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Anonymous

Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Xlea321]
    #1233889 - 01/20/03 10:17 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

The idea behind the system that governs the United States is that The People have the power. They are in control. The founding fathers were not nearly as naive as you and understood that ultimately, power rests upon violence. It is a sad fact, but it is true. They were very specific about guaranteeing that the Government did not have a monopoloy on this last resort of self-determination. To preserve and make into law the right of the people to violently resist tyranny was their intent. Do you forget that these men were themselves revolutionaries?


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Invisibleshroomophile
ShroomitusFidelis
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/20/02
Posts: 762
Loc: USA
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Xlea321]
    #1233904 - 01/20/03 10:21 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

It's really very simple.The right does exist,or the gov't would have already taken them long ago.The gov't will try to whittle the number of gun owners down til they think they can confiscate the rest.I guess the cowards will give up their guns.They will have to take mine.But what the hell,I'll be dead and won't be needing them.


--------------------
Once the mighty oak,was a nut who held his ground.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: ]
    #1233906 - 01/20/03 10:21 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

The founding fathers were not nearly as naive as you

I guess that's why they included the militia clause. Just to make sure no-one could ever be naive enough to assume they meant "every individual".

Do you forget that these men were themselves revolutionaries?

Has this anything to do with what they wrote in the second amendment?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: shroomophile]
    #1233912 - 01/20/03 10:23 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

The right does exist,or the gov't would have already taken them long ago

Some right exists, it just isn't the second amendment.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Xlea321]
    #1233915 - 01/20/03 10:24 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Has this anything to do with what they wrote in the second amendment?



It has EVERYTHING to do with what they wrote in the second amendment.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Anonymous

Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Xlea321]
    #1233930 - 01/20/03 10:28 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

We're back to ignoring what they wrote and imagining what they meant. Lets just look at what they wrote.

Yes... lets look at what was wrote and said during those days by the men who wrote the constitution and also how it was interpreted by others in those days (and on that last note, please remember the first quote by Jefferson...)

"On every question of construction (of the Constitution) let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, June 12, 1823, The Complete Jefferson, p 322

"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress ? to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms?" - Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789

"To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them ?" - Richard Henry Lee writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic (1787-1788)

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms has been recognized by the General Government; but the best security of that right after all is, the military spirit, that taste for martial exercises, which has always distinguished the free citizens of these States ? Such men form the best barrier to the liberties of America." - Gazette of the United States, October 14, 1789

"The whole of the Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals ? It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of." - Albert Gallatin of the New York Historical Society, October 7, 1789

"? the people have a right to keep and bear arms." - Patrick Henry and George Mason, Elliot, Debates at 185

"No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." - Thomas Jefferson, Proposal Virginia Constitution, 1 T. Jefferson Papers, 334 (C. J. Boyd, Ed., 1950)

"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms." - Tench Coxe in "Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution." Under the pseudonym "A Pennsylvanian" in the Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789 at 2 col. 1

"The Constitution shall never be construed ? to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samuel Adams, Debates & Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87

"The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full possession of them." - Zachariah Johnson, 3 Elliot, Debates at 646

"A free people ought ? to be armed ?" - George Washington, speech of January 7, 1790 in the Boston Independent Chronicle, January 14, 1790

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troops?" - Noah Webster, "An Examination into the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution" (1787) in Pamphlets on the Constitution of the United States (P. Ford, 1888)

"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them ?" - George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." - James Madison, The Federalist Papers # 46 at 243-244

"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." - Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-8

"The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun." - Patrick Henry, 3 Elliott, Debates at 386

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." - Thomas Jefferson, Encyclopedia of T. Jefferson, 318 (Foley, Ed., reissued 1967)

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms like laws discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside ? Horrid mischief would ensue were one half the world deprived of the use of them ?" - Thomas Paine, I Writings of Thomas Paine at 56 (1894)

"Arms in the hands of citizens [may] be used at individual discretion? in private self-defense ?" - John Adams, A Defense of the Constitutions of the Government of the USA, 471 (1788)

"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves ? and include all men capable of bearing arms." - Richard Henry Lee, Additional Letters from the Federal Farmer (1788) at 169

"What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty." - Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, I Annals of Congress at 750 (August 17, 1789)

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." - George Mason, 3 Elliott, Debates at 425-426

"The right of the people to keep and bear ? arms shall not be infringed. A well-regulated militia, composed of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country ?" - James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789)




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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Evolving]
    #1233931 - 01/20/03 10:29 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

It has EVERYTHING to do with what they wrote in the second amendment.

So we're back to imagining what they theoretically might have meant because they were "revolutionaries".

Hitler was a revolutionary too.

I ask again, what does being a revolutionary have to do with the second amendment? Apart from wild imaginings of what they "really meant" rather than looking at what they wrote?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: ]
    #1233934 - 01/20/03 10:29 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

"But "militia" meant, and has always meant, a non-government group of fighting men. Otherwise, it's called an Army."

I completely agree.

"they meant the People"

No, they meant the "militia". And a "well regulated" one at that.

Rewriting the bill of rights into your own words, and saying that puts the issue to rest is kind of silly to me. Anyone can rewrite it into their own words. Personally, I think it should only be interpreted as is: "a well regulated militia".

I agree that militia does not mean Army or National Guard. It means "A military force that is not part of a regular army and is subject to call for service in an emergency." (dictionary.com) I don't think "the people" meets this definition.


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineSkikid16
fungus fan

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
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Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Xlea321]
    #1233940 - 01/20/03 10:31 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


I guess that's why they included the militia clause. Just to make sure no-one could ever be naive enough to assume they meant "every individual".




What comprises a militia? armed individuals. So how do you suppose we choose who is in the militia, and if they have guns and we don't, how do we protect ourselves if the militia turns?

Oh, and you never stated what you think the 2nd amendment says and your interpretation.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: ]
    #1233941 - 01/20/03 10:32 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Yes... lets look at what was wrote and said during those days by the men who wrote the constitution

But you're not looking at the second amendment are you. Maybe there were some founding fathers who were for gun ownership, it just isn't what they wrote in the second amendment. They very specifically included the phrase about a well-regulated militia. They weren't stupid - they did it for a reason.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Xlea321]
    #1233946 - 01/20/03 10:35 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

I'm just wondering what the general consensus is on all of this...


The 2nd Amendment
Gives Individual Citizens The Right To Keep and Bear Arms
Does not Give Individual Citizens the Right to Keep and Bear arms




Votes accepted from (12/31/69 05:00 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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Anonymous

Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: ]
    #1233953 - 01/20/03 10:37 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)



Regardless of what the Bill of Rights says, should citizens be allowed to own guns?
Yes
No






Votes accepted from (12/31/69 05:00 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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OfflineBavet
Sensitive StonedRebel

Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 383
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: ]
    #1233965 - 01/20/03 10:41 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

GUNS RULE! plain n simple you try to take mine and I'll make sure you end up dead. I wait for the day the gov comes to take my guns along with my life.


--------------------
"~Dream as if you'll live forever....live as if you'll die today~ James Dean"


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Anonymous

Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Xlea321]
    #1233974 - 01/20/03 10:44 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

I have this friend Pete. Pete is one of the most stubborn people I know. He clings to his ideas like a raft in a storm. No matter what logic you present against his ideas, he just doesn't listen to you unless what you say validates his argument. He'll say something, and you can give him concrete, rational reasons why his argument is incorrect... he'll just keep trying. You can beat his argument anywhere he takes it, but he just won't let go. Even when everyone in the room says, "Pete, give it up, you're wrong!" he just keeps going on like the most stubborn guy you ever saw. It's actually kind of amusing to watch his arguments fail and him just falter and falter, but never change his mind. Pete isn't very smart and doesn't think for himself very well...


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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: ]
    #1233978 - 01/20/03 10:45 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

"? the people have a right to keep and bear arms." - Patrick Henry and George Mason, Elliot, Debates at 185

"The Constitution shall never be construed ? to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samuel Adams, Debates & Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87

"The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full possession of them." - Zachariah Johnson, 3 Elliot, Debates at 646

"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them ?" - George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380

"The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun." - Patrick Henry, 3 Elliott, Debates at 386

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." - George Mason, 3 Elliott, Debates at 425-426



Lots of debating going on even back then. Seems that even back then, people didn't feel that arms belonged to everyone.

I think that no here would argue with the right of a militia to bear arms. I think the debate is whether or not "militia" is the same thing as "individual". But if that were the case, why use the word "militia"???


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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Anonymous

Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Xlea321]
    #1233988 - 01/20/03 10:49 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

And finally... even if Thomas Jefferson himself were to come back to life right now, log on to the Shroomery, and make a post saying "hey guys, you got it all wrong... We really DID mean that just the military and not the people could own guns!" I could still support my view that citizens should be allowed to own guns very well.


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Anonymous

Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1234010 - 01/20/03 10:55 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Here are some more quotes... some are repeats...

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
-Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria.

"...arms...discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. ...Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived the use of them."
-Thomas Paine.

"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
-Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-8.

"The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
-Patrick Henry.

"To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them..."
-Richard Henry Lee writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic (1787-1788).

"The Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms."
-Samuel Adams, debates & Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87.

"Arms in the hands of citizens (may) be used at individual discretion...in private self defense..."
-John Adams, A defense of the Constitutions of the Government of the USA, 471 (1788).

"...the people have a right to keep and bear arms."
-Patrick Henry and George Mason, Elliot, Debates at 185.

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials."
-George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 425-426.

"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves...and include all men capable of bearing arms."
-Richard Henry Lee, Additional Letters from the Federal Farmer (1788) at 169.

"The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full possession of them."
-Zachariah Johnson, 3 Elliot, Debates at 646.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
-Thomas Jefferson, Proposal Virginia Constitution, 1 T. Jefferson Papers, 334 (C.J. Boyd, Ed., 1950).

"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms."
-Tench Coxe, Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution, under the pseudonym "A Pennsylvanian" in the Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1989 at col. 1.

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
-Thomas Jefferson.

"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms [of government] those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny."
-Thomas Jefferson, Bill for the More General diffusion of Knowledge (1778).

"(The Constitution preserves) the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
-James Madison.



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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: ]
    #1234012 - 01/20/03 10:56 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

And finally... even if Thomas Jefferson himself were to come back to life right now, log on to the Shroomery, and make a post saying "hey guys, you got it all wrong... We really DID mean that just the military and not the people could own guns!" I could still support my view that citizens should be allowed to own guns very well.




I wouldn't argue with you on this. In fact, currently the poll shows everyone is in support of guns. The debate (at least in my opinion) is whether that is a constitutional right, which I don't think it is based on the words "a well regulated militia".


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Xlea321]
    #1234014 - 01/20/03 10:56 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Excellent point. This is where the NRA argument collapses.



Alpo, why you see the need to keep lying about this is beyond me. Look up the definition of regulated at the time the 2nd was written... I'll save you the trouble... it meant well equiped. Even someone with your obvious lack of comprehension should be ablre to find it.

Since you have been provided with a multitude of links and references both to court decisions and writings by the framers and you still fail to grasp the obvious, I can only conclude you're being deliberately obtuse.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Xlea321]
    #1234018 - 01/20/03 10:57 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Nah, I don't buy it. And neither does pretty much every legal expert in America. Otherwise the Supreme court and federals court wouldn't be so heavily against the NRA's interpretation.



More lies Alpo, and you know it.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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