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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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loyality in nature
    #4342164 - 06/27/05 09:24 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I didn't know this before, but a Swan female mattes with only one male, and if the male is killed, she never mattes again.

Really interesting, promiscuity is not the only natural way of behaviour. Marriage, or other forms of life-time bond are not so unnatural


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: loyality in nature [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4342325 - 06/27/05 11:08 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Often true of Coyotes also. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: loyality in nature [Re: Icelander]
    #4342744 - 06/27/05 01:34 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

sometimes as a human i find myself struggling with the disloyalty of members of my own species


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: loyality in nature [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4342748 - 06/27/05 01:36 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, that's cool. Does the male also doesn't mate again if the female is killed ?

I often wonder, if the material purpose of such behaviour (even if the partner is still alive) surpluses the benefits of a maximal diversification of genes ?

It's for me like a sign for the stability of a universal duality and it's such a great picture for a romance :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: loyality in nature [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4342924 - 06/27/05 02:26 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I believe that a small community of swans have a certain male, and they all stick together, so if the community loses its male, they won't replace him with another, but this male mattes with other females in this community (probably 2-3 females). It is polygamy but loyal polygamy.

And if everyone of these females is killed and the male is left alone, he can't matte because other "marriages" won't accept him, and new forming "marriages" probably would accept a younger male.
So I guess he is finished too, but don't know if that's because he doesn't want to matte or because h can't


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: loyality in nature [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4343020 - 06/27/05 02:45 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

If you're referring to marriage among homo sapiens, then let me tell you that such relationship is purely a social aspect. In the absence of society our behavior would be promiscuous and polygamous.

Swan's behavior is purely natural and instinctive. Regarding mankind, it doesn't prove anything besides the fact that such kind of relations with other members of our specie are purely artificial.

But, aren't social structures, in part, a man made version of natural structures ? :wink:

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: loyality in nature [Re: MAIA]
    #4343059 - 06/27/05 02:51 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

How do you know that without society there would be no loyality? Jelousy is an emotion that apperas even at early age


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I command your very souls you unbelievers
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Re: loyality in nature [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4343098 - 06/27/05 03:00 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)



"Natural" monogamy has little to do with human emotional attachments. As a selected genetic trait, it appears in only 10% of mammals, but 90% of bird species.

Swans form pair bonds not because they are jealous, but because it ensures genetic success. We romanticize this behavior and demonize our own "promiscuity," but neither judgment is relevant here.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: loyality in nature [Re: Veritas]
    #4343121 - 06/27/05 03:06 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

You say Swans do it not because they are jealous, but because it benefits their genetics..

Are you suggesting that they are aware of their genetics and do that by choice? Of course they are jealous, that is how everything in nature works: emotions and instincts.

They are not some scientist birds that figure out what is best for their gene pool, they just do what they feel, without being aware of it


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: loyality in nature [Re: Veritas]
    #4343209 - 06/27/05 03:26 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

That was my question: Is it better for the genes, to let the individuums stay together for a lifetime, or just spread your genes with most possible partners, so that the diversity at least allows your part of the genes to survive ?

I think, it depends on the circumstances of the specific species.

I like it very much, if the circumstances of a species see it more positive for the genes, to let the individuums stay together.
That is a romance ! :flowers:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: loyality in nature [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4343218 - 06/27/05 03:29 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

both have their advantages. Faster evolution comes with spreading genes wherever possible, security against diseases is the advantage of sticking to same partners.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: loyality in nature [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4343241 - 06/27/05 03:34 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
How do you know that without society there would be no loyality? Jelousy is an emotion that apperas even at early age




Jealousy is an expression that only denotes a sense of possession, manifested on many animals. I could be jealous of my only partner as i could be jealous of my 5 partners.
IMHO, jealousy has little to do with a polygamous/monogamous relationship.
Loyalty in this context, is not only the result of a pure and immaculate monogamous behavior. On many polygamous societies, loyalty is considered existent inside the familiar aggregate where many women coexist with one man and share their resources.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: loyality in nature [Re: MAIA]
    #4343255 - 06/27/05 03:37 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

This thread is not about monogamy vs. polygamy, it's about loyality in either polygamy or monogamy.
If I'm not mistaking, swans also live in polygamy, it's just that females stay faithfull to their male till death.

My point was that being faithfull (in monogamy and polygamy) in not always unnatural behaviour in nature


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: loyality in nature [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4343353 - 06/27/05 03:58 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Ah, that has, most signifficantly, to do with the bearing and growing up of the childs...
Or do you also mean loyality like in hunnting-prides ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: loyality in nature [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4343354 - 06/27/05 03:58 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

My point was that being faithfull (in monogamy and polygamy) in not always unnatural behaviour in nature




Agree but not completely.

The "unnaturality" of human behavior is that we can choose to be either polygamous or monogamous. Animals are naturally programed to live in only one way, and any exception to the rule is surely more of an imposition related with the reproduction of the specie rater than a choice. The only imposition we have are social rules.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: loyality in nature [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4343361 - 06/27/05 04:01 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

A genetically-linked trait is selected because those members of the species who possess said trait are more likely to survive and successfully raise their offspring to sexual maturity.

Of course the swans do not "choose" to do what is good for their genetics! However, if non-pair-bonded swans hatch cygnets who are more vulnerable to predators, their genetic traits are less likely to be passed on to future generations.

Perhaps they are "jealous," but nothing I have read about swan behavior conveys this image to me. They pair-bond by choice, because they are descended from swans who pair-bonded. If jealousy were the motivating factor, why would widowed swans grieve for years after the death of their life-mate? Why would they build a nest season after season, yet reject all potential suitors, as if waiting for the return of their mate? Because their grandparents did.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: loyality in nature [Re: MAIA]
    #4343384 - 06/27/05 04:07 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

That's simply variations on the theme caused by social factors. Real choice would be to chose wheather to live sexually or not.
Most of the cases where people give up on their sexuality are caused by some frustration or something like that, but not by simple choice, just for the heck of it.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: loyality in nature [Re: Veritas]
    #4343392 - 06/27/05 04:09 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
A genetically-linked trait is selected because those members of the species who possess said trait are more likely to survive and successfully raise their offspring to sexual maturity.

Of course the swans do not "choose" to do what is good for their genetics! However, if non-pair-bonded swans hatch cygnets who are more vulnerable to predators, their genetic traits are less likely to be passed on to future generations.

Perhaps they are "jealous," but nothing I have read about swan behavior conveys this image to me. They pair-bond by choice, because they are descended from swans who pair-bonded. If jealousy were the motivating factor, why would widowed swans grieve for years after the death of their life-mate? Why would they build a nest season after season, yet reject all potential suitors, as if waiting for the return of their mate? Because their grandparents did.




so then that's not, really a choice now is it? They do it because it is in their genes, and how do these genes manipulate them to do that? By making the feel the urge to do it (like any other behaviour)
This urge also causes the anti-urge when it comes to deviation from that bhaviour. In other words, the urge to do it would make them object if the other partner decides not to do it. That's jealousy


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: loyality in nature [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4343539 - 06/27/05 04:48 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
so then that's not, really a choice now is it? They do it because it is in their genes, and how do these genes manipulate them to do that? By making the feel the urge to do it (like any other behaviour)
This urge also causes the anti-urge when it comes to deviation from that bhaviour. In other words, the urge to do it would make them object if the other partner decides not to do it. That's jealousy




However, in swans this trait is so strongly selected that their mate never chooses to break the pair-bond. Thus no jealousy.

Also, their behavior is not necessarily emotion-based. Instinct plays a much larger role in the non-primate's brain function. Instinctive behavior is removed from the choice-making process: it operates on a reflexive level. So they may bond exclusively not because they have an "urge" to, but because it is how they are.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: loyality in nature [Re: Veritas]
    #4343560 - 06/27/05 04:56 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Well ok, instincts work on a more dyrect level, but they serve the same purpuse as emotions. Only approach is different.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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