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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
#5338149 - 02/25/06 02:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said: So then, are you saying that might makes right?
I'm saying that "right" is an abstract concept that we ourselves create and imply. The fact that we take the right demonstrates that we have a right to do so. Simple?
If you are suggesting that you do not feel that we should have the right to take ownership, then that's another thing entirely.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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psyka
Praetorian


Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
#5338179 - 02/25/06 02:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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If we were a nomadic tribe then there would be no need for property. If the system was not in place, we would be conquering each other through violence instead of money.
I'm sure you wouldn't want me to start a bonfire on your well manicured lawn, would you?
-------------------- As the life of a candle, my wick will burn out. But, the fire of my mind shall beam into infinite.

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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum


Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
#5338446 - 02/25/06 04:23 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Well maybe the question isn't "do we have the right" as much as "could we come up with a better system."
I think it is totally ass backwards the way you can own vast stretches of forest and other people aren't allowed to be on your property. I went backpacking in England, and it was totally chill. A lot of trails went right through farms, and you'd be hiking into someone's backyard and they would be all like "oh cheers! Just close the fence behind you after you're gone." In the US, in most forested areas if you wander onto someones property they greet you with a shotgun.
It stinks because with our system of ownership only one person gets to use land that we could all benefit from. Bring back the regulated commons.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: psyka]
#5338729 - 02/25/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Maybe nomadism could be a soultion. I mean I came to think about it hundreds of times, there are actually people which have no clue regarding their planet. They don't know and they don't care. I fnd it essential to know as much as you can about it, to get a taste of every place and culture, ideas and people. And maybe after doing that, one being able to realize that there's no need for all that greed.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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eligal
Noobie


Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 7,021
Loc: California
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
#5339061 - 02/25/06 08:10 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said: People didn't always think this way.
yes they did.
-------------------- \m/ Spanksta \m/ "do you have the freedom to do with your nervous system what you want?" "MolokoMilkPlus said: I'll respect you if you let me give you a blow job" "tactik said: respect the can."
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: eligal]
#5339065 - 02/25/06 08:11 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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False.
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eligal
Noobie


Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 7,021
Loc: California
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
#5339732 - 02/25/06 11:07 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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not false.
-------------------- \m/ Spanksta \m/ "do you have the freedom to do with your nervous system what you want?" "MolokoMilkPlus said: I'll respect you if you let me give you a blow job" "tactik said: respect the can."
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: eligal]
#5339878 - 02/26/06 12:37 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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You, sir, are extremely ignorant of history.
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justamonkey
Stranger


Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 292
Loc: Upstairs
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
#5339885 - 02/26/06 12:43 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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IF you pay for dirt, that's your own choice. If you pay for what you intend to do with that dirt, well, that's another thing entirely.
-------------------- [quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda
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justamonkey
Stranger


Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 292
Loc: Upstairs
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: justamonkey]
#5339890 - 02/26/06 12:45 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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The number two cause of war between primitive cultures, land disputes. The number one cause, religion. The number three cause, Paradigm's method of knowing exactly what he's talking about.
-------------------- [quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda
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eligal
Noobie


Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 7,021
Loc: California
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
#5340133 - 02/26/06 03:19 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said: You, sir, are extremely ignorant of history.
tell us when we did not think like this
-------------------- \m/ Spanksta \m/ "do you have the freedom to do with your nervous system what you want?" "MolokoMilkPlus said: I'll respect you if you let me give you a blow job" "tactik said: respect the can."
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: gluke bastid]
#5340169 - 02/26/06 04:56 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
gluke bastid said: It stinks because with our system of ownership only one person gets to use land that we could all benefit from. Bring back the regulated commons.
I get upset that a numerous amount of people could all benefit from using my neighbor's car, but yet only one person, my neighbor, with our system of ownership, is entitled to use it. 
I also get upset that myself and my girlfriend are the only ones who are entitled to occupy the house we rent when all of the criminals that roam the night could benefit from occupying the house as well. It stinks that they aren't allowed to camp out in my back yard, glaring at me through my window. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: eligal]
#5340395 - 02/26/06 09:25 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
eligal said:
Quote:
Paradigm said: You, sir, are extremely ignorant of history.
tell us when we did not think like this
Well, for starters, they definitely did not think like this when there were no permanent settlements. And although permanent settlements developed during the agricultural revolution, they did not conceptualize land as a commodity the way we do now. In fact, the concept of land ownership has changed over time quite a bit. It was different in feudal times too. Our modern conception of land ownership has been around only for as long as capitalism has been around(since the Renaissance). This is not to say that other conceptions of it were not as bad. In fact, the capitalist conception of land ownership was somewhat of an improvement over that of the feudal system. But still, both systems were a perversion of how people had traditionally understood the Earth, and our relationship to it.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
#5340446 - 02/26/06 09:43 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
gluke bastid said: It stinks because with our system of ownership only one person gets to use land that we could all benefit from. Bring back the regulated commons.
I get upset that a numerous amount of people could all benefit from using my neighbor's car, but yet only one person, my neighbor, with our system of ownership, is entitled to use it. 
I also get upset that myself and my girlfriend are the only ones who are entitled to occupy the house we rent when all of the criminals that roam the night could benefit from occupying the house as well. It stinks that they aren't allowed to camp out in my back yard, glaring at me through my window. 
Your car and your house are both the products of human effort. They therefore are fair game for being bought and sold. Land, however, is not created by human effort. In fact, human effort would not be possible in the first place without land. To equate the two is the very sin that our society commits. Cars and houses are subject to the economic law of supply and demand. That is, as more people demand more cars and houses, the manufacturers and builders comply by building more. But who's creating more land as demand rises? No one. The supply remains the same while demand increases.
And not all land is equal, either, which is why some land costs more than others. The price differences usually have to do with services rendered by others(i.e. government services, availability of jobs, etc.). And it's not simply a matter of getting what you pay for, because the land rises in value as more people move to a certain place, meaning that those who get there earlier will see their property value shoot up as others are dispersed onto less valuable land.
Now, I'm not saying we should all get to occupy the same space of land. That would be an impossibility. What I am saying is that if we cannot all share the same land, we should at least have an equal share in the benefits of the land(which is capitalized into property values). Land must be treated as an important resource for us all, rather than a commodity for those who can afford it.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
#5340529 - 02/26/06 10:22 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said:
Your car and your house are both the products of human effort. They therefore are fair game for being bought and sold. Land, however, is not created by human effort.
Land, however, is maintained by human effort, in order to have use for us. This has set the course for humans to develop their sense of ownership of the land which they maintain.
Quote:
Cars and houses are subject to the economic law of supply and demand. That is, as more people demand more cars and houses, the manufacturers and builders comply by building more. But who's creating more land as demand rises? No one. The supply remains the same while demand increases.
Would you agree that the law of supply and demand is applicable to oil, as well? No one is creating more oil as demand rises and the supply diminshes. The fact that land can be considered a non-renewable resource thus makes it not subject to supply and demand?
Quote:
And not all land is equal, either, which is why some land costs more than others.
Which is based on the natural fact that some land potentially has more use for us than others. Land in Antartica is naturally less useful for ourselves to be capable of sustaining an existance on. The fact that we need certain conditions in order to survive implies that different aspects of our environment are of more value to our life than others.
Quote:
And it's not simply a matter of getting what you pay for, because the land rises in value as more people move to a certain place, meaning that those who get there earlier will see their property value shoot up as others are dispersed onto less valuable land.
Natural events produce changes in the amount of value a land offers ourselves as well. I can imagine that many wars were fought by different organizations of humans seeking to migrate to different lands as something affected the quality of living on theirs. 
Quote:
What I am saying is that if we cannot all share the same land, we should at least have an equal share in the benefits of the land(which is capitalized into property values).
A man who tills his land and performs fieldwork in order to raise forth a bountiful crop harvest from his land has the right to his crop equal to as much effort he expended into the manipulation of his land in order to produce that crop. The benefits of the land result from human effort.
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Land must be treated as an important resource for us all, rather than a commodity for those who can afford it.
Land is only an important, vital resource to us when we invest human effort into productive usage of that land. Our conceptual system that has resulted from this principle performs the task of providing land to those who invest the human effort into maintaining it.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
#5340560 - 02/26/06 10:34 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: Land, however, is maintained by human effort, in order to have use for us. This has set the course for humans to develop their sense of ownership of the land which they maintain.
No, actually it sets the course for a sense of stewardship of the land.
Quote:
Would you agree that the law of supply and demand is applicable to oil, as well? No one is creating more oil as demand rises and the supply diminshes. The fact that land can be considered a non-renewable resource thus makes it not subject to supply and demand?
Oil should also social responsibility, as should any natural resource.
Quote:
Which is based on the natural fact that some land potentially has more use for us than others. Land in Antartica is naturally less useful for ourselves to be capable of sustaining an existance on. The fact that we need certain conditions in order to survive implies that different aspects of our environment are of more value to our life than others.
While that's true to some extent, land prices correspond more to social forces than natural ones.
Quote:
Natural events produce changes in the amount of value a land offers ourselves as well. I can imagine that many wars were fought by different organizations of humans seeking to migrate to different lands as something affected the quality of living on theirs. 
Your point being?
Quote:
A man who tills his land and performs fieldwork in order to raise forth a bountiful crop harvest from his land has the right to his crop equal to as much effort he expended into the manipulation of his land in order to produce that crop. The benefits of the land result from human effort.
Right, but the majority of benefits from land come not from the human effort of the person living on it, but from society. If a new shopping center opens up near my house, my property value shoots up, making me much wealthier. But what did I do to reap that benefit?
Quote:
Land is only an important, vital resource to us when we invest human effort into productive usage of that land. Our conceptual system that has resulted from this principle performs the task of providing land to those who invest the human effort into maintaining it.
Maintaining land is not that difficult, and certainly does not account for the vast majority of wealth people derive from it.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
#5340718 - 02/26/06 11:36 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said:
No, actually it sets the course for a sense of stewardship of the land.
History demonstrates to the contrary.
Quote:
While that's true to some extent, land prices correspond more to social forces than natural ones.
Social forces derived from natural forces, certainly, resulting from the system we have established in regards to land ownership.
Quote:
Your point being?
Our individual concepts of the right to own land conflicted with others, of course. I believe the ones who won the war maintained their right to own it in regards to others?
Quote:
Right, but the majority of benefits from land come not from the human effort of the person living on it, but from society. If a new shopping center opens up near my house, my property value shoots up, making me much wealthier. But what did I do to reap that benefit?
It is the human effort responsible for that person living on that land that has put them in the position to reap the benefits of societal effort (as in, the network of human effort ).
Quote:
Maintaining land is not that difficult, and certainly does not account for the vast majority of wealth people derive from it.
How do you figure that? What does maintaining land mean to you?
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
#5341902 - 02/26/06 05:18 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
History demonstrates to the contrary.
Considering the numerous concepts of land that have existed throughout history, I fail to see how the very nature of land would lead inevitably to a particular point of view.
Quote:
It is the human effort responsible for that person living on that land that has put them in the position to reap the benefits of societal effort (as in, the network of human effort)
Precisely. It is not individual human effort, but collective human effort which contributes to land value. Thus, society should collectively reap its rewards.
Quote:
How do you figure that? What does maintaining land mean to you?
I should ask you the same thing.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
#5344815 - 02/27/06 10:35 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said: Considering the numerous concepts of land that have existed throughout history, I fail to see how the very nature of land would lead inevitably to a particular point of view.
Then why assert something like this?
Quote:
No, actually it sets the course for a sense of stewardship of the land.
Quote:
Precisely. It is not individual human effort, but collective human effort which contributes to land value. Thus, society should collectively reap its rewards.
It does. As an individual who is an aspect of a society, society reaps the rewards through him. The reward he receives is distributed elsewhere through the network of society that humans create through the manners in which they interact with each other. An individual uses its resources in ways that benefit others. It is our individual choice to use the resources we have attained.
Quote:
I should ask you the same thing.
Maintanence of the land is utilizing it. Be it farming it, residing upon it, building a supermarket on it, collecting money for others to reside or to build upon it, designate it as a wildlife preserve, etc. etc. etc. Manipulating the land in order to collect resources.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
#5344993 - 02/27/06 11:49 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I would love to see which method would bear the most respect for the land. I only can imagine, that singular ownership is not good for the land, because there is only one single interest for and from the land, which will easily lead to depletion. Multiple interests seem a better way to force respect for our planet. But the western cultural system will revert everything into monetary interests leading to the words of 'who may buy, or who may sell'. Leading to egocentric and selfish doom of humanity, as ownership is simply a construct of our ego.
Edited by BlueCoyote (02/27/06 11:55 AM)
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