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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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9/11: The Smoking Gun?
    #1576851 - 05/25/03 09:37 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Not quite. But damning nonetheless. The following quote can be found on p63 of the PNAC report entitled Rebuilding America's Defenses[PDF]:

Quote:

Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event ? like a new Pearl Harbor[sic]...




Where "revolutionary change" is the topic of the PNAC website and the rest of the report.

It looks like if Bush didnt know, then at the very least Cheney, Rummy and Wolfy and other signers on the Statement of Principles page knew. They might just as well have used the word "Reichstag fire" instead of "Pearl Harbour". In similar, more mundane scenarios, such as purchasing a $1M life insurance policy on someone that gets murdered the following week, the existence of such a motive would be grounds for issuing an arrest warrant.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #1576942 - 05/25/03 10:23 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I totally agree with everything you've said.




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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #1577053 - 05/25/03 11:01 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Its all right there in front of everybody yet they turn away to watch "Friends"


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1577188 - 05/25/03 11:45 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

It was right there in front of Bush to.




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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Learyfan]
    #1577204 - 05/25/03 11:50 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

yet he turns away to avoid punishment from above


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #1577386 - 05/26/03 01:09 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

In similar, more mundane scenarios, such as purchasing a $1M life insurance policy on someone that gets murdered the following week, the existence of such a motive would be grounds for issuing an arrest warrant.

Good point.  And with the packing of conservative judges, who's going to issue any warrant?

Bush Admin's Conservative Judiciary

:blush: :frown: 


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InvisibleXibalba
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: hongomon]
    #1577625 - 05/26/03 03:08 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)



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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Xibalba]
    #1577752 - 05/26/03 04:53 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

its just going to keep happening until somehow somebody does something - the problem is, every "something" that "somebody" tries is turned against their cause very quickly and effectively..

its like humor is the only weapon


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Anonymous

Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #1577819 - 05/26/03 06:15 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Luvdemshrooms thinks you are all crazy. All those crazy conspiracy theories. You all should get a life.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: ]
    #1579434 - 05/26/03 09:49 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

They ARE all crazy....Be lucky you all live in countries where insanity is legal...


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1584204 - 05/28/03 08:39 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Luvdemshrooms thinks you are all crazy. All those crazy conspiracy theories. You all should get a life.

They ARE all crazy....Be lucky you all live in countries where insanity is legal...




As usual, "your crazy" is the best the right-wing nutfruits can do.



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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #1584305 - 05/28/03 09:56 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I wonder if it would be better if we just called them Facist Nazi's?


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1585002 - 05/28/03 02:41 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Indeed. Because you MUST be a facist nazi to believe that even President Bush isnt so inherently evil that he's going to kill thousands of his own citizens and condemn the economy to years of tortured hell for the sake of a few approval points...

Sieg Heil?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1585375 - 05/28/03 05:01 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Indeed. Because you MUST be a facist nazi to believe that even President Bush isnt so inherently evil that he's going to kill thousands of his own citizens and condemn the economy to years of tortured hell for the sake of a few approval points...


It's not like there isn't precedent for this kind of behaviour from a world leader....Churchill knew about the London bombing before it came, Roosevelt knew about the Pearl Harbour attacks before they happened and Bush knew about 9/11.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Rono]
    #1585616 - 05/28/03 06:20 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Churchill let them bomb London so that save lives in the long run and win the war against Nazi Germany. No comparison Whatsoever.

Roosevelt knew about Pearl Harbor? Thats a new one by me...How do you figure? I've heard the whole "America MADE Japan Attack" arguement. And there's evidence that the Navy in Pearl Harbor had some advance warning, (A few hours) of the attack. But I've never heard that Roosevelt knew. Prove it?

Why, why, why, would Bush do such a thing? Honestly, I go through EVERY single arguement you people make around here, and NONE of them make sense....


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1585620 - 05/28/03 06:22 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I go through EVERY single arguement you people make around here, and NONE of them make sense.... 




Figures. :smirk:


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1585639 - 05/28/03 06:27 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Figures....Right. But really, run it by me again. What's Bush's justification for 9/11?
His popularity? Hmph...Its almost down to pre-9/11.

Oh, he wanted a pretext to invade Iraq for oil money? Oh...wait...The Economy has lost more in the last 2 years than we'll possibly recoup in Iraq.

What are the others....

Oh! Right! ISRAEL did it! So we would crack down on the Palesin...Oh...Wait...The new peace plan favors Palestine? Drat...Another argument down the tubes...



--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1585640 - 05/28/03 06:28 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Why, why, why, would Bush do such a thing?


I'm not going to say the same things that have already been said a bazillion times...either you believe he knew or you don't...there is evidence and there is motive...at the very least he should be investigated...at the very worst he should be shot for treason.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (05/28/03 06:29 PM)


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1585641 - 05/28/03 06:29 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Why, why, why, would Bush do such a thing? Honestly, I go through EVERY single arguement you people make around here, and NONE of them make sense....




Remember the "crazy conspiracy theory of the Looney Left"?? Well the "conspiracy" is now by in large the govt; and they have answered your question themselves, in the PNAC references in the original post.


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (05/28/03 06:30 PM)


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #1585650 - 05/28/03 06:30 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Right! The SAME thing has been said numerous times, and NONE of it makes any sense...You silly America-Haters...


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1585652 - 05/28/03 06:31 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

***sigh*** yeah...anyone that questions the blatant corruption of the U.S. government MUST be an America hater...

What part doesn't make sense to you?...Maybe I can clarify it for your blinded eyes...


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (05/28/03 06:32 PM)


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1585676 - 05/28/03 06:39 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Roosevelt knew about Pearl Harbor? Thats a new one by me...How do you figure? I've heard the whole "America MADE Japan Attack" arguement. And there's evidence that the Navy in Pearl Harbor had some advance warning, (A few hours) of the attack. But I've never heard that Roosevelt knew. Prove it?




You got it... http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/WOO203A.html


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1585719 - 05/28/03 06:55 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Figures....Right. But really, run it by me again. What's Bush's justification for 9/11?
His popularity? Hmph...Its almost down to pre-9/11.

Oh, he wanted a pretext to invade Iraq for oil money? Oh...wait...The Economy has lost more in the last 2 years than we'll possibly recoup in Iraq.

What are the others....

Oh! Right! ISRAEL did it! So we would crack down on the Palesin...Oh...Wait...The new peace plan favors Palestine? Drat...Another argument down the tubes...






Sit back relax and read all you can about it. Why do you feel you need to be decided on the issue?! Theres not enough facts either way. When it first happened and even a year later i wouldn't have thought bush knew, but alot of what i read poses questions that can't be answered. It makes me wonder....but who can say?


--------------------
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InvisibleEdame
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1586199 - 05/28/03 09:10 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


Oh, he wanted a pretext to invade Iraq for oil money? Oh...wait...The Economy has lost more in the last 2 years than we'll possibly recoup in Iraq.





Who do you mean by 'we'? The only people seeing that money (not that the US/UK has a right to it anyway) will be Bush and Blair's 'friends' in the oil industry as it goes through their companies and into their bank accounts. Why would they care about the (US) economy when their pockets are getting filled elsewhere?

The war cost billions, where does that money come from? Taxpayers (eventually). Who does it go to? Bush's 'defence contractor' friends. Iraq gets demolished, it's going to cost more to re-build it. Who's going to get paid to re-build it? More of Bush's friends. Where will the money come from to pay for construction? Iraq's oil (pumped and processed by Bush's friends). It's like a gigantic money funnel, all going straight to those in power.

What's Bush's motivation? Same as all of the despots and tyrants throughout history, more power, and more money.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Rono]
    #1586708 - 05/29/03 12:02 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Good Read...Actually...Rono constantly suprises me by being one of the few people who make outlandish claims...And then back it up. I'll hafta look over this and see if it makes any sense at all, like it appears to...

And Azomdeus..Its not like I'm a big fan of Bush, ya know? I mean, I'd like to see a commision to investigate 9/11, not because I think he did it, but because I think nobody is really clear on what happened that day. But SOMEONE needs to be the voice of disension, because unlike me and, I dont know, maybe you, 95% of the people posting here are 100% SURE that Bush KNEW! You hear them yelling it ALL the time.

And yeah, I dont think he did, so granted, I'm going to say that just as loud as the rest of you are saying he DID. But I'll agree with you...Who REALLY knows? Nobody, well, outside of Bush.

And on a side note...Say there was a Commission, a Congressional one or Supreme Court one, or whatever...And they studied the shit, and wrote a big long paper that said "President Bush had no fore-knowledge of the 9/11 attacks." Period. End of Story. Would you believe him? Of COURSE not. So why are you all calling for one? Not that I'm opposed to it, again. But why would you want one, if you only want them to tell you what you want to hear?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Anonymous

Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Edame]
    #1586761 - 05/29/03 12:16 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:


Oh, he wanted a pretext to invade Iraq for oil money? Oh...wait...The Economy has lost more in the last 2 years than we'll possibly recoup in Iraq.





Who do you mean by 'we'? The only people seeing that money (not that the US/UK has a right to it anyway) will be Bush and Blair's 'friends' in the oil industry as it goes through their companies and into their bank accounts. Why would they care about the (US) economy when their pockets are getting filled elsewhere?

The war cost billions, where does that money come from? Taxpayers (eventually). Who does it go to? Bush's 'defence contractor' friends. Iraq gets demolished, it's going to cost more to re-build it. Who's going to get paid to re-build it? More of Bush's friends. Where will the money come from to pay for construction? Iraq's oil (pumped and processed by Bush's friends). It's like a gigantic money funnel, all going straight to those in power.

What's Bush's motivation? Same as all of the despots and tyrants throughout history, more power, and more money.




You liberals are so stupid. Bush is an honest, hardworking man. He represents America's good intentions like homemade apple pie. He did this whole war to free the good people of Iraq. Didn't you watch fox news? They showed them take down the statue. This is a victory for everyone who wants freedom and liberty to all. God bless George W. Bush. The man is a true modern day American hero. I want everyone out there to spend the next minute praying for George W. Bush.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Rono]
    #1586893 - 05/29/03 12:53 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

There are links purporting to "prove" Roosevelt's prior knowledge; there are also links disproving it. I came across a good one a few months ago, but regrettably failed to bookmark it. I should have known better, since it is a topic that pops up here regularly. Too tired to search for it again tonight. Some other time.

The thing is, if one's natural inclination is to believe the worst of the US, one will post links such as the above. If the reverse is true, one will post links such as the one I read. Which version is the truth?

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Rono]
    #1586900 - 05/29/03 12:57 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Rono writes:

It's not like there isn't precedent for this kind of behaviour from a world leader....Churchill knew about the London bombing before it came...

What is your point? That Churchill somehow engineered the bombing? That Churchill could have prevented the bombing?

pinky


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1586903 - 05/29/03 12:57 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Another point - What would be Gee Dubs motive? Even if you belive that he is making America into a "police state" via reduction in personal freedoms, you'd have to concede that, even with a reelection, he'll be gone in 6 years. thats unchangable. That was part of the reason we have term limits, no dictator can take place for just 4 years.


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1587318 - 05/29/03 03:40 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

6 years is a long time, a lot can happen. Just look at how much the world has changed since 9/11/01. Considering the farce of the 2000 elections, can you really be so sure that the next guy is going to be any better (or that he's even going to be the one with the most votes)?


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


Edited by Edame (05/29/03 03:53 AM)


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Edame]
    #1587343 - 05/29/03 03:47 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

"The war cost billions, where does that money come from? Taxpayers (eventually). Who does it go to? Bush's 'defence contractor' friends."

Yeah this is what really pisses me off man! We're supposed to be in charge of the government..... I just don't see that as a reality


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1588876 - 05/29/03 03:26 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Another point - What would be Gee Dubs motive? Even if you belive that he is making America into a "police state" via reduction in personal freedoms, you'd have to concede that, even with a reelection, he'll be gone in 6 years. thats unchangable. That was part of the reason we have term limits, no dictator can take place for just 4 years.




All that means is that Dick Cheney or someone just as demented and evil (from whatever party) will take the oath of office in 2009.


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Phred]
    #1588959 - 05/29/03 03:50 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

There are links purporting to "prove" Roosevelt's prior knowledge; there are also links disproving it. I came across a good one a few months ago, but regrettably failed to bookmark it. I should have known better, since it is a topic that pops up here regularly. Too tired to search for it again tonight. Some other time.

The thing is, if one's natural inclination is to believe the worst of the US, one will post links such as the above. If the reverse is true, one will post links such as the one I read. Which version is the truth?

pinky




Valid point...but if all I have seen is the corruption, lies and secrecy of the U.S. government then what other standard do I have to judge them? Frankly I'm truly amazed that the general populace is so apathetic and blind to it all...


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Phred]
    #1588994 - 05/29/03 04:00 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rono writes:

It's not like there isn't precedent for this kind of behaviour from a world leader....Churchill knew about the London bombing before it came...

What is your point? That Churchill somehow engineered the bombing? That Churchill could have prevented the bombing?

pinky




My point was that there is precedent for a world leader allowing attacks to happen. I never even came close to claiming that Churchill engineered the bombing, nor did I ever say that Bush engineered 9/11...I am saying that they allowed them to happen...for very different reasons. The point is that governments are not above allowing their own civilians to die to further an agenda...history has shown us this, yet people still refuse to believe that their government would let that happen.


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Rono]
    #1589226 - 05/29/03 05:14 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

The point is that governments are not above allowing their own civilians to die to further an agenda...history has shown us this, yet people still refuse to believe that their government would let that happen.

Is there anything they wouldn't do to further thier own interests?  History shows alot worse than "allowing its citizens to die". :tongue:


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Rono]
    #1589446 - 05/29/03 06:06 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Rono writes:

My point was that there is precedent for a world leader allowing attacks to happen. I never even came close to claiming that Churchill engineered the bombing, nor did I ever say that Bush engineered 9/11...I am saying that they allowed them to happen...for very different reasons.

Rono, Rono, Rono.... *shakes head wearily*

Do us a favor and re-read what you wrote there. Does it not strike you as just a tad naive?

Your claim is that Churchill allowed the Blitz to take place? Have you ever bothered to read any of the history of World War II? Does the phrase "Battle of Britain" mean anything to you? What was Churchill supposed to do? Send a telegram to Adolf reading "Look here, old chap. I know we are at war and all that, but it would be ever so much nicer if you were to refrain from bombing London. Thank you for your co-operation"?

We all await with bated breath your explanation of precisely how Churchill could have prevented the Luftwaffe (in September of 1940, remember) from bombing pretty much wherever the fuck they felt like bombing.

pinky


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Phred]
    #1589456 - 05/29/03 06:08 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Well we do know jets should have been scrambled and that bush shoud have done more than he did. :smirk:


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Phred]
    #1589458 - 05/29/03 06:09 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Good lord pinky...quit trying to read so much into it. My point was simply that he allowed it to happen...would you agree with that point? Yes or No? There was no other point trying to be made.

The Brits had broken the Nazi code and were well aware of the forthcoming attack on London. But Churchill decided not to warn the public otherwise the Nazi's would have known that their code HAD been broken. I'm not judging his actions...simply stating that there is precedent.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (05/29/03 06:15 PM)


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1589486 - 05/29/03 06:15 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Azmodeus writes:

Well we do know jets should have been scrambled....

We do, do we?

Please provide us a single instance (any one will do) where the US has ever shot down a hijacked commercial airliner over US soil. Or anywhere, for that matter. Or even where any nation has ever shot down a hijacked commercial airliner. Or even a single instance where any hijacked commercial airliner has ever failed to land safely at an airport somewhere.

Face facts, dude -- if US warplanes had shot down those four airliners before they hit their intended targets, the howls of outrage would be far louder than the ones we are still hearing today over the failure of the US government to shoot them down. You can bet on it.

pinky


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Phred]
    #1589500 - 05/29/03 06:17 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Yes...it is required that fighter jets be scrambled in EVERY highjacking...it is standard procedure...where were they in this instance? When golfer Payne Stewart flew into restricted airspace a little while ago his plane was intercepted within minutes...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (05/29/03 06:18 PM)


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Rono]
    #1589520 - 05/29/03 06:24 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Rono writes:

My point was simply that he allowed it to happen...would you agree with that point?

Of course I don't agree. To deliberately use the word "allow" necessarily implies that one has the option of preventing whatever it is that is about to occur. You might just as well say that Chretien "allowed" the rain to fall today in Canada.

By deliberately comparing the Blitz with 9/11, you are implying that the situations are identical insofar as there being some action/s that both Churchill and Bush could have taken to avoid the catastrophes.

Clearly you are of the opinion that Bush could have prevented 9/11. Although we disagree on that point, I can at least understand why you believe what you do regarding this point. However, I fail to see how you (or anyone with an ounce of rationality) can honestly believe Churchill had any power to prevent the Blitz from taking place.

pinky


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Rono]
    #1589532 - 05/29/03 06:26 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Rono writes:

When golfer Payne Stewart flew into restricted airspace a little while ago his plane was intercepted within minutes...

What was the date of Payne Stewart's transgression?

pinky


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Phred]
    #1589538 - 05/29/03 06:27 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Scrambled not shot down and i don't think people wouldn't have minded so much if they were headed into the middle of a city.



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Lest we forget. "


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Phred]
    #1589563 - 05/29/03 06:33 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Fine..how would you like me to phrase it so that it passes your stringent literary standards? He knew the attacks were happening, and did not or could not stop the attack...what word would you use?


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Phred]
    #1589574 - 05/29/03 06:35 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

What was the date of Payne Stewart's transgression?



October 1999...WELL before 9/11 so obviously the policies were in place before the attacks.


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Rono]
    #1589635 - 05/29/03 06:48 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Rono writes:

Fine..how would you like me to phrase it so that it passes your stringent literary standards?

The thing is, there is no way to equate the two situations at all. In theory, (with better intelligence information) the four jets need never have been hijacked at all. However, there was absolutely no way that the Blitz could have been prevented.

He knew the attacks were happening, and did not or could not stop the attack...

I refer you once again to any history of the Battle of Britain. To say that he "did not or could not stop the attack" is just flat out wrong. Fighters were scrambled, many Luftwaffe bombers and their escorts were shot down, just as many Luftwaffe bombers and escorts who had previously been bombing miltary targets in England were shot down. Did some bombers still make it through? Yep. Does that mean Churchill did nothing? Nope.

pinky


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Phred]
    #1589661 - 05/29/03 06:51 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

And what are your veiws to jets not being scrambled?


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Lest we forget. "


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Phred]
    #1589713 - 05/29/03 06:57 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I think you are missing the point I am trying to make here Pinky...let me simplify it so as to not distract from what I am saying. There is precedent of Governments knowing about attacks happening prior to the actual attacks....

Churchill knew the attacks were coming.
Roosevelt knew the attacks were coming.
Bush knew the attacks were coming...and ALLOWED them to happen.



--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (05/29/03 07:00 PM)


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1589719 - 05/29/03 06:58 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Azmodeus writes:

Scrambled not shot down...

Think it through. If a hijacker on a suicide mission (i.e. the hijackers we are discussing) ignores the fighters he sees outside his window and keeps his course, what should the fighter do?

...and i don't think people wouldn't have minded so much if they were headed into the middle of a city.

No? You don't think there would have been people claiming that the pilot was merely re-crossing the city while trying to find and land at one of the many airports surrounding metropolitan New York? We disagree there, amigo.

Let's face it -- if the administration KNEW about the planned hijackings prior to the time the planes took off (as the conspiracy theorists claim), it would never have been necessary to scramble ANY jets. All that would have been necessary was to arrest the hijackers at the boarding gate.

If they didn't know about it till the time it was apparent that several near-simultaneous course deviations indicated a mass hijacking, then what is all the fuss about? The whole "scrambling jets" thing becomes moot, doesn't it?

pinky


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Phred]
    #1589754 - 05/29/03 07:02 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

All that would have been necessary was to arrest the hijackers at the boarding gate.


Not at all...if Bush wanted the attacks to happen then there would be no reason to arrest the highjackers.


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Rono]
    #1589762 - 05/29/03 07:03 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Rono writes:

Churchill knew the attacks were coming.

Agreed.

Roosevelt knew the attacks were coming.

So say some. Others say no. There is no compelling evidence one way or the other, and likely never will be.

Bush knew the attacks were coming.

So say some, with even less compelling evidence than those who try to argue that Roosevelt had advance warning of the Pearl Harbor attack.

However, you have finally gotten away from "allowed to happen." My job here is complete. Carry on.

pinky


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Phred]
    #1589784 - 05/29/03 07:06 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I think a better example would be the bombing of Coventry, rather than the Blitz. It's been written that Churchill knew in advance that it was going to be bombed, but deliberately didn't order the evacuation so that the Nazis wouldn't know that their code had been broken. It's been argued that Churchill wasn't actually told about this, but it's not contested that the Intelligence services knew, and that it was standard policy to warn the emergency services that an attack was likely.

So while they may not have been able to physically prevent the bombing from happening, they could still have evacuated the city. I would class a warning like that as prevention.

#edit#
Also, I didn't see anyone mentioning the jets having to shoot the planes down, just that they weren't scrambled. Regardless of whether or not the jets needed to shoot down the planes, if standard procedure dictates that the jets are launched, then they should be (and they weren't).


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


Edited by Edame (05/29/03 07:20 PM)


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Phred]
    #1589810 - 05/29/03 07:09 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Face facts, dude -- if US warplanes had shot down those four airliners before they hit their intended targets, the howls of outrage would be far louder than the ones we are still hearing today over the failure of the US government to shoot them down. You can bet on it.



How true.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Edame]
    #1589854 - 05/29/03 07:15 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

My Apologies...that was the example I was originally trying to make...Not London


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Phred]
    #1589894 - 05/29/03 07:21 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Azmodeus writes:

Well we do know jets should have been scrambled....

We do, do we?

Please provide us a single instance (any one will do) where the US has ever shot down a hijacked commercial airliner over US soil. Or anywhere, for that matter. Or even where any nation has ever shot down a hijacked commercial airliner. Or even a single instance where any hijacked commercial airliner has ever failed to land safely at an airport somewhere.



But he didn't say they should've been shot down. He said jets should've been scrambled. It's standard operating proceedure whenever an airliner goes off-course and loses radio contact. I don't know what they're supposed to do after that, but the fact that standard operating procedure was ignored indicates that something's not right here.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Edited by silversoul7 (05/29/03 07:23 PM)


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1590113 - 05/29/03 08:03 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

silversoul7 writes:

But he didn't say they should've been shot down. He said jets should've been scrambled. It's standard operating proceedure whenever an airliner goes off-course and loses radio contact.

Ah. Indeed, I was missing the distinction. Mea culpa.

Okay, then. Let's go with that. If this was the very first time (was it?) since the regulation about scrambling fighters took effect that fighters weren't scrambled for an airliner that has gone off course and lost radio contact, then we must decide whether it was a fuckup or whether there were deliberate orders to not scramble them. However, if there have been past instances of this occurring where fighters were not scrambled, then the task of proving that this time was more than just another fuckup becomes more difficult, does it not?

Can anyone provide a credible source on this point?

pinky


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Phred]
    #1590125 - 05/29/03 08:05 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I am willing to believe that it is a fuckup, but if it is, then the guys who fucked up should be courtmarshalled. As far as I know, no one has.


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1593841 - 05/30/03 05:40 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

No investigation either?


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Re: 9/11: The Smoking Gun? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1594269 - 05/30/03 07:44 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I believe there was an investigation, but it was headed by Henry Kissinger. Considering Kissinger's track record, I find that very suspicious.


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