an alien may not understand.  period.


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose

Edited by CleverName (06/15/04 08:00 AM)

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Re: Alien Communication [Re: Swami]
    #2794390 -

lets go back 200 years ago and listen to our ancestors:

Grandpa swami: "people will never be able to communicate instanly around the world in seconds"

Grandpa gazzbut: "You cant say that..you dont know what science will be able to come up with"

Grandpa swami: "Name one possible invention that could allow us to do that"

Grandpa gazzbut scratches head "hmmm how am i supposed to second guess a technology 200 years ahead of what I know??"

Back to the present day I would say an empathphone may be possible in the future which allows us to experience another organisms "reality".

Anyway, there is almost bound to be a planet very similar to ours where life has evolved from the same dna helix. That being the case there is every chance that once we are over the language barrier meaningful communication will be possible.

Your original premise might more accurately be stated as "It  MAY be the case that meaningful communication with SOME  alienlife forms will not be possible due to no common frame of reference or no means of establishing a common frame of reference. However, at this time, the validity of this statement remains indeterminate.

:grin:


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Alien Communication [Re: Swami]
    #2794825 -

I contend that no matter the intelligence, our frames of reference will be so radically different that no real communication will be possible

This is the point I don't agree with, specifically. I think that, given enough intelligence on both sides, communication is inevitable.

lease explain how any possible invention is going to give us a common frame of reference (if there is not one) which is the basis for all communication?

Again: any form of technological advancement which would enable a species to communicate over a distance would require an understanding of the fundamental forces, or at least the EM force, which requires mathematics to describe.

And that, is your "basis". :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Alien Communication [Re: Swami]
    #2795148 -

Smoke some DMT and tell me there is no language to communicate with other conscious entities...


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"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho

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Re: Alien Communication [Re: trendal]
    #2795557 -

I notice that both you and Gazz tried to inconspicuously dodge my very clear point about sex and societal/cultural influence. Please re-read and comment.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Alien Communication [Re: ergot]
    #2795571 -

Smoke some DMT...
False assumption.

It never ceases to amaze me how those who think they are somehow more tuned- in have a near-100% failure rate when "doing a reading on the Swam's life and activities." You'd think at least one "spiritual tripper" would be able to get at least one correct.

... and tell me there is no language to communicate with other conscious entities...
There is no language to communicate with other conscious entities. Happy now?

Talking with internal imagery is like a 6 year-old talking to an imaginary friend.

Now, your mission is communicate the DMT realm to another human who has never tripped so that he understands it. It cannot be done.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Alien Communication [Re: Swami]
    #2795739 -

I havent dodged anything. I dont think these things would prevent meaningful communication with SOME alien lifeforms at some point in the future. I agree there maybe SOME alien lifeforms whose very form and mode of existence prevents us from having meaningful communication.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Alien Communication [Re: GazzBut]
    #2795799 -

When you take an alien out to a bar for a beer and say "Check out that hottie!" and he snips her arm off with his mandibles and starts munching. You gasp in horror and he looks at you vacantly with his third-eye. A series of wing rubbings and pincer clicks causes a message to appear on your inter-species translator, "Didn't you say that you like eating women?"


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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (06/16/04 01:18 AM)

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Re: Alien Communication [Re: Swami]
    #2795941 -

Swami said:
Smoke some DMT...
False assumption.

It never ceases to amaze me how those who think they are somehow more tuned- in have a near-100% failure rate when "doing a reading on the Swam's life and activities." You'd think at least one "spiritual tripper" would be able to get at least one correct.

... and tell me there is no language to communicate with other conscious entities...
There is no language to communicate with other conscious entities. Happy now?

Talking with internal imagery is like a 6 year-old talking to an imaginary friend.

Now, your mission is communicate the DMT realm to another human who has never tripped so that he understands it. It cannot be done.


The "internal imagery" is just as "real" as my external imagery... so, yes, if I believe I am successfully communicating with you... I can assume the same for the entities encountered while on DMT.

-ergot


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"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho

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