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OfflinePhred
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Rono]
    #1589520 - 05/29/03 06:24 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Rono writes:

My point was simply that he allowed it to happen...would you agree with that point?

Of course I don't agree. To deliberately use the word "allow" necessarily implies that one has the option of preventing whatever it is that is about to occur. You might just as well say that Chretien "allowed" the rain to fall today in Canada.

By deliberately comparing the Blitz with 9/11, you are implying that the situations are identical insofar as there being some action/s that both Churchill and Bush could have taken to avoid the catastrophes.

Clearly you are of the opinion that Bush could have prevented 9/11. Although we disagree on that point, I can at least understand why you believe what you do regarding this point. However, I fail to see how you (or anyone with an ounce of rationality) can honestly believe Churchill had any power to prevent the Blitz from taking place.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Rono]
    #1589532 - 05/29/03 06:26 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Rono writes:

When golfer Payne Stewart flew into restricted airspace a little while ago his plane was intercepted within minutes...

What was the date of Payne Stewart's transgression?

pinky


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Phred]
    #1589538 - 05/29/03 06:27 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Scrambled not shot down and i don't think people wouldn't have minded so much if they were headed into the middle of a city.



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OfflineRonoS
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Phred]
    #1589563 - 05/29/03 06:33 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Fine..how would you like me to phrase it so that it passes your stringent literary standards? He knew the attacks were happening, and did not or could not stop the attack...what word would you use?


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Phred]
    #1589574 - 05/29/03 06:35 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

What was the date of Payne Stewart's transgression?



October 1999...WELL before 9/11 so obviously the policies were in place before the attacks.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Rono]
    #1589635 - 05/29/03 06:48 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Rono writes:

Fine..how would you like me to phrase it so that it passes your stringent literary standards?

The thing is, there is no way to equate the two situations at all. In theory, (with better intelligence information) the four jets need never have been hijacked at all. However, there was absolutely no way that the Blitz could have been prevented.

He knew the attacks were happening, and did not or could not stop the attack...

I refer you once again to any history of the Battle of Britain. To say that he "did not or could not stop the attack" is just flat out wrong. Fighters were scrambled, many Luftwaffe bombers and their escorts were shot down, just as many Luftwaffe bombers and escorts who had previously been bombing miltary targets in England were shot down. Did some bombers still make it through? Yep. Does that mean Churchill did nothing? Nope.

pinky


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Phred]
    #1589661 - 05/29/03 06:51 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

And what are your veiws to jets not being scrambled?


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Phred]
    #1589713 - 05/29/03 06:57 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I think you are missing the point I am trying to make here Pinky...let me simplify it so as to not distract from what I am saying. There is precedent of Governments knowing about attacks happening prior to the actual attacks....

Churchill knew the attacks were coming.
Roosevelt knew the attacks were coming.
Bush knew the attacks were coming...and ALLOWED them to happen.



--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (05/29/03 07:00 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1589719 - 05/29/03 06:58 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Azmodeus writes:

Scrambled not shot down...

Think it through. If a hijacker on a suicide mission (i.e. the hijackers we are discussing) ignores the fighters he sees outside his window and keeps his course, what should the fighter do?

...and i don't think people wouldn't have minded so much if they were headed into the middle of a city.

No? You don't think there would have been people claiming that the pilot was merely re-crossing the city while trying to find and land at one of the many airports surrounding metropolitan New York? We disagree there, amigo.

Let's face it -- if the administration KNEW about the planned hijackings prior to the time the planes took off (as the conspiracy theorists claim), it would never have been necessary to scramble ANY jets. All that would have been necessary was to arrest the hijackers at the boarding gate.

If they didn't know about it till the time it was apparent that several near-simultaneous course deviations indicated a mass hijacking, then what is all the fuss about? The whole "scrambling jets" thing becomes moot, doesn't it?

pinky


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Phred]
    #1589754 - 05/29/03 07:02 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

All that would have been necessary was to arrest the hijackers at the boarding gate.


Not at all...if Bush wanted the attacks to happen then there would be no reason to arrest the highjackers.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Rono]
    #1589762 - 05/29/03 07:03 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Rono writes:

Churchill knew the attacks were coming.

Agreed.

Roosevelt knew the attacks were coming.

So say some. Others say no. There is no compelling evidence one way or the other, and likely never will be.

Bush knew the attacks were coming.

So say some, with even less compelling evidence than those who try to argue that Roosevelt had advance warning of the Pearl Harbor attack.

However, you have finally gotten away from "allowed to happen." My job here is complete. Carry on.

pinky


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Phred]
    #1589784 - 05/29/03 07:06 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I think a better example would be the bombing of Coventry, rather than the Blitz. It's been written that Churchill knew in advance that it was going to be bombed, but deliberately didn't order the evacuation so that the Nazis wouldn't know that their code had been broken. It's been argued that Churchill wasn't actually told about this, but it's not contested that the Intelligence services knew, and that it was standard policy to warn the emergency services that an attack was likely.

So while they may not have been able to physically prevent the bombing from happening, they could still have evacuated the city. I would class a warning like that as prevention.

#edit#
Also, I didn't see anyone mentioning the jets having to shoot the planes down, just that they weren't scrambled. Regardless of whether or not the jets needed to shoot down the planes, if standard procedure dictates that the jets are launched, then they should be (and they weren't).


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


Edited by Edame (05/29/03 07:20 PM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Phred]
    #1589810 - 05/29/03 07:09 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Face facts, dude -- if US warplanes had shot down those four airliners before they hit their intended targets, the howls of outrage would be far louder than the ones we are still hearing today over the failure of the US government to shoot them down. You can bet on it.



How true.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Edame]
    #1589854 - 05/29/03 07:15 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

My Apologies...that was the example I was originally trying to make...Not London


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Phred]
    #1589894 - 05/29/03 07:21 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Azmodeus writes:

Well we do know jets should have been scrambled....

We do, do we?

Please provide us a single instance (any one will do) where the US has ever shot down a hijacked commercial airliner over US soil. Or anywhere, for that matter. Or even where any nation has ever shot down a hijacked commercial airliner. Or even a single instance where any hijacked commercial airliner has ever failed to land safely at an airport somewhere.



But he didn't say they should've been shot down. He said jets should've been scrambled. It's standard operating proceedure whenever an airliner goes off-course and loses radio contact. I don't know what they're supposed to do after that, but the fact that standard operating procedure was ignored indicates that something's not right here.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Edited by silversoul7 (05/29/03 07:23 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1590113 - 05/29/03 08:03 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

silversoul7 writes:

But he didn't say they should've been shot down. He said jets should've been scrambled. It's standard operating proceedure whenever an airliner goes off-course and loses radio contact.

Ah. Indeed, I was missing the distinction. Mea culpa.

Okay, then. Let's go with that. If this was the very first time (was it?) since the regulation about scrambling fighters took effect that fighters weren't scrambled for an airliner that has gone off course and lost radio contact, then we must decide whether it was a fuckup or whether there were deliberate orders to not scramble them. However, if there have been past instances of this occurring where fighters were not scrambled, then the task of proving that this time was more than just another fuckup becomes more difficult, does it not?

Can anyone provide a credible source on this point?

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Phred]
    #1590125 - 05/29/03 08:05 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I am willing to believe that it is a fuckup, but if it is, then the guys who fucked up should be courtmarshalled. As far as I know, no one has.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1593841 - 05/30/03 05:40 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

No investigation either?


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Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1594269 - 05/30/03 07:44 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I believe there was an investigation, but it was headed by Henry Kissinger. Considering Kissinger's track record, I find that very suspicious.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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