Jokeshopbeard said:

Travel.

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DieCommie said:

Jokeshopbeard said:

Travel.

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I have heard this suggested many times and can certainly fathom it virtue.  But its not really doable for the average person.  Travel is a luxury of the rich.  Most people in the world have never flown and even most first worlders cannot afford the expense very often.  Its extremely difficult for the working class to afford the tickets, hotels, and time off.  Im sure traveling is great amd enriching.  Ill never afford it.

And in a way, its good that most people aren't flying around.  Dollar for dollar, flying is one of the most environmentally destructive things one can do.

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Curibea said:

DieCommie said:

Jokeshopbeard said:

Travel.

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I have heard this suggested many times and can certainly fathom it virtue.  But its not really doable for the average person.  Travel is a luxury of the rich.  Most people in the world have never flown and even most first worlders cannot afford the expense very often.  Its extremely difficult for the working class to afford the tickets, hotels, and time off.  Im sure traveling is great amd enriching.  Ill never afford it.

And in a way, its good that most people aren't flying around.  Dollar for dollar, flying is one of the most environmentally destructive things one can do.

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Vacation is for the rich, traveling is for the adventurous. You can get to many places without a single dollar or very few and still have a pretty good time.

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pineninja said:

Curibea said:

DieCommie said:

Jokeshopbeard said:

Travel.

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I have heard this suggested many times and can certainly fathom it virtue.  But its not really doable for the average person.  Travel is a luxury of the rich.  Most people in the world have never flown and even most first worlders cannot afford the expense very often.  Its extremely difficult for the working class to afford the tickets, hotels, and time off.  Im sure traveling is great amd enriching.  Ill never afford it.

And in a way, its good that most people aren't flying around.  Dollar for dollar, flying is one of the most environmentally destructive things one can do.

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Vacation is for the rich, traveling is for the adventurous. You can get to many places without a single dollar or very few and still have a pretty good time.

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Said by a person with freedom.to cross all borders.

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I guess that's sarcasm, but I don't even care

DividedQuantum said:

We tend to overlook our assumptions in our facile explanations of the conquest of the world by the white man. China, for example, had the world's most superior technology for thousands of years, and never felt the need to conquer anybody. It may be hard for some to believe, but not every civilization in the world, or even possibly the galaxy, must behave in the manner of Western man's.

Is conquest and unlimited growth a natural phenomenon? Or is it limited to particular cultures? In any case, most people in the Western world seem to feel it's fundamental, and rather obviously so, and I'm not so sure.

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Ghengis Kahn.
Asian that took over the majority of the known world.

pineninja said:

Maybe an assumption but definitely not sarcasm.
Was I wrong?

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Maybe, maybe not, I'm not even certain what we're talking about, I guess it's kind of hard to have an indirect conversation with someone I don't know. I guess if I'm prohibited to cross the border I'll just go thru the Rio Bravo

DividedQuantum said:

We tend to overlook our assumptions in our facile explanations of the conquest of the world by the white man. China, for example, had the world's most superior technology for thousands of years, and never felt the need to conquer anybody. It may be hard for some to believe, but not every civilization in the world, or even possibly the galaxy, must behave in the manner of Western man's.

Is conquest and unlimited growth a natural phenomenon? Or is it limited to particular cultures? In any case, most people in the Western world seem to feel it's fundamental, and rather obviously so, and I'm not so sure.

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pineninja said:

I'm talking about your distinction between a "vacation" and just "travelling" which is direct from the mouth of a westerner who takes their inherent position of power for granted.

Most in the world dont have the option of either and would likely regard them as the same and impossible.

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Near Dylan said:

DividedQuantum said:

We tend to overlook our assumptions in our facile explanations of the conquest of the world by the white man. China, for example, had the world's most superior technology for thousands of years, and never felt the need to conquer anybody. It may be hard for some to believe, but not every civilization in the world, or even possibly the galaxy, must behave in the manner of Western man's.

Is conquest and unlimited growth a natural phenomenon? Or is it limited to particular cultures? In any case, most people in the Western world seem to feel it's fundamental, and rather obviously so, and I'm not so sure.

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The quest for power and glory is a natural trait in everyone. Some more than others, obviously, and your environment influences it a lot.

However it was NOT  a "white man" trait at all. Every race on of every continent have long histories of conquests and battles for power.

What about Ghengis Khan? Persia? Timurids? The Amuyyads? The Inca? Ottoman Empire?
Did you forget about ISIS? The group of mostly brown people trying to take over the world right fucking now?

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DividedQuantum said:

Near Dylan said:

DividedQuantum said:

We tend to overlook our assumptions in our facile explanations of the conquest of the world by the white man. China, for example, had the world's most superior technology for thousands of years, and never felt the need to conquer anybody. It may be hard for some to believe, but not every civilization in the world, or even possibly the galaxy, must behave in the manner of Western man's.

Is conquest and unlimited growth a natural phenomenon? Or is it limited to particular cultures? In any case, most people in the Western world seem to feel it's fundamental, and rather obviously so, and I'm not so sure.

---

The quest for power and glory is a natural trait in everyone. Some more than others, obviously, and your environment influences it a lot.

However it was NOT  a "white man" trait at all. Every race on of every continent have long histories of conquests and battles for power.

What about Ghengis Khan? Persia? Timurids? The Amuyyads? The Inca? Ottoman Empire?
Did you forget about ISIS? The group of mostly brown people trying to take over the world right fucking now?

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But is the quest for power and glory a natural trait in everyone? Can you prove that? I am trying to suggest it may not be true, but boy is it a common assumption. I am not emphasizing white man traits, but whether the desire to conquer is a universal trait. So far, no one has provided any proof that every people in the history of the world tried to grow without limit.

What about Genghis Khan? The Inca give a perfect example of my point: they conquered neighboring tribes, let them live however they wanted as long as they acknowledged the supremacy of the Inca, and never conquered beyond their general territory. There were never any wars between the Maya and the Inca. Why???!!! If man is born to conquer without limit, there should have been a few. Instead, both the Inca and the Maya fought largely amongst themselves or their neighbors, and didn't go north or south to become hegemonic rulers of the Americas. That's what I'm getting at. Isn't there a difference between that -- and the conquest of the entire world?

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DieCommie said:

There is no reason to think that technological inferiority correlates with choosing to not expand.  You have been given numerous examples of expansion, and then just casually dismiss them as natural territory.  They are conquered and controlled territory.  Evidence has been given.  And they have all gone through periods of growth and shrinkage.

Also, no nation, tribe, empire, kingdom, etc has ever conquered the world.

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