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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Alien Communication
    #2778173 - 06/09/04 04:26 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

For a moment let's forget the idea of aliens as demi-gods and the inter-dimensional telepathic model claimed to be in touch with select human beings. Can we do that?

No, I am talking about life-forms from other planets that we have yet to meet on the physical plane.

I contend that no matter the intelligence, our frames of reference will be so radically different that no real communication will be possible.

Let's look at our own planet for a start (as that is all we know at this point). The further one goes from one's age group, the more difficult communication is; the further one goes culturally, the more difficult the communication. Hell, look at the Middle East mess. Deep communication seems to be precluded by cultural differences. What about the difference in time, as in technological development? Can you imagine bringing someone from even a few hundred years ago into the present day?

Even stepping outside our species, attempting to establish repoire with creatures that share over 95% of our DNA is practically impossible. We have some small success at the very lowest levels with dolphins, dogs, cats, and chimps, but certainly no exchange of ideas.

There are examples of intelligent human twins who establish their own language and are unable to communicate with others. Some primitive tribes communicate by whistling and only rudimentary ideas may be exhanged with speaking peoples.

How much more of an obstacle would it be with creatures who do not communicate verbally, have a different physiology, history and motivations. We cannot depiher whale clisk nor insect whirrings.

The problem with virtually all sci-fi aliens is that they are not nearly alien enough; they are exaggerated pictures of elements of ourselves.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblepsyka
Praetorian
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Posts: 1,652
Re: Alien Communication [Re: Swami]
    #2778302 - 06/09/04 05:13 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I dont know, man. I recognize constants in the behaviors of animals and if my cat desire to communicate with me I'm sure we would eventually find some central medium in which to communicate. Communication takes two, not one.

Peace.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Alien Communication [Re: psyka]
    #2778311 - 06/09/04 05:17 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Communication between different species and paradigms requires BOTH parties to meet in the middle. You don't teach a dolphin english or sign language, you find the common ground.

Most aliens are just evolved humans anyway. And I talk to animals. Not with words.


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OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

Registered: 08/26/02
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Re: Alien Communication [Re: Swami]
    #2778585 - 06/09/04 06:53 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

i think you make a valid point. but i think that higher intelligent species (considering the aliens to be so, and homo sapien) could possibly communicate through color, smell, gesture, picture, music, but most importantly math. right?

math probably has to be universal to intelligent space traveling beings. all the other communications that i mentioned, save math, is ify. but im pretty sure math has to be a constant. am i wrong?

even if our intelligence seems prehistoric to them, the little we are aware of could be used, i think.

we can communicate with other animals, but it takes some practice. so maybe with some practice we can communicate to other beings. although i understand your points, and it seems true that we have trouble even communicating with each other, sometimes.


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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Offlinejono
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Registered: 05/11/02
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Re: Alien Communication [Re: Swami]
    #2779028 - 06/09/04 09:19 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I think you make an interesting point.

But I do wonder if you can see that the very point you are making could be used to justify the validity of things like crop circles...


Jono.


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Our problem results from acting like cowboys on a limitless frontier when in truth we inhabit a living spaceship with a finely balanced life-support system." David C. Korton


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Alien Communication [Re: Swami]
    #2780074 - 06/10/04 03:44 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

At first, the differences would be too different, yes, but with time we would surely learn to understand them, as they learn to understand us. No matter the differences, our two species must agree on the forces of nature. I don't think physics work any different in another galaxy than they do here :wink:


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BTC - 1KqrSHZ1C3NsQP4g3PkHhppBnhdgyXr6sB


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Alien Communication [Re: Shroomism]
    #2780995 - 06/10/04 11:59 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Most aliens are just evolved humans anyway.



Most humans are evolved humans too.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Alien Communication [Re: Swami]
    #2781062 - 06/10/04 12:19 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I would disagree. Although i would agree we would find it hard to communicate with an intelligent species in the same stage of evolution as us but as this stage of evolution seems to exclude any meaningful space exploration just yet that is not likely to happen.

Quote:

The further one goes from one's age group, the more difficult communication is; the further one goes culturally, the more difficult the communication. Hell, look at the Middle East mess. Deep communication seems to be precluded by cultural differences. What about the difference in time, as in technological development? Can you imagine bringing someone from even a few hundred years ago into the present day?





There are all examples with obvious exceptions. Beside,s go back in time and you will find the opportunities and success of meaningful communication between these groups were far less than they are today. This means our ability to communicate with more diverse groups IS actually improving. Some people have reportedly demonstrated meaningful inter-species communication. Fast forward this process, aided by technology and increased human awareness and I think it is highly likely we would find a way to achieve meaningful communcation with intelligent alien life.


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Always Smi2le


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Alien Communication [Re: GazzBut]
    #2782566 - 06/10/04 06:29 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

The great majority of our songs are about love and sex. It the aliens reproduced asexually, they would NEVER understand these expressions. Practically all fictional books and movies revolve around some form of conflict. If they were not true individuals, but from a hive mind where war or fighting was non-existent; they would never be able to understand our literature, our history, our sports, nor our politics. If they did not make interpretive representations of the world, our artistic representation would have no meaning for them. If they were photosynthetic creatures or ate soil, the concept of food preparation would make no sense. I could go on and on and these are merely physical activities.

No matter the technology nor the intelligence, without a common frame of reference, no communication would be possible.

If they were some form of gaseous creature that was miles across, we might not even recognize one another as intelligent beings.

Even on our own planet, how can we be sure that giant redwoods are not intelligent and "talking" to each other? Look at cuttlefish who communicate with color patterns. Can we decipher their meaning? No.

As to current interspecies communication, it occurs on only the most rudimentary levels; no ideas are shared, and may never progress pass that. Fetch that ball and tell me when you are hungry is about the level. With chimps, who are almost identical to us genetically and share a common ancestry, we can go a tiny bit further.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineMuppet
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Re: Alien Communication [Re: Swami]
    #2782585 - 06/10/04 06:40 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

but who's to say there aren't any other 'humans' out there as well



..........

Thus Spake Muppet


--------------------


:craven:  Ravings of a Madman  :craven:


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InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
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Re: Alien Communication [Re: Swami]
    #2782600 - 06/10/04 06:50 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I have thought of this from a young age, that humans have always thought of aliens as altered earth lifeforms, such as huge toxic spiders or humans with an extra line across their forehead, when the truth would seem to be that if life evolved in a completely different type of environment than us, we may not even recognize it as life. The possibilites are against humans that the aliens would even be able to communicate- there are too many aspects in its evolution that could vastly differ from us. What if the alien perceives a million years as a human would perceive a millisecond? What if they think in many more dimensions? Indeed, what if they exist on different directions? The possibilities are more than the human mind could even imagine. However, assuming the universe is tremendously large, then there are the possibilities that, though many more species may have evolved differently from us, there may be a tiny percentage that evolved in a similar manner to earthlings, and we could attempt communication with these if they are intelligent enough and share a common sense with us.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Alien Communication [Re: Ravus]
    #2782624 - 06/10/04 06:59 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

What if the alien perceives a million years as a human would perceive a millisecond?

I just got a chill. I was going to put that exact thought into my post. *cue spooky music*


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Alien Communication [Re: Swami]
    #2782653 - 06/10/04 07:07 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Which proves I'm a psychic. I believe someone owes me $20,000?  :wink:


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Alien Communication [Re: Ravus]
    #2782667 - 06/10/04 07:13 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Hold still for a minute whilst I telepathically transmit the money to you.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

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Re: Alien Communication [Re: Swami]
    #2782915 - 06/10/04 09:21 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

arent some of our bacteria or viruses from outerspace? actually, now that i think about it, we could never know if they were, could we?


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Alien Communication [Re: Swami]
    #2791722 - 06/14/04 08:22 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

As I said I dont think it could happen at our current stage of evolution. Are you saying it could never happen?


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Always Smi2le


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Alien Communication [Re: GazzBut]
    #2791723 - 06/14/04 08:26 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Stage of evolution has no bearing on frame of reference.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Registered: 07/25/00
Posts: 928
Re: Alien Communication [Re: Swami]
    #2791792 - 06/14/04 10:15 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Fetch that ball and tell me when you are hungry is about the level.



i felt a little sad when i read this.
have you never had a pet? one you cared for from birth to death?

communication doesn't have to be in english. think of how much we can communicate with body language...penn & teller?
what was this thread about again...aliens?
so, do you believe in aliens, swami? following the principles of semiotic analysis, you seem quite keen.
well, gotta love spunk!


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: Alien Communication [Re: mr crisper]
    #2791814 - 06/14/04 10:37 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

i felt a little sad when i read this.
have you never had a pet? one you cared for from birth to death?

Your psychic (or analytical) powers, like most here, are severely lacking. Even I am amazed at how often posters are totally wrong; worse than chance actually.

Have you had a pet? When you tried verbally, telepathically or with body language to tell Snowball that the medicine that you were going to give it was for it's own good; I would bet heavily that it still resisted and squirmed when you tried to administer it. Yes or no?

so, do you believe in aliens, swami?
I made no comment one way or the other. I believe in the possibility of life on other planets.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Alien Communication [Re: Swami]
    #2791823 - 06/14/04 10:49 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Damnit Swami you woke me up again.. what have I told you about sending telepathic messages to me while I'm sleeping  :tongue:


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