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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The aliens are coming! [Re: chunder]
    #2274646 - 01/26/04 12:32 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

chunder said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I just want to make it clear that I have no problem with you or what you're saying. It's the total aversion to skepticism that people have toward your ideas.




Whats wrong with people sharing ideas and listening to others' ideas without blatantly displaying doubt and skepticism? I cannot say that I have personally experienced communication with aliens, but I'm interested in what Shroomism has to say about it. He's proven to me that he is a truly compassionate and good individual, and I have no reason to believe that he would make this stuff up to entertain himself.



I don't believe he's just making this stuff up. I know he's above that. But just because he believes it doesn't make it true. Believe me, I'm just as fascinated with his ideas as you are. But that doesn't mean I'm going to just accept them at face value. Skepticism does NOT mean disbelief. It means suspension of belief. I'm not going to dismiss Shroomism's ideas as bullshit, but I'm not going to swallow them whole without requiring any further evidence, either.

Quote:

I listen to what he says and then I think about it, and compare it to my own experiences in life. I often find parallels, underlying threads of truth that apply to my reality-tunnel. This is what sharing information is about. Its not about listening to what someone has to say, comparing it to your own view of reality, and then totally agreeing or totally disagreeing with that person. Its about listening to what that person has to say, and LEARNING from it.



I completely agree. But that doesn't exclude questioning these ideas. You should question ALL ideas, including your own. That's the only way you can really learn.

Quote:

Whether you learn that there is truly a mysterious kind of communication going on between yourself and a subconscious voice (be it alien, be it Gaia, be it God, or be it the Craziness...) or whether you learn that your own reality doesn't benefit from applying other's advice and thinking about their experiences, you still should give what others say a chance, without jumping on the silly "show me EVIDENCE" bandwagon.



I do give it a chance. I have not once said that Shroomism's ideas are false. But what's wrong with wanting evidence? If a Christian comes up to me and says I have to be a Christian as well or I'll burn for eternity, should I take that at face value? Or should I question it?

Quote:

There are times and places when an explicit and earth-shattering PROOF is simply not going to be available....like EVERY MOMENT OF EVERY DAY IN EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE. (Life isn't provable.)



I'm well aware of that. Please see my "You Don't Know Shit!" thread.

Quote:

This thread is one of those places, obviously. Its a thread about ALIENS. If there was "proof" that would satisfy your definition of it, then it would have been laid out years ago. The title of the thread itself tells me that its going to be a place for openminded discussion about the Mysteries, not yet ANOTHER thread where people who follow the Science Dogma battle against the people who follow the Mystic Dogma.



I said I wanted "evidence," not "proof." Please educate yourself on the difference between these two things. Also, if you followed some of my other threads, you would see that I do not adhere to a strictly scientific view of the universe. I believe in a higher power and the oneness of all things. I do not have proof of these things, but I have subjective evidence in the form of personal experience.

Quote:

What I'm interested in is Truth, and I feel that real Truth doesn't have to be validated by a system of WORDS and GUIDELINES that were constructed by men with limited reality-tunnels. If something feels right, and helps me to deal with some problem or expand my options when I'm trying to help someone else, then I label that thing as Truthful. Its just a label, afterall, an organizational principle that helps us to abstract.



I am interested in Truth as well, and Truth is not the same as fact. I do not question the Truth of Shroomism's thread--that we should learn to live in harmony, etc. I merely question the factual assertions about information being communicated by extraterrestrial lifeforms.

Quote:

I'm not angry or anything, the message board is a free place. You're free to post wherever you want about whatever you want. But I sometimes get tired of people feeling the need to repeatedly rehash the same old ignorant disputes, when we've learned OVER and OVER that they do no good, lead no where, and simply detract from the potential of the thread, IMHO.



What is ignorant about wanting evidence? It would be foolish to accept everything at face value, would it not?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: The aliens are coming! [Re: silversoul7]
    #2274656 - 01/26/04 12:37 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: The aliens are coming! [Re: silversoul7]
    #2274655 - 01/26/04 12:37 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

It is not ignorant to want evidence.. that is very....human of you.
And I will say that when the time is right in your life, the subjective evidence will become blatantly apparent to you.
Question what I say, please! Don't believe anything I have ever said unless you experience it yourself and feel the same way!

I just want to get people to think...and maybe argue a little :smirk:


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Invisiblesimplemachine
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Re: The aliens are coming! [Re: ]
    #2274702 - 01/26/04 12:53 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)


Science is no longer a method, it has become the dogma of rationalism.



SM


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Invisiblesimplemachine
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Re: The aliens are coming! [Re: simplemachine]
    #2274712 - 01/26/04 12:58 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

And I will say that when the time is right in your life, the subjective evidence will become blatantly apparent to you.





SM


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Edited by simplemachine (01/26/04 12:59 PM)

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The aliens are coming! [Re: simplemachine]
    #2274734 - 01/26/04 01:10 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

simplemachine said:

Science is no longer a method, it has become the dogma of rationalism.




Its still a method the last time I checked.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: The aliens are coming! [Re: simplemachine]
    #2274765 - 01/26/04 01:24 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

simplemachine said:

Science is no longer a method, it has become the dogma of rationalism.





--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The aliens are coming! [Re: simplemachine]
    #2274802 - 01/26/04 01:42 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Science IS a method.
I'll admit that in some ways I am a little dogmatic about science over religion. Anyone who embraces a good idea is going to become dogmatic about it.

There are people who embrace ideas that are based on science dogmatically. There are scientists who refuse to seriously consider new scientific discoveries that prove previous theories. The difference is, when the evidence in science contradicts previous ideas, a huge fraction of the scientific community takes it seriously, and it's not long before it becomes a mainstream idea.

In religion and other kinds of faith, there is no way determine whether or not ideas contradict one another. Even when ideas are shown to be incorrect, religions often persist believing.

How often does religion or spirituality claim to be able to do astonishing things? Teleportation, magical transformations, the ability to fly... how often have you REALLY seen this? Have you ever seen anyone able to use their telekinesis for anything other than a simple demonstration?

How many times have you seen science applied to seriously increase our abilities?

We can fly, we can replace limbs with near perfect prosthetics, we can explore the bottom of the ocean, or land on the moon, we can instantly send massive amounts of information to any place on the planet with extreme reliability. We can destroy an entire city with the push of a button.

Science can have a dark side, it in itself doesn't have any rules. Luckily, most humans come with built in empathy, we desire to protect one another. Most people consider pursuing the end of human suffering to be a worth ideal, and many of our social rules, and laws reflect this.

Human nature isn't perfect though, science has been used for some pretty negative things, then again, so has religion.

The reason science has been so much more destructive is simple: It works.

That's my salespitch for science.
I'm sorry if any of this is just slopism, I'm a bit stoned.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleTrueBrode
Stranger

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 287
Re: The aliens are coming! [Re: Phluck]
    #2274821 - 01/26/04 01:50 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Which is exactly why I said that you don't conclude that. If you compare the possibilities with what has been known to happen in the past, we can see solid evidence of chemicals and whatnot affecting the brain and causing hallucinations. We have never seen any evidence of aliens causing this. In order to take this posibility seriously we must introduce a new and possibly non existant entity. I could claim that a mad scientist is beaming these ideas into Shroomism's head for his own amusement, and that possibility has an equal amount of evidence as Shroomism's. While the other possibility, that it's simply an illusion created by his brain, is something that has been demonstrated in the past.

I didn't say aliens beamed the stuff into shroomism's head nor anything like that. I didn't say that I believe in what shroomism is saying, nor did I even say I disagree with you about what altered states probably mean- you have severe reading comprehension problems. 

You said altered states probably/don't mean anything spiritual, because it's been proven that it's just chemicals/electric impulses affecting the brain, causing it to perceive things differently.  You claim that the change of the brain during these states is some kind of proof/probability that altered states are just the brain malfunctioning, reinterpreting or changing the way it normally perceives this world.  Wow, great opinion.  Unfortunately, that?s all it is until someone like shroomism comes forth with predictions or contradictions that are proven false in this world (which you didn?t say in your initial post).  Still, it is impossible to prove either way, what exactly transpires in those states, which you claimed to understand because you knew HOW the altered state takes place.

We don't know for sure, but like I said, we can use probability based on past examples. It's also known that people often have such experiences, and the information they're given contradicts the information others are given. Two contradicting statements cannot both be correct. So we know that not all of the information that comes entirely from the mind can be correct.

Again, this is your own logic.  No science here.  You may want to look into what probability means, because apparently, you have no idea.   

I never said that it definately would not, but when there is a more probable explanation available, it should probably be given greater consideration than the improbable one.

Your argument is for people that believe this world is all there is, and you?re never going to be able to prove to shroomism that his experience (if it took place) was an illusion of the mind.  Nor does probability mean anything in a field that we know so little about.  Our current understanding of the geography of the mind is very limited to make statements like that- it's like saying that the Earth is probably flat because by all indications the piece you're standing on seems that way. 

Does it fucking matter? Definately not.

If you're getting all spazzy about spelling maybe you should take a few deep breaths and count to ten. This isn't a fight, it's a discussion. I spelled a word wrong, it's nothing to get angry about.


:lol: you're the one that seems to be a little hot under the collar.  if you like mispelling the word just say so.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: The aliens are coming! [Re: simplemachine]
    #2274850 - 01/26/04 02:04 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

It should be pointed out that most of the "dogmatic" science being done these days is in the "fringe science" group, what Richard Feynman refered to as "cargo cult science" (thanks, Seuss!).

In this "science" we see countless examples of so-called "scientists" changing their experiments to get the desired results. They are not happy when an experiment shows them results they didn't expect...so they change the experiment to get the results they want and then ignore the duty to explain their failures.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The aliens are coming! [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2274888 - 01/26/04 02:20 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

"I didn't say aliens beamed the stuff into shroomism's head nor anything like that. I didn't say that I believe in what shroomism is saying, nor did I even say I disagree with you about what altered states probably mean- you have severe reading comprehension problems."

I never said that you believed that.

"You said altered states probably/don't mean anything spiritual, because it's been proven that it's just chemicals/electric impulses affecting the brain, causing it to perceive things differently. You claim that the change of the brain during these states is some kind of proof/probability that altered states are just the brain malfunctioning, reinterpreting or changing the way it normally perceives this world."

I never said anything about proof. At all. There is no proof that all spiritual phenomena are caused by brain activity, but there happens to be a bit of evidence to support that idea. (Edit: The evidence is that brain activity has been shown to cause all kinds of thoughts and sensations. Since it causes one kind of brain activity, this increases the probability that it causes another. No other possibilities have been presented other than the "soul" or "free will", but these are never really defined.) The difference between this an Shroomism's, or anyone else's theory, is that there is no evidence, only the claim they are making.

"Your argument is for people that believe this world is all there is, and you?re never going to be able to prove to shroomism that his experience (if it took place) was an illusion of the mind."

I know I'll probably never convince him, but I'm not necessarily trying to, I'm presenting my opinion just like he is. I know that there is much to be experienced beyond the outer world. I've experienced a lot of wild and fascinating things myself, but I don't see how these things can be perceived as truth. The information I've gotten contradicts the information other people have received, and the things that can be tested.

When I was 16, I had a revelation, I learned exactly what the afterlife would be like. I knew exactly what it was. About a year later, after seriously considering it, I realized I had no way of knowing for sure if that actually was the afterlife. Why did I assume that my revelation was truth? The only evidence I had was that I believed it.

Science offers actual evidence.

"you're the one that seems to be a little hot under the collar."

"you have severe reading comprehension problems."

"You may want to look into what probability means, because apparently, you have no idea."

I haven't insulted you, or said anything nasty whatsoever. If you actually want people to listen to you, you have to be civil. Insulting someone usually just pisses them off and turns threads into screaming matches. If you want to have a discussion, I'd be glad to, just calm down.

Also:





prob?a?bil?i?ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prb-bl-t)
n. pl. prob?a?bil?i?ties
The quality or condition of being probable; likelihood.
A probable situation, condition, or event: Her election is a clear probability.

The likelihood that a given event will occur: little probability of rain tonight.
Statistics. A number expressing the likelihood that a specific event will occur, expressed as the ratio of the number of actual occurrences to the number of possible occurrences.




What did you think I meant by probability?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

Edited by Phluck (01/26/04 02:25 PM)

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: The aliens are coming! [Re: Phluck]
    #2274917 - 01/26/04 02:31 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

well at least I can provoke intellectual debate :smile:


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: The aliens are coming! [Re: Shroomism]
    #2275413 - 01/26/04 05:29 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

"well at least I can provoke intellectual debate"

:grin:

"In this "science" we see countless examples of so-called "scientists" changing their experiments to get the desired results. They are not happy when an experiment shows them results they didn't expect...so they change the experiment to get the results they want and then ignore the duty to explain their failures."


I haven't seen this but that means doesn't mean it hasn't happened.  people who do that don't even know why they are doing what they are doing. 

yeah sience is a method, but we need those presuppositions.  WE need our own definitions so we can be totally clear (and in most cases they are).  they have a different defintion of work than the normal definition, and there is a reason for that.  jsut like thy have their own definition of energy.

just like they have their own definition of power

just like they have their own deifnition of force

just like they have their own definition of momentum


it's all good. any proof in science involves math, otherwise how can you proove it?  you can't proof in science based solely on observation.

I think maybe it would be a good mindset that while yes science works very welll, it isn't the say all in life. 

this is why philosophy is so cool. 

at least that's my opinion anyway


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Anonymous

Re: The aliens are coming! [Re: Phluck]
    #2275710 - 01/26/04 07:34 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

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InvisibleGalvie_Flu
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Re: The aliens are here. [Re: Shroomism]
    #2275836 - 01/26/04 08:38 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Howdy!

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
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Re: The aliens are coming! [Re: Shroomism]
    #2276101 - 01/26/04 10:19 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I can't believe some of the hateful things being said here...

at least you have the ability to take things in stride

many people, including myself, have challenged your wacky ideas in the past and not once have you lashed out.

I guess maybe you're secure enough in what you believe that you could take a little scrutiny without getting too worked up.

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InvisiblethePatient
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Re: The aliens are coming! [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2276452 - 01/27/04 01:09 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

:thumbup:


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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