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Guns Save Lives * 2
    #25086638 -

Great read here https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsieh/2018/03/20/any-study-of-gun-violence-should-include-how-guns-save-lives/#4d3628ef5edc
Quote:
Any Study Of 'Gun Violence' Should Include How Guns Save Lives

Paul Hsieh ,  CONTRIBUTOR
I cover health care and economics from a free-market perspective. 

After the Parkland, Florida shootings, some are calling for more government research into “gun violence.”

Currently, the federal government’s Centers For Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) is restricted by Congress from using tax money to promote gun control (although not from conducting research into gun-related violence). Some legislators want to remove this funding restriction. Separate from the federal government, the state of California has created a “gun violence research center” and the state of New Jersey is considering establishing a similar program. Similarly, university professors such as David Hemenway of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, have called for more federal funding of gun violence research.

Many gun rights advocates are wary of such research, fearing it will be used to fuel a partisan political agenda. Dr. Timothy Wheeler of Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership has noted that CDC has a track record of anti-gun bias. In the 1990s, one CDC official even stated that his goal was to create a public perception of gun ownership as something “dirty, deadly — and banned.”

But regardless of whether “gun violence” research is being conducted by the federal government, states, universities, or private organizations, there are three key principles all public health researchers and firearms policy analysts should remember.

The first principle is:

* Firearms save lives as well take lives.

If one imagines that guns in civilian hands are used solely as murder weapons, it makes sense to ban or strictly regulate them.

But millions of Americans legally carry a firearm every day, and most cite self-defense as their primary reason. The overwhelming majority of the time, those guns are never drawn in anger. But innocent civilians can and do sometimes use their guns in self-defense. Any discussion of firearms policy must acknowledge the lives saved by legal use of guns as well as the lives lost by criminal use.

Recommended by Forbes
The numbers of defensive gun uses (DGUs) each year is controversial. But one study ordered by the CDC and conducted by The National Academies’ Institute of Medicine and National Research Council reported that, “Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence”:


Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.

Another study estimates there are 1,029,615 DGUs per year “for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere” excluding “military service, police work, or work as a security guard,” (within the range of the National Academies’ paper), yielding an estimate of 162,000 cases per year where someone “almost certainly would have been killed” if they “had not used a gun for protection.”

(In comparison, there were 11,208 homicide deaths by firearm in the US in 2012. There were a total of 33,636 deaths due to “injury by firearms,” of which the majority were suicides, 21,175.)

By Augustas Didžgalvis - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0, Wikimedia Commons
SIG Pro SP2022, one of many pistols suitable for personal defense.


A second key principle in judging gun violence research:

* The value of firearms in the hands of law-abiding citizens should be measured in terms of lives saved or crimes prevented, not criminals killed.

As an example of the latter type of analysis, one recent Washington Post story reported that, “For every criminal killed in self-defense, 34 innocent people die”:

In 2012, there were 8,855 criminal gun homicides in the FBI’s homicide database, but only 258 gun killings by private citizens that were deemed justifiable, which the FBI defines as “the killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen.” That works out to one justifiable gun death for every 34 unjustifiable gun deaths.

However, this comparison can be misleading. An armed civilian does not have to kill the criminal in order to save an innocent life. As the National Research Council notes, “[E]ffective defensive gun use need not ever lead the perpetrator to be wounded or killed. Rather, to assess the benefits of self-defense, one needs to measure crime and injury averted. The particular outcome of an offender is of little relevance.”


We don’t judge whether the police are doing a good job by the numbers of criminals they kill each year, but rather by how well they stop crime. The same should be true in judging the effectiveness of civilian DGUs.

The exact number of DGUs is not precisely known. There are reasons to think the actual number may be higher or lower than the figures cited. For example, some respondents to surveys may consciously or unconsciously exaggerate the degree of peril they were in, which could lead to an overestimate of DGUs.

On the other hand, gun policy researcher Brian Doherty explains how reported numbers could also be an underestimate. Just as many sexual assault victims don’t report those crimes to the authorities, many law-abiding people who successfully use a gun to deter a crime without firing a shot may similarly choose to avoid reporting these incidents to the police:

[Y]our possession or use of the weapon might be a matter of greater concern to the cops than whatever the intruder or criminal you were repelling was up to. They’ll doubtless never lay hands on him; you are right there, for any investigation and harassment the cops might want to call forth. Many gun owners or gun users might see little good and much possible bad arising from calling the cops after a DGU incident, and thus many or even most would never make a police blotter, never make a newspaper.


It’s relatively easy to measure the number of lives lost due to criminal gun violence. It’s harder to measure the number of lives saved by legal defensive gun use. Murders that didn’t happen don’t show up on crime statistics. This is just another example of Bastiat’s classic principle of “the seen vs. the unseen.”

Finally, a third principle to remember in analyzing public health gun violence research:

* The right to self-defense does not depend on statistics and numbers.

Doherty makes an important point about the ultimate relevance of any such research studies: “However large the number of DGUs, or how small; and however large the number of accidents or tragedies caused by guns, or how small, the right and ability to choose for yourself how to defend yourself and your family — at home or away from it — remains, and that numerical debate should have no particular bearing on it.”

One of my friends had to use his legal concealed handgun to protect himself when attacked by two knife-wielding criminals. I’ve written about his story here.


For those who wonder whether AR-15-style rifles have a legitimate self-defense use, took a look at this story where someone used an AR-15 to protect himself during a home invasion against 3 black-clad intruders, and another story where a man used his AR-15 to stop a knife attack against others.

It is our inalienable right to self-defense that makes me a proud supporter of responsible gun ownership and of the Second Amendment. Guns can be used for good as well as evil purposes.

We would consider it irresponsible for a public health researcher to study only the negative effects of, say, caffeine consumption without also considering the positive effects. If public health researchers wish to have credibility with the millions of gun rights supporters such as myself, they should endeavour to quantify the very real benefits of legal gun ownership in addition to the genuine harms caused by illegal gun use. Studies that discuss only the latter without the former are incomplete at best — and dishonest at worst.

I support good public policy based on objective research, informed by a proper understanding of individual rights — including the right to self-defense. If we’re going to engage in gun violence research, let’s do it right — by recognizing both the positive and negative aspects of civilian firearm ownership.



Personally, I don't feel strongly one way or another when it comes to guns specifically, but I do feel that our freedoms are worth fighting for. This article offered an interesting perspective, seems like something to explore and consider.

Edited by birdeatingspider (03/24/18 06:54 AM)

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Re: Guns Save Lives [Re: birdeatingspider]
    #25086680 -

Love it!  Unfortunately almost any gun control advocate I've talked to already has their mind made up and doesn't want to hear any facts.

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Re: Guns Save Lives [Re: Glockshooter]
    #25086775 -

I remember when a guy shot a .50 cal muzzle loader into the air.  It came down a mile away and went through an Amish Buggy and killed a teenage Amish girl.  Hit her right in the head.

Maybe a majority of the time people are not totally stupid with guns.  Yet it happens that people get stupid with guns.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: Guns Save Lives [Re: Glockshooter]
    #25086791 -

Didnt read it, didn't need to. Im a "drug addict" who carries and pistol and I personally have never had the slightest urge to kill another person. I can only assume that the majority of other normal, unpsychopathic people who carry guns feel the same way....

And I have my gun, which I legally obtained, to protect myself from the psychopathic people who DO have the urge to, say open fire on innocents in a public place. Do people who support gun control actually think these kind of people legally obtain guns? Well, I guess thats irrelevent anyway. Even if they do obtain their weapon legally, they would just obtain it illegally if guns were, well illegal.

And then there would be no one like me to stop them, because guns would be fucking illegal. Unless I illegally got a gun, but then I couldnt legally defend myself and would probably go to jail for murder if I killed a gunman. Even if killing said gunman saved 100 people.

This is pretty much the same as fucking drugs. They are illegal, do people who use them give a fuck? Making guns illegal will not solve SHIT and probably even make the situation worse! Criminals will always have guns, the only difference is when they break into some pregant womans house, she cant shoot back :shrug:

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Re: Guns Save Lives [Re: xbloodwhipx] * 4
    #25086835 -

Guns can save lives. They take more. These are not  debatable facts. If guns saved lives then the US would be the safest county in the world.

It's time to stop listening to morons making any argument that guns help society in the aggregate. It's just bullshit. Owning a gun reduces your life expectancy. If you aren't in a rural area where a gun may have a legitimate purpose to justify your choice to increase your personal risk, you don't need a gun

. If you live in a city or the suburbs and don't feel safe without a gun, you are a pussy. You are a weak minded, fearful, impotent coward who is putting our society at risk. Grow up


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Edited by koods (03/24/18 09:39 AM)

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Re: Guns Save Lives [Re: koods] * 1
    #25086857 -

I live in a trailer park in bumfuck alabama full of methheads, so i think its fucking justified. I didnt own a gun when I lived in atlanta. But thanks for telling me to grow up without knowing my situation :cookiemonster:.

And, guns will always fucking exist, its a fact of life. They need to remain legal because criminals who intend to shoot you will always own a gun, and its nice to have a way to legally defend yourself.

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Re: Guns Save Lives [Re: xbloodwhipx]
    #25086866 -

sounds like a terrible situation to own a gun.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Guns Save Lives [Re: koods] * 1
    #25086871 -

It wont sound so terrible when one of those fuckers sees one of my flat screen TVs or computers and decides that they could sell it for meth.:lol:

Hell, maybe I am a danger to society. Because if they come into my "home" and I happen to be home, they will have a hole in their head. :wink:

Also, you just contradicted yourself. :smug:

koods said:
Guns can save lives. They take more.



And if they were illegal, they would still take lives. Just forget the part about them saving any.

koods said:
If you aren't in a rural area where a gun may have a legitimate purpose to justify your choice to increase your personal risk, you don't need a gun





xbloodwhipx said:
I live in a trailer park in bumfuck alabama full of methheads



koods said:
sounds like a terrible situation to own a gun.



So, if my situation isn't the situation you described in your first post, I'd love for you to enlighten me.

See, I don't personally know you, but it seems obvious to me you have never lived near dangerous people, and felt in fear for your life. If you have lived near dangerous people, and didn't feel the need to own a weapon, good for you. Doesn't mean you wouldn't wish you had a gun if one of them broke into your home and shot you.

I don't have a problem throwing hands with these assholes, but chances are they would run away, then come back and shoot me.

Better for me if I can shoot back, otherwise I'm completely fucked. You are so far disconnected from reality its laughable.

Edited by xbloodwhipx (03/24/18 10:20 AM)

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Re: Guns Save Lives [Re: xbloodwhipx]
    #25086924 -

More likely they'll just wait until you're asleep or gone and take your tv and your gun.

Or instead of having your your tv stolen you get into a shoot out and are injured or killed. Or you injure or kill someone else.

Or your kid shoots himself.

Or during a moment of inattention, someone hurts themselves with your gun.

Or instead of having a rational response to a dangerous situation and leaving the area and getting to safety, your gun gives you an irrational sense of security and you provoke a situation where you and or others resort to gunfire.

Maybe you have a psychotic break, or drugs or alcohol leads to a catastrophic series of events. Or you go trough a depression and having a gun allows for a rash and irreversible decision.

Your gun is not making you safer. Sorry. You are simply engaging in poor risk assessment . Guns do not improve outcomes when it comes to random crime. If you have a situation where you may be uniquely targeted for criminal activity, then the math might support owning a gun.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Edited by koods (03/24/18 10:30 AM)

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Re: Guns Save Lives [Re: xbloodwhipx]
    #25086930 -

Yeah I lived in NE and SE DC in the nineties when there were 500 murders a year in the city. There was a device on the light pole in front of my house that detected and located gunshots. So, yeah your trailer park doesn't sound that bad.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Guns Save Lives [Re: koods]
    #25086952 -

koods said:
More likely they'll just wait until you're asleep or gone and take your tv and your gun.

Or instead of having your your tv stolen you get into a shoot out and are injured or killed. Or you injure or kill someone else.

Or your kid shoots himself.

Or during a moment of inattention, someone hurts themselves with your gun.

Or instead of having a rational response to a dangerous situation and leaving the area and getting to safety, your gun gives you an irrational sense of security and you provoke a situation where you and or others resort to gunfire.

Maybe you have a psychotic break, or drugs or alcohol leads to a catastrophic series of events. Or you go trough a depression and having a gun allows for a rash and irreversible decision.

Your gun is not making you safer. Sorry. You are simply engaging in poor risk assesmebt .



Well, I'd hear them break in. I sleep light as fuck, and have a dog.
Assuming I'm not home, they can have the TV, my gun is either on me, or in my gun safe. I don't necessarily have the gun to protect my possessions, but my life if they try to kill me in the process of taking my possessions. Which is why I'm not coming after them if they are in my home, I'm locking myself in my room and calling 911, if they break my bedroom door down they are getting shot. I would obviously attempt to escape without shooting anyone, so maybe I exaggerated that point.

If I'm in a shootout they probably intended to shoot me anyway?

I don't have a kid, if I did my opinion on owning a weapon may change :shrug:

I guess that would be terrible, good point.

I would never provoke a situation. If a situation that isn't a home invasion ever ended in me shooting at someone, it would probably begin with them shooting first (not necessarily at me). I'm not a violent person by any means.

Well, I could achieve the same end result (suicide) by jumping off of a building, slicing my wrist, or intentionally overdosing on some drug.

All of this just seems pretty unlikely. I'd think you are more likely to die in a car accident even.

Or maybe guns are dangerous as fuck to just own and I'm completely deluded, it doesn't seem like it to me at this point though. I'm pretty obsessed with gun safety and only using my gun to defend myself :shrug:

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Re: Guns Save Lives [Re: koods]
    #25086957 -

koods said:
Yeah I lived in NE and SE DC in the nineties when there were 500 murders a year in the city. There was a device on the light pole in front of my house that detected and located gunshots. So, yeah your trailer park doesn't sound that bad.



Well, as I said before, good for you.

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Re: Guns Save Lives [Re: xbloodwhipx]
    #25086974 -

Why would someone break into your house to kill you? That is not a rational concern. Unless you are invoked in criminal activity. In which case, that is not a rational activity:

If someone is out to kill you, you having a gun isn't likely to change the outcome. The element of surprise gives them a huge advatage and in almost any circumstance would make your own weapon useless.

If a criminal has a gun for their own self protection, confronting them with your own gun simply turns a non life threatening situation into a gunfight. in almost any conceivable situation, you having a gun increases the risk to your own physical safety.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Guns Save Lives [Re: koods]
    #25086984 -

More then likely, they wouldn't be there to kill me. They would break in to steal some shit, and if armed shoot me as a reaction. Armed intruders exist, so I'm assuming all intruders are armed and out to kill me, specifically those who break in when someone is obviously home. But, as I said before, I wouldn't confront them. Rather, lock my bedroom door and hope they stay out. Thats always been my plan if I ever have to deal with an intruder. If they break my bedroom door down, well a locked bedroom door at night is a pretty big sign someone is in said bedroom, correct? In that situation why wouldn't I shoot them? Shit happens and crazy, irrational people exist. How do I know an intruders intentions?

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Re: Guns Save Lives [Re: xbloodwhipx] * 1
    #25086990 -

koods said:
Guns can save lives. They take more. These are not  debatable facts. If guns saved lives then the US would be the safest county in the world.



True. We have more guns than the average war zone, which is why our gun violence is on par with countries like Yemen, which are literal war zones. If guns saved more lives than they took, then Americans must be some bloodthirsty motherfuckers, because your chances of dying in America for whatever reason is already higher than the rest of the developed world (which does not have nearly as many guns).

Of course, Occam's razor plays a part, and maybe it's the prevalence of guns that make America so dangerous. Shocking, I know.

xbloodwhipx said:
And, guns will always fucking exist, its a fact of life. They need to remain legal because criminals who intend to shoot you will always own a gun, and its nice to have a way to legally defend yourself.



Making drugs illegal makes them go away, making gays illegal makes them go away, making immigrants illegal makes them go away, but making guns illegal...doesn't? Republican logic!

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Re: Guns Save Lives [Re: Kryptos]
    #25086992 -

You don't even know what you are talking about lmfao don't even reply to me.

Im glad someone agrees with me though, so thanks :rofl:

Edited by xbloodwhipx (03/24/18 11:19 AM)

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Re: Guns Save Lives [Re: xbloodwhipx]
    #25086997 -

xbloodwhipx said:
More then likely, they wouldn't be there to kill me. They would break in to steal some shit, and if armed shoot me as a reaction. Armed intruders exist, so I'm assuming all intruders are armed and out to kill me, specifically those who break in when someone is obviously home. But, as I said before, I wouldn't confront them. Rather, lock my bedroom door and hope they stay out. Thats always been my plan if I ever have to deal with an intruder. If they break my bedroom door down, well a locked bedroom door at night is a pretty big sign someone is in said bedroom, correct? In that situation why wouldn't I shoot them? Shit happens and crazy, irrational people exist. How do I know an intruders intentions?



See, I don't understand this logic. And ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Make your house look like a bad place to break in. I've lived in all sorts of neighborhoods, but nobody has ever broken into my place, or my car, even though I rarely lock either.

I've had people break into the neighbors while I was home.

Hide your valuables, or at least make them not visible from the windows. I like to throw a bunch of papers around my car, not just because it's all usually relevant to my research, but because criminals are people too, and nobody likes digging through trash to find treasure.

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Re: Guns Save Lives [Re: xbloodwhipx]
    #25086998 -

xbloodwhipx said:
You don't even know what you are talking about lmfao don't even reply to me.

Im glad someone agrees with me though, so thanks :rofl:



Oh? Inconvenient truth much?

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Re: Guns Save Lives [Re: Kryptos]
    #25087019 -

Kryptos said:
xbloodwhipx said:
You don't even know what you are talking about lmfao don't even reply to me.

Im glad someone agrees with me though, so thanks :rofl:



Oh? Inconvenient truth much?



No, you literally agreed with me and still don't realize it.

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Re: Guns Save Lives [Re: koods]
    #25087033 -

Deleted.

Edited by Glockshooter (03/24/18 12:54 PM)

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