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Offlinechemkid
Be excellent toeach other

Registered: 06/21/02
Posts: 506
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Re: The true nature of man [Re: Swami]
    #892091 - 09/18/02 10:10 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Then I guess we would be grabbing pocket change for a vendor that was more highly evolved than us. Damn.....evolution is a bitch isn't it?


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Registered: 06/25/01
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Re: The true nature of man [Re: chemkid]
    #893330 - 09/19/02 12:29 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

You say that there is no clear, definitive line where this difference occurs......this doesn't negate the difference none the less. 




I never denied there is a difference; there are many obvious differences However, a particular, *definable* difference between homo sapiens and all other species has not yet been found.

Quote:

Your argument reminds me of those old "Trick Infinity" questions that philosophers and mathematicians used to pose to suckers to hurt their brains, i.e. To get from point A to point B you must go at least half way. To get from point A to that half-way point you need to go at least half way (again). So on and so on. So you can see that this goes on for infinity so how can we ever get from point A to B since we can not walk forever (to infinity). 




Eeek... Those paradoxes scare me... but I don't think it's a parallel analogy. The distinction need not necessarily be an indivisable instant in time; it may have taken years, but for there to be a true distinction, it must have occured somewhere in history. My question is what happened during that time. Was it the development of a particular human trait? It doesn't hurt my brain to think about it because I don't insist it ever happened.

Quote:

am I rambling in a nonsensical fashion or are you following me 




A quite sensical fashion  :smile:; I follow.

Quote:

definite "real" definitions on what is right and wrong (not just a human invention for the sake of better living). I do believe in universal truths and unlike many in this forum I believe the ego/ID is something that has fantastic opportunity and ability and shouldn't be shed in the name of looking for enlightenment. Man is basically good eben though we do seem to make huge boo-boos like Nagasaki, Holocaust, slavery, and many more.




Why do you consider a human's definition of good "real" and a dolphin's not? I don't think any human has the capability of defining "good" or "bad" in an objective manner. I think each individual's definition of such things is ultimately unique. The 'boo-boos' you mentioned occured because certain people's definition of "good" and "bad" (e.g. Hitler) differed from yours and mine.

I think a complex mind (not unique to humans) will, throughout the course of evolution, inevitably establish schemas for concepts like "good or bad" and we are one of the MANY species that has done so. Even if we were the only species who had reached that point, I still don't think that would be The Distinction because it is only one of many schemas the mind has established.

Anyway I gotta go... let's keep this thread moving; it's a good one. I'd like to hear others' views, too. 


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

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Offlinechemkid
Be excellent toeach other

Registered: 06/21/02
Posts: 506
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Re: The true nature of man [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #893900 - 09/19/02 05:14 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

why must there be a definite instant in time where we became definably different? If you look at a color chart moving from one color of the rainbow to the next can you really say where one color starts and another ends? None the less these different colors exist even though you can't define where.

Why do you consider a human's definition of good "real" and a dolphin's not?

I consider them both real but they are not transferrable. What is right and wrong for a dolphin is not right and wrong for us. We are different animals thus have different rules. This is why we don't arrest the lion for killing the gazelle lol.


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: The true nature of man [Re: chemkid]
    #894018 - 09/19/02 06:20 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

In reply to:

why must there be a definite instant in time where we became definably different? If you look at a color chart moving from one color of the rainbow to the next can you really say where one color starts and another ends? None the less these different colors exist even though you can't define where.




I will repeat myself:

"The distinction need not necessarily be an indivisible instant in time; it may have taken years, but for there to be a true distinction, it must have occured somewhere in history. My question is what happened during that time. Was it the development of a particular human trait?"

The amount of time it took for us to become different is irrelevant. The point is, since all species currently living on earth ultimately evolved from the same single-celled organism (IOW we had the same starting point), then for The Distinction to exist, something must have happened in our evolutionary process that did not happen in the evolutionary process of any other species. What was it? It doesn't have to be distilled down to an event that made us different; we need not even figure out when it happened; we need only to identify what this defining difference is. I don't believe morality is that difference, because I don't think it is unique to humans. I have explained why I think that previously, but I do it again in a different way below.

Why do you consider a human's definition of good "real" and a dolphin's not?

In reply to:

I consider them both real but they are not transferrable. What is right and wrong for a dolphin is not right and wrong for us. We are different animals thus have different rules.




I agree, but this says nothing about The Distinction you allege. The dolphins may have at some point developed a concept they know as EeEEeEEeE-EEEEeeeEe-EeEe (imagine dolphin sounds) which is just as significant to them as our supposedly unique "right-wrong-good-bad" concept is to us. This means that your assertion is not correct; our ability to tell right from wrong DOES NOT make us special or distinct from other species. What we know as morality is just another example of a mental schema; something NOT UNIQUE to humans.

The question still remains unanswered: what makes humans something distinctly more or different than just more highly evolved chimps?

---------------------------------------------

What does everyone else think? Are humans something distinctly different than other animals? Are we just the most intelligent animal or are we something else?


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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Offlinechemkid
Be excellent toeach other

Registered: 06/21/02
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Re: The true nature of man [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #894221 - 09/19/02 07:49 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Let me start off by saying that it is sad we can't get some fresh input from other minds on this interesting debate....anyway, we are doing fine on our own :grin:


I see what you are driving at finally (I think). Unfortunately my answer to your question will lead to another age old stalemate (refer to Sclorch's post) the existence Vs. nonexistence of God. In my opinion the great distinction is that when we finally evolved into "rational" people God bestowed souls upon us. This is why there is a set of guidelines that almost seems inate (topic also worthy of debate. Maybe we can start a new thead)

At this particular point in time I hate to give this answer for I fear you will feel I am copping out of the debate, but unfortunately for this debate, in the end my beliefs rest in ideals that can't be proven (in the conventional sense).

Let me pose a question to you:  Do you truely feel that we are simply more highly evolved? Don't you just sense that there is something more to us other than evolutionarily lucky bastards? (UHHHH  OOOOOOOHH.......many are thinking right now.....this egocentric bastard.......he is so caught up in the same conceited crap that lead us to believe that we were the center of the universe at one time. Sorry guys, but as I stated, the EGO can be a good thing if you're not blinded by it) 


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: The true nature of man [Re: chemkid]
    #894964 - 09/20/02 05:54 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

In reply to:

At this particular point in time I hate to give this answer for I fear you will feel I am copping out of the debate, but unfortunately for this debate, in the end my beliefs rest in ideals that can't be proven (in the conventional sense).




You are correct; we have finally reached a stalemate in our game of cosmic mind chess. We definately need more opinions here. I suggest you change the thread title to "The true nature of man - FREE NAKED TITS!"

In reply to:

Let me pose a question to you: Do you truely feel that we are simply more highly evolved? Don't you just sense that there is something more to us other than evolutionarily lucky bastards?




I used to think there was more to us, because that's the common belief, until I really challenged that assumption. We seem different because we are us. We are taught to believe we are different, and we assume no type of spirituality is possible in other species. Since I realized we're all just animals, I have not gone sport fishing once. I can no longer justify it. I still throw rocks at old people though.



--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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InvisibleEcoFreako
Non-Threatening

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 122
Loc: BC, CAN.
Re: The true nature of man [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #896982 - 09/21/02 07:57 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Bravo Cyberchump!...well placed and articulate thoughts...I concur 100% our realities, behaviour, definitions are instinctual...and without learning any of the things that bring us to these simple, but tough, conclusions, man may as well be 1000's of years ago, our timeline is meaningless, state of mind is everything.  Dont we need a one book primer in grade school? 1.humans are animals 2 animals have instincts, ect.
The gulf or unhealthy culture belief you stated (man in image of god, uprooting our sense of place in nature), obviously needs to be mended....my thoughts are only addicted to how and in what fashion this would be most efficiently absorbed...these insights, 'new' understandings, big pictures,...incorporated overtop, at least presently, the enormous wave of human instinct-driven information and belief.  If some can get the insights of relatedness to all creatures DESPITE propaganda in the other direction, the potential has to be there for masses to subscribe...blah, too stoned to string this meaningfuly,  fuck 'history' and 'math' being fed to children.., try psychology, ecology, eco-feminism, anthropology, keys to understand what we are, where we live, why we act the way we do, simple concise full-spectrum models of info delivery, passifism and pot!
Oh theres so much to learn and to unlearn.  People please focus on the neccessity of unlearning as important as leaning. Alex, there is plenty of backed up theory that we wiped out neandrethals, swami; I thought we WERE the cromags? No more opposition to the natural world, no more denial of our animal selves, no more closed eyes to the complex, emotive and EVOLVED brother and sister animals, no more driving cars!  Watch more nature shows!  Go to a bar sober!  sorry to foul up the thread  :tongue: :tongue: :tongue:  --Ec0 


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Mmmm....permaculture....


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Registered: 09/14/02
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Re: The true nature of man [Re: chemkid]
    #897082 - 09/21/02 11:23 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I'm too lazy to read this whole thread, so I'm not sure if what I'm about to say has been said before here, but this is my take on things....

man is basically selfish. we are animals, we have basic instincts to survive and reproduce. even altruistic behavior is displayed (maybe not entirely, but certainly in part) not by true selflessness and concern for other people, but the fear of being ostracized by one's community. you can't go around stealing and kicking people around, or you won't get to pass on your genes with some nice girl/boy.

but in extreme situations, altruism and proper behavior play second fiddle to our most basic urges

when the inhabitants of Easter island began overpopulating, overhunting, and overcutting their forest, people began to die off from starvation. what did they do to solve this when it got to the extreme? cannibalism.

when survival becomes urgent, people can turn on each other in the blink of an eye.


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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