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InvisibleSilversoul
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Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature
    #5335325 - 02/24/06 03:42 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

When did people get the idea that this planet we all live on is something that can be conquered and partitioned among the elite? Why is it that someone can hold a piece of land for randsom when they had no part in creating it? People didn't always think this way. People used to have a concept of stewardship over the Earth, rather than ownership. Earth, our celestial mother, should not be conquered and sold to the highest bidder. It is our common inheritance, and we should treat it as such.


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InvisibleNariusFractal
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
    #5335351 - 02/24/06 03:50 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Don't know when it started, but I'm sure the ancient Egyptians were one of the first to do it.  They were the first to have surveyors!  I'm a surveyor, and every day all I do is find/establish/prove boundaries.  Which is ironic, since I'm drawn to mushrooms that dissolve boundaries. :smile:

The partitioning of land is nothing new.  Detailed records are kept concerning such divisions in the county clerk of court's office near you.


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You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: NariusFractal]
    #5335392 - 02/24/06 04:05 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, it's true that as long as there have been permanent settlements, there has been a need for a land on which to build. But what is a somewhat newer is the idea of absentee land ownership -- that you can own land without actually using it yourself, and extort money out of people for the right to use it. The Iroquois had quite a different system: you could take a piece of land on which to grow crops and live, but as soon as you abandoned it, it was up for grabs. The idea that land could be bought and sold was ludicrous to them.


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InvisibleFungusMan
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
    #5335583 - 02/24/06 05:31 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

It still happens, just in a different way. Then, the mode of living was harvesting and hunting, today its acquiring money to feed and house yourself. If we don't pay taxes, sometimes it results in said properties becoming forfeit. "Up for grabs" so to say.We are mammals. 99% of land mammals are territorial.

It's in our "nature" to be that way. Do natural predators worry about eating natural prey into extinction? No. They care about eating,lol. Whether it is a carnivorous mammal or an herbivore. It's just "natural" for us to be this way.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
    #5335590 - 02/24/06 05:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

There's nothing wrong in having "your own place". We shouldn't blame the entire process, which comes from needs - needs from having something to protect you when it rains, cold out side or it snows, to needs like privacy and intimacy -.
What is wrong is what it came to. I'm not naming the problems because we all know them and It would be just a waste of time, problems which have several reasons as the loss of sense of adventure like changing your place, the greed, the uncertainty which leads of feeling the urge to rule and dominate and so on.
We did it to ourselves throughout the history and we still do it. And it won't stop until we come clear with ourselves. Until we learn to appreciate the real values in life and until we get rid of fear.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleFungusMan
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #5335622 - 02/24/06 05:40 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

In most socially progressed mammals, there is a structure of hierarchy or alpha members. We put this off to nothing more than him wanting to pass on his genes before the rest of the males. But, what other expressions does he exhibit? Well, he also eats first. Isn't this "greed"?

And like I said. Do they limit they're intake of surrounding prey? No. If they eat all they can hunt in an area, they move on to another. Hell, even dogs lay claim to a territory they might never see again in their life. Its just the effect of self preservation. Not societal preservation.

In a sense, to sum it all up...it's just natural for us to be this way. We are no smarter than the animals we "own".


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: FungusMan]
    #5335891 - 02/24/06 07:48 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not saying we can't stake out our own place to build and to work, but it is the idea that that place is forever ours regardless of whether or not we use it that is against nature. It is true that many animals will mark their territory, but when they move on, they leave that site behind, and others move in. Meanwhile, if someone buys an empty plot of land, he doesn't have to make any use of it himself in order to hang onto it. The government will back up his claim to that fallow land. And he can charge others to use it, or keep it out of use while it appreciates in value(due to development being forced outward) until he decides to sell it at a higher price than he paid for it, despite not having put any effort of his own into it. There is a difference between staking out a piece of land for personal use vs. holding it for randsom.


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
    #5335995 - 02/24/06 08:35 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
There is a difference between staking out a piece of land for personal use vs. holding it for randsom.




with so many people subscribing to the existence of capitalism. u have to expect EVERYTHING to be for sale. people today are born indebted to society. there is no space left. they are born on private property. they may own themselves but their livelyhoods are costly.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Offlinerobmac9090
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: BleaK]
    #5336587 - 02/25/06 12:04 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I don't have a problem with people owning a piece of the earth, whether they use it personally or not, mainly due to the fact that because they own it, they have an incentive to improve it. I always think back to the 'tragedy of the commons', where a resource shared by all ends up being exploited because nobody has any incentive to make sure that it stays in good condition. Without ownership, and the enforcement of ownership, the earth would literally be pillaged by people looking for short term gain until nothing was left.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: robmac9090]
    #5336764 - 02/25/06 01:01 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I suspect that in this thread, I'll have to repeatedly drive home the point about property vs. possession.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
    #5336785 - 02/25/06 01:07 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

BTW, while many people are aware of the tragedy of the commons, few are aware of the equally dangerous tragedy of the anticommons. BTW, Garrett Hardin once said that if he knew so many people would abuse the phrase "tragedy of the commons," he would have renamed his essay "Tragedy of the Unregulated Commons," as he himself was quite critical of the institution of land ownership.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
    #5337035 - 02/25/06 02:29 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I may simply be ignorant of the subject, but aside from any ethical considerations, it seems like its workin fine.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5337039 - 02/25/06 02:31 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
I may simply be ignorant of the subject, but aside from any ethical considerations, it seems like its workin fine.



If you think so, I suggest reading The Losses of Nations by Fred Harrison. You might be particularly interested in the section on how land speculation crippled Japan's economy.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
    #5337046 - 02/25/06 02:38 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I shall add it to my que.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
    #5337162 - 02/25/06 04:44 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
When did people get the idea that this planet we all live on is something that can be conquered and partitioned among the elite?  Why is it that someone can hold a piece of land for randsom when they had no part in creating it? 




People got this idea when they attempted to do so and were successful in doing so. Why is it? Because we have the ability to identify an aspect of reality, assert that it is within our possession, and form a system that confirms it in regards to anyone else that is capable of doing the same thing, be it by holding a gun or creating a system of laws and regulations that make it so.

Does that clear it up? :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
    #5337169 - 02/25/06 04:53 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

empowerment..


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Disclaimer!?


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
    #5337232 - 02/25/06 06:57 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

You're right, we have abused our privelages, and as a result, we have become terribly unbalanced as a whole. Its a lesson to be learned (already learned, for some). Balance will be in order, soon. Its kind of hard to keep almost 7 billion hungry faces satisfied and driving cars.

The picture we have painted is a mess... it would be too difficult and uncomfortable to resolve it harmoniously, and so another picture must be started. Wipe the slate clean, so-to-speak.

I went to my local Barnes and Nobles book store, headed towards the Science section and to my surprise within 5 minutes I found 6 books predicting an upcoming energy crisis (7 if I count the book I found predicting China's future behavior). I already knew about this for awhile, though. So instead of buying those books, I bought a US Army Survival Manual and I am now practicing methods in the book. I also bought a super lightweight portable hammock, and a Blast Match (a steel/magesium alloy bar that causes very hot sparks to start fires). Just thought I'd share that misc. info. to you.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5337834 - 02/25/06 12:13 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Perhaps I should clarified my first post: Obviously we have established a system of land ownership, but what is the logic behind it? By what right can we claim as our own a piece of the Earth which we had no part in creating? By all logic, we belong to the Earth, not the other way around.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
    #5337905 - 02/25/06 12:43 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Perhaps I should clarified my first post:  Obviously we have established a system of land ownership, but what is the logic behind it?




The logic behind it is such that we have the ability to proclaim that a section of land or any other object determined by our boundaries is ours, and that we have the ability to have that right reserved by others.

The right exists by nothing other than our declaration of it and the fact that we uphold it.

Quote:


By what right can we claim as our own a piece of the Earth which we had no part in creating?  By all logic, we belong to the Earth, not the other way around.




By the right we take. As we create for ourselves a sense of ownership and maintain that sense, we give ourselves the right to hold our sense of ownership. There, quite obviously, is no objective sense of ownership (just as there is no objective sense of anything). :wink:

By all logic, we do not belong to the earth, as a sense of ownership is not logical in an ultimate sense.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5338059 - 02/25/06 01:49 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

So then, are you saying that might makes right?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
    #5338149 - 02/25/06 02:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
So then, are you saying that might makes right?




I'm saying that "right" is an abstract concept that we ourselves create and imply. The fact that we take the right demonstrates that we have a right to do so. Simple?

If you are suggesting that you do not feel that we should have the right to take ownership, then that's another thing entirely.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
    #5338179 - 02/25/06 02:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

If we were a nomadic tribe then there would be no need for property. If the system was not in place, we would be conquering each other through violence instead of money.

I'm sure you wouldn't want me to start a bonfire on your well manicured lawn, would you?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
    #5338446 - 02/25/06 04:23 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Well maybe the question isn't "do we have the right" as much as "could we come up with a better system."

I think it is totally ass backwards the way you can own vast stretches of forest and other people aren't allowed to be on your property. I went backpacking in England, and it was totally chill. A lot of trails went right through farms, and you'd be hiking into someone's backyard and they would be all like "oh cheers! Just close the fence behind you after you're gone." In the US, in most forested areas if you wander onto someones property they greet you with a shotgun.

It stinks because with our system of ownership only one person gets to use land that we could all benefit from. Bring back the regulated commons.


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:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: psyka]
    #5338729 - 02/25/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Maybe nomadism could be a soultion. I mean I came to think about it hundreds of times, there are actually people which have no clue regarding their planet. They don't know and they don't care. I fnd it essential to know as much as you can about it, to get a taste of every place and culture, ideas and people. And maybe after doing that, one being able to realize that there's no need for all that greed.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Invisibleeligal
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
    #5339061 - 02/25/06 08:10 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
People didn't always think this way.





yes they did.


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\m/ Spanksta \m/

"do you have the freedom to do with your nervous system what you want?"

"MolokoMilkPlus said:
I'll respect you if you let me give you a blow job"

"tactik said:
respect the can."



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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: eligal]
    #5339065 - 02/25/06 08:11 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

False.


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Invisibleeligal
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
    #5339732 - 02/25/06 11:07 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

not false.


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\m/ Spanksta \m/

"do you have the freedom to do with your nervous system what you want?"

"MolokoMilkPlus said:
I'll respect you if you let me give you a blow job"

"tactik said:
respect the can."



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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: eligal]
    #5339878 - 02/26/06 12:37 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

You, sir, are extremely ignorant of history.


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Invisiblejustamonkey
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
    #5339885 - 02/26/06 12:43 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

IF you pay for dirt, that's your own choice. If you pay for what you intend to do with that dirt, well, that's another thing entirely.


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[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda


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Invisiblejustamonkey
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: justamonkey]
    #5339890 - 02/26/06 12:45 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

The number two cause of war between primitive cultures, land disputes. The number one cause, religion. The number three cause, Paradigm's method of knowing exactly what he's talking about.


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[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda


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Invisibleeligal
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
    #5340133 - 02/26/06 03:19 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
You, sir, are extremely ignorant of history.




tell us when we did not think like this


--------------------
\m/ Spanksta \m/

"do you have the freedom to do with your nervous system what you want?"

"MolokoMilkPlus said:
I'll respect you if you let me give you a blow job"

"tactik said:
respect the can."



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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5340169 - 02/26/06 04:56 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
It stinks because with our system of ownership only one person gets to use land that we could all benefit from. Bring back the regulated commons.




I get upset that a numerous amount of people could all benefit from using my neighbor's car, but yet only one person, my neighbor, with our system of ownership, is entitled to use it. :mad:

I also get upset that myself and my girlfriend are the only ones who are entitled to occupy the house we rent when all of the criminals that roam the night could benefit from occupying the house as well. It stinks that they aren't allowed to camp out in my back yard, glaring at me through my window. :mad:  :mad2:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: eligal]
    #5340395 - 02/26/06 09:25 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

eligal said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
You, sir, are extremely ignorant of history.




tell us when we did not think like this



Well, for starters, they definitely did not think like this when there were no permanent settlements. And although permanent settlements developed during the agricultural revolution, they did not conceptualize land as a commodity the way we do now. In fact, the concept of land ownership has changed over time quite a bit. It was different in feudal times too. Our modern conception of land ownership has been around only for as long as capitalism has been around(since the Renaissance). This is not to say that other conceptions of it were not as bad. In fact, the capitalist conception of land ownership was somewhat of an improvement over that of the feudal system. But still, both systems were a perversion of how people had traditionally understood the Earth, and our relationship to it.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5340446 - 02/26/06 09:43 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

gluke bastid said:
It stinks because with our system of ownership only one person gets to use land that we could all benefit from. Bring back the regulated commons.




I get upset that a numerous amount of people could all benefit from using my neighbor's car, but yet only one person, my neighbor, with our system of ownership, is entitled to use it. :mad:

I also get upset that myself and my girlfriend are the only ones who are entitled to occupy the house we rent when all of the criminals that roam the night could benefit from occupying the house as well. It stinks that they aren't allowed to camp out in my back yard, glaring at me through my window. :mad:  :mad2:



Your car and your house are both the products of human effort.  They therefore are fair game for being bought and sold.  Land, however, is not created by human effort.  In fact, human effort would not be possible in the first place without land.  To equate the two is the very sin that our society commits.  Cars and houses are subject to the economic law of supply and demand.  That is, as more people demand more cars and houses, the manufacturers and builders comply by building more.  But who's creating more land as demand rises?  No one.  The supply remains the same while demand increases.

And not all land is equal, either, which is why some land costs more than others.  The price differences usually have to do with services rendered by others(i.e. government services, availability of jobs, etc.).  And it's not simply a matter of getting what you pay for, because the land rises in value as more people move to a certain place, meaning that those who get there earlier will see their property value shoot up as others are dispersed onto less valuable land.

Now, I'm not saying we should all get to occupy the same space of land.  That would be an impossibility.  What I am saying is that if we cannot all share the same land, we should at least have an equal share in the benefits of the land(which is capitalized into property values).  Land must be treated as an important resource for us all, rather than a commodity for those who can afford it.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
    #5340529 - 02/26/06 10:22 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:

Your car and your house are both the products of human effort.  They therefore are fair game for being bought and sold.  Land, however, is not created by human effort.




Land, however, is maintained by human effort, in order to have use for us. This has set the course for humans to develop their sense of ownership of the land which they maintain.

Quote:


Cars and houses are subject to the economic law of supply and demand.  That is, as more people demand more cars and houses, the manufacturers and builders comply by building more.  But who's creating more land as demand rises?  No one.  The supply remains the same while demand increases.




Would you agree that the law of supply and demand is applicable to oil, as well? No one is creating more oil as demand rises and the supply diminshes. The fact that land can be considered a non-renewable resource thus makes it not subject to supply and demand?

Quote:


And not all land is equal, either, which is why some land costs more than others.




Which is based on the natural fact that some land potentially has more use for us than others. Land in Antartica is naturally less useful for ourselves to be capable of sustaining an existance on. The fact that we need certain conditions in order to survive implies that different aspects of our environment are of more value to our life than others.


Quote:

And it's not simply a matter of getting what you pay for, because the land rises in value as more people move to a certain place, meaning that those who get there earlier will see their property value shoot up as others are dispersed onto less valuable land.




Natural events produce changes in the amount of value a land offers ourselves as well. I can imagine that many wars were fought by different organizations of humans seeking to migrate to different lands as something affected the quality of living on theirs. :lol:

Quote:


What I am saying is that if we cannot all share the same land, we should at least have an equal share in the benefits of the land(which is capitalized into property values).




A man who tills his land and performs fieldwork in order to raise forth a bountiful crop harvest from his land has the right to his crop equal to as much effort he expended into the manipulation of his land in order to produce that crop. The benefits of the land result from human effort.

Quote:


  Land must be treated as an important resource for us all, rather than a commodity for those who can afford it.




Land is only an important, vital resource to us when we invest human effort into productive usage of that land. Our conceptual system that has resulted from this principle performs the task of providing land to those who invest the human effort into maintaining it.

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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5340560 - 02/26/06 10:34 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Land, however, is maintained by human effort, in order to have use for us. This has set the course for humans to develop their sense of ownership of the land which they maintain.



No, actually it sets the course for a sense of stewardship of the land.

Quote:

Would you agree that the law of supply and demand is applicable to oil, as well? No one is creating more oil as demand rises and the supply diminshes. The fact that land can be considered a non-renewable resource thus makes it not subject to supply and demand?



Oil should also social responsibility, as should any natural resource.

Quote:

Which is based on the natural fact that some land potentially has more use for us than others. Land in Antartica is naturally less useful for ourselves to be capable of sustaining an existance on. The fact that we need certain conditions in order to survive implies that different aspects of our environment are of more value to our life than others.



While that's true to some extent, land prices correspond more to social forces than natural ones.

Quote:

Natural events produce changes in the amount of value a land offers ourselves as well. I can imagine that many wars were fought by different organizations of humans seeking to migrate to different lands as something affected the quality of living on theirs. :lol:



Your point being?

Quote:

A man who tills his land and performs fieldwork in order to raise forth a bountiful crop harvest from his land has the right to his crop equal to as much effort he expended into the manipulation of his land in order to produce that crop. The benefits of the land result from human effort.



Right, but the majority of benefits from land come not from the human effort of the person living on it, but from society.  If a new shopping center opens up near my house, my property value shoots up, making me much wealthier.  But what did I do to reap that benefit?

Quote:

Land is only an important, vital resource to us when we invest human effort into productive usage of that land. Our conceptual system that has resulted from this principle performs the task of providing land to those who invest the human effort into maintaining it.



Maintaining land is not that difficult, and certainly does not account for the vast majority of wealth people derive from it.


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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
    #5340718 - 02/26/06 11:36 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:

No, actually it sets the course for a sense of stewardship of the land.




History demonstrates to the contrary.

Quote:


While that's true to some extent, land prices correspond more to social forces than natural ones.




Social forces derived from natural forces, certainly, resulting from the system we have established in regards to land ownership.

Quote:


Your point being?




Our individual concepts of the right to own land conflicted with others, of course. I believe the ones who won the war maintained their right to own it in regards to others?

Quote:


Right, but the majority of benefits from land come not from the human effort of the person living on it, but from society.  If a new shopping center opens up near my house, my property value shoots up, making me much wealthier.  But what did I do to reap that benefit?




It is the human effort responsible for that person living on that land that has put them in the position to reap the benefits of societal effort (as in, the network of human effort :wink:).

Quote:


Maintaining land is not that difficult, and certainly does not account for the vast majority of wealth people derive from it.




How do you figure that? What does maintaining land mean to you?

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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5341902 - 02/26/06 05:18 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

History demonstrates to the contrary.



Considering the numerous concepts of land that have existed throughout history, I fail to see how the very nature of land would lead inevitably to a particular point of view.

Quote:

It is the human effort responsible for that person living on that land that has put them in the position to reap the benefits of societal effort (as in, the network of human effort)



Precisely. It is not individual human effort, but collective human effort which contributes to land value. Thus, society should collectively reap its rewards.

Quote:

How do you figure that? What does maintaining land mean to you?



I should ask you the same thing.


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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
    #5344815 - 02/27/06 10:35 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Considering the numerous concepts of land that have existed throughout history, I fail to see how the very nature of land would lead inevitably to a particular point of view.





Then why assert something like this?

Quote:


No, actually it sets the course for a sense of stewardship of the land.





Quote:


Precisely.  It is not individual human effort, but collective human effort which contributes to land value.  Thus, society should collectively reap its rewards.




It does. As an individual who is an aspect of a society, society reaps the rewards through him. The reward he receives is distributed elsewhere through the network of society that humans create through the manners in which they interact with each other. An individual uses its resources in ways that benefit others. It is our individual choice to use the resources we have attained.

Quote:


I should ask you the same thing.




Maintanence of the land is utilizing it. Be it farming it, residing upon it, building a supermarket on it, collecting money for others to reside or to build upon it, designate it as a wildlife preserve, etc. etc. etc. Manipulating the land in order to collect resources.

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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5344993 - 02/27/06 11:49 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I would love to see which method would bear the most respect for the land.
I only can imagine, that singular ownership is not good for the land, because there is only one single interest for and from the land, which will easily lead to depletion.
Multiple interests seem a better way to force respect for our planet.
But the western cultural system will revert everything into monetary interests leading to the words of 'who may buy, or who may sell'. Leading to egocentric and selfish doom of humanity, as ownership is simply a construct of our ego.


--------------------
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......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (02/27/06 11:55 AM)


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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5345046 - 02/27/06 12:09 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
I would love to see which method would bear the most respect for the land.
I only can imagine, that singular ownership is not good for the land, because there is only one single interest for and from the land, which will easily lead to depletion.




This single interest relies on society in order to survive and in order for this single interest's ownership to have any value.

Quote:


Multiple interests seem a better way to force respect for our planet.
But the western cultural system will revert everything into monetary interests leading to the words of 'who may buy, or who may sell'. Leading to egocentric and selfish doom of humanity, as ownership is simply a construct of our ego.




Multiple interests, eh? More greedy people? Respect is not a concept that cannot be forced, only realized.

Ownership is simply a construct of our ego? No more than identity itself is - ownership is an extention of identity.

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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5345130 - 02/27/06 12:35 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
I would love to see which method would bear the most respect for the land.
I only can imagine, that singular ownership is not good for the land, because there is only one single interest for and from the land, which will easily lead to depletion.




This single interest relies on society in order to survive and in order for this single interest's ownership to have any value.




Not anymore. A businesmann somewhere does not care about inhuman factors in the property he owns far away, as money is delocalized and he strives only for maximum profit. That includes inhuman factors, as it ever was. Also, the owners, for example, of the properties of the amazonas care shit if the jungle, the plants and the animals will survive, what would be of immense value to society itself. Business cares shit about society. In fact they more and more make the rules for society.
Quote:

Quote:


Multiple interests seem a better way to force respect for our planet.
But the western cultural system will revert everything into monetary interests leading to the words of 'who may buy, or who may sell'. Leading to egocentric and selfish doom of humanity, as ownership is simply a construct of our ego.




Multiple interests, eh? More greedy people? Respect is not a concept that cannot be forced, only realized.

Ownership is simply a construct of our ego? No more than identity itself is - ownership is an extention of identity.


You see. The multiple greed herein would prevent the single use depletion, forcing respect.


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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5345151 - 02/27/06 12:42 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Not anymore. A businesmann somewhere does not care about inhuman factors in the property he owns far away, as money is delocalized and he strives only for maximum profit. That includes inhuman factors, as it ever was. Also, the owners, for example, of the properties of the amazonas care shit if the jungle, the plants and the animals will survive, what would be of immense value to society itself. Business cares shit about society. In fact they more and more make the rules for society.




Business operates by services to individuals. The profit that they command from these areas you describe is exchanged through these services and other means. Those who support improvement in these areas you describe thus have a means by which to provoke such improvement, if they choose to do so.

It all reduces down to an individual's choices. The interaction of these individuals as a result of their choices is society. Improper usage of the concept of ownership does not reveal flaws within the concept.

Quote:


The multiple greed herein would prevent the single use depletion.




As in society. Thank you for playing today's game! :lol:

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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5345190 - 02/27/06 12:51 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Improper usage of the concept of ownership does not reveal flaws within the concept.



Okay, if you come from that, I will give you right. Same with money or arms, but...
is the usage of this property for ones owns single benefit not against the rules, if it would be property to all ?
Or, as paradigm differentiated, is there no difference between man-made property and not-man-influenced natural resource ?
I would say to start there first, for not to mix concepts.


--------------------
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5353326 - 03/01/06 12:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I seem to have trouble explaining this to you guys, so here's Mark Twain's explanation:

Quote:

Archimedes
By Mark Twain

"Give me whereon to stand", said Archimedes, "and I will move the earth." The boast was a pretty safe one, for he knew quite well that the standing place was wanting, and always would be wanting. But suppose he had moved the earth, what then? What benefit would it have been to anybody? The job would never have paid working expenses, let alone dividends, and so what was the use of talking about it? From what astronomers tell us, I should reckon that the earth moved quite fast enough already, and if there happened to be a few cranks who were dissatisfied with its rate of progress, as far as I am concerned, they might push it along for themselves; I would not move a finger or subscribe a penny piece to assist in anything of the kind.

Why such a fellow as Archimedes should be looked upon as a genius I never could understand; I never heard that he made a pile, or did anything else worth talking about. As for that last contract he took in hand, it was the worst bungle I ever knew; he undertook to keep the Romans out of Syracuse; he tried first one dodge and then another, but they got in after all, and when it came to fair fighting he was out of it altogether, a common soldier in a very business-like sort of way settling all his pretensions.

It is evident that he was an over-rated man. He was in the habit of making a lot of fuss about his screws and levers, but his knowledge of mechanics was in reality of a very limited character. I have never set up for a genius myself, but I know of a mechanical force more powerful than anything the vaunting engineer of Syracuse ever dreamed of. It is the force of land monopoly; it is a screw and lever all in one; it will screw the last penny out of a man's pocket, and bend everything on earth to its own despotic will. Give me the private ownership of all the land, and will I move the earth? No; but I will do more. I will undertake to make slaves of all the human beings on the face of it. Not chattel slaves exactly, but slaves nevertheless. What an idiot I would be to make chattel slaves of them. I would have to find them salts and senna when they were sick, and whip them to work when they were lazy.

No, it is not good enough. Under the system I propose the fools would imagine they were all free. I would get a maximum of results, and have no responsibility whatever. They would cultivate the soil; they would dive into the bowels of the earth for its hidden treasures; they would build cities and construct railways and telegraphs; their ships would navigate the ocean; they would work and work, and invent and contrive; their warehouses would be full, their markets glutted, and

the beauty of the whole concern would be
that everything they made would belong to me.


It would be this way, you see: As I owned all the land, they would of course, have to pay me rent. They could not reasonably expect me to allow them the use of the land for nothing. I am not a hard man, and in fixing the rent I would be very liberal with them. I would allow them, in fact, to fix it themselves. What could be fairer? Here is a piece of land, let us say, it might be a farm, it might be a building site, or it might be something else - if there was only one man who wanted it, of course he would not offer me much, but if the land be really worth anything such a circumstance is not likely to happen. On the contrary, there would be a number who would want it, and they would go on bidding and bidding one against the other, in order to get it. I should accept the highest offer - what could be fairer? Every increase of population, extension of trade, every advance in the arts and sciences would, as we all know, increase the value of land, and the competition that would naturally arise would continue to force rents upward, so much so, that in many cases the tenants would have little or nothing left for themselves.

In this case a number of those who were hard pushed would seek to borrow, and as for those who were not so hard pushed, they would, as a matter of course, get the idea into their heads that if they only had more capital they could extend their operations, and thereby make their business more profitable. Here I am again. The very man they stand in need of; a regular benefactor of my species, and always ready to oblige them. With such an enormous rent-roll I could furnish them with funds up to the full extent of the available security; they would not expect me to do more, and in the matter of interest I would be equally generous.

I would allow them to fix the rate of it themselves in precisely the same manner as they had fixed the rent. I should then have them by the wool, and if they failed in their payments it would be the easiest thing in the world to sell them out. They might bewail their lot, but business is business. They should have worked harder and been more provident. Whatever inconvenience they might suffer, it would be their concern, and not mine. What a glorious time I would have of it! Rent and interest, interest and rent, and no limit to either, excepting the ability of the workers to pay. Rents would go up and up, and they would continue to pledge and mortgage, and as they went bung, bung, one after another, it would be the finest sport ever seen. thus, from the simple leverage of land monopoly, not only the great globe itself, but everything on the face of it would eventually belong to me. I would be king and lord of all, and the rest of mankind would be my most willing slaves.

It hardly needs to be said that it would not be consistent with my dignity to associate with the common rank and file of humanity; it would not be politic to say so, but, as a matter of fact, I not only hate work but I hate those who do work, and I would not have their stinking carcasses near me at any price. High above the contemptible herd I would sit enthroned amid a circle of devoted worshippers. I would choose for myself companions after my own heart. I would deck them with ribbons and gewgaws to tickle their vanity; they would esteem it an honour to kiss my glove, and would pay homage to the very chair that I sat upon; brave men would die for me, parsons would pray for me, and bright-eyed beauty would pander to my pleasures. For the proper management of public affairs I would have a parliament, and for the preservation of law and order there would be soldiers and policemen, all sworn to serve me faithfully; their pay would not be much, but their high sense of duty would be a sufficient guarantee that they would fulfil the terms of the contract.

Outside the charmed circle of my society would be others eagerly pressing forward in the hope of sharing my favours; outside of these would be others again who would be forever seeking to wriggle themselves into the ranks of those in front of them, and so on, outward and downward, until we reach the deep ranks of the workers forever toiling and forever struggling merely to live, and with the hell of poverty forever threatening to engulf them. The hell of poverty, that outer realm of darkness where there is weeping and wading and gnashing of teeth - the social Gehenna, where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched - here is a whip more effective by far than the keenest lash of the chattel slave owner, urging them on by day, haunting their dreams by night, draining without stint the life blood from their veins, and pursuing them with relentless constancy to their graves. In the buoyancy of youth many would start full of hope and with high expectations; but, as they journeyed along, disappointment would follow disappointment, hope would gradually give place to despair, the promised cup of joy would be turned to bitterness, and the holiest affection would become a poisoned arrow quivering in the heart!

What a beautiful arrangement - ambition urging in front, want and the fear of want bringing up the rear! In the conflicting interests that would be involved, in the throat-cutting competition that would prevail, in the bitterness that would be engendered between man and man, husband and wife, father and son, I should, of course, have no part. There would be lying and cheating, harsh treatment by masters, dishonesty of servants, strikes and lockouts, assaults and intimidation, family feuds and interminable broils; but they would not concern Me. In the serene atmosphere of my earthly paradise I would be safe from all evil. I would feast on the daintiest of dishes, and sip wines of the choicest vintage; my gardens would have the most magnificent terraces and the finest walks. I would roam mid the umbrageous foliage of the trees, the blooming flowers, the warbling of birds, the jetting of fountains, and the splashing of pellucid waters. My palace would have its walls of alabaster and domes of crystal, there would be furniture of the most exquisite workmanship, carpets and hangings of the richest fabrics and finest textures, carvings and paintings that were miracles of art, vessels of gold and silver, gems of the purest ray glittering in their settings, the voluptuous strains of the sweetest music, the perfume of roses, the softest of couches, a horde of titled lackeys to come and go at my bidding, and a perfect galaxy of beauty to stimulate desire, and administer to my enjoyment. Thus would I pass the happy hours away, while throughout the world it would be a hallmark of respectability to extol my virtues, and anthems would be everywhere sung in praise.

Archimedes never dreamt of anything like that. Yet, with the earth for my fulcrum and its private ownership for my lever, it is all possible. If it should be said that the people would eventually detect the fraud, and with swift vengeance hurl me and all my courtly parasites to perdition, I answer, "Nothing of the kind, the people are as good as gold, and would stand it like bricks, and I appeal to the facts of today to bear me witness."




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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
    #5353608 - 03/01/06 01:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

When did people get the idea that this planet we all live on is something that can be conquered and partitioned among the elite?

A very long time ago. I would say that the fallacy originated in most of Europe and some of Asia, and spread about as fast as the conquerors spread.

Why is it that someone can hold a piece of land for randsom when they had no part in creating it? People didn't always think this way. People used to have a concept of stewardship over the Earth, rather than ownership. Earth, our celestial mother, should not be conquered and sold to the highest bidder. It is our common inheritance, and we should treat it as such.

I agree, and I think you need to take a step back, and examine, as I mentioned in my other post, the fallacy that one can own oneself. It does not strike me as logical that one is able to 'own' oneself, as ownership involves a subject who does the owning and an object that is owned. However, a person is simultaneously the subject and the object. There is no little person named 'ego' who sits up in your head and controls you and owns you. The ego is a part of you, just as an apple is a part of an apple tree; but the apple tree does not 'own' the apple, it is merely its nature to produce them.

Unlike the tree however, man's nature involves free will. We can choose whether to delude ourselves into thinking that we somehow 'own' ourselves, and consequently can 'own' something else, or we can choose to have but not possess.

Quote:

When he tries to extend his power over objects, those objects gain control of him. He who is controlled by objects loses his inner self.
-Chuang Tzu




Man's final end is unitive knowledge of Godhead/Tao. The Way to achieving this is by not coveting, not desiring, and not being attached to what you have.

Our society is in such a way that it will probably be hundreds or thousands of generations before this is recognized.

You can argue that society wouldn't be able to function without the concept of possessions and attachment to them, which would lead to social segregation; but consider if you will, such a society without possessions. People would still make pots, chop wood, carry water, harvest, and farm. People would still eat, drink, and sleep. There wouldn't really be much crime, because without possessions there would be no impetus to steal, and even if there were a few antisocial members who found it enjoyable to steal, the 'victims' would be provided for still. There wouldn't be greed or any need to have the biggest or best, so there would be much more distribution of resources. However, in order for this to work, there would have to be a just leader, perhaps a Platonic philosopher king or something to that extent, otherwise the state would probably become corrupted from power, as have been all attempts at creating Communism. There would also need to be different compensation levels for varying amounts of work performed. This would be a prime motivator for work. In fact, a caste system would probably work out very well, SO LONG AS the highest goal aspired to was a spiritual one, not one based on money and power as it is organized today. These latter aspects may only be needed during a transitional period, as if such a state were truly implemented, and man's highest goal was recognized as a spiritual one, then there would be no need to possess. Man would naturally share and make sure everyone was provided for.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: dblaney]
    #5356707 - 03/02/06 08:54 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
When did people get the idea that this planet we all live on is something that can be conquered and partitioned among the elite?

A very long time ago. I would say that the fallacy originated in most of Europe and some of Asia, and spread about as fast as the conquerors spread.




"This fallacy"? It is a false notion that humans can conquer land from others and partition a sense of ownership of that land amongst themselves?

Reality demonstrates that the notion is accurate, as it is exactly what has happened.

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If I should die this very moment
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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5356833 - 03/02/06 09:40 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I call it a fallacy because although man thinks he has done it, ownership is a fairly nonsensical concept. I could claim that I own every star in the Alpha Centauri system, and even start fights with anyone who says otherwise, but none of that somehow would give me ownership of it.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: dblaney]
    #5356888 - 03/02/06 10:02 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
I call it a fallacy because although man thinks he has done it, ownership is a fairly nonsensical concept.




It seems to be a rather practical concept, regardless of the fact that it exists as an abstraction that we ourselves have proclaimed.

Quote:


I could claim that I own every star in the Alpha Centauri system, and even start fights with anyone who says otherwise, but none of that somehow would give me ownership of it.




Why, of course.

Yet the fact remains that we have established a system that entitles individuals and interests to hold ownership of land and upholds that ownership with laws. That is what gives one ownership of land. Is it an abstract sense only respected by ourselves as a result of our system that governs it? Certainly. Is there some objective, ultimate perspective from which it is bound that the land in question is undoubtedly yours? Of course not.

The owning of land is nonsense insomuch as meaning itself is.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
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Loving every breath of you

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:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5357179 - 03/02/06 11:55 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
The owning of land is nonsense insomuch as meaning itself is.



Ok, I'll concede that it is just as much an abstraction by man as any other meaning, but after reading the Mark Twain essay I posted, do you see the injustice of it?


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5357317 - 03/02/06 12:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Yet the fact remains that we have established a system that entitles individuals and interests to hold ownership of land and upholds that ownership with laws.

And for the most part I would say that the system is unethical. Strictly theoretically, it could work. However, that doesn't take into account the propensity for corruption and vice that seems to be innate in any philosophical system that doesn't have spirituality as its highest goal. Especially our society, in which the dominant philosophy is written by marketers whose goal is to create feelings of greed, emptiness, and suffering which can only be remedied by purchasing whatever product they are selling. In such a society as we have set up, greed for land is a foundational desire upon which practically all others depend. You can't have a nice house, nice car, nice spouse, nice furniture, nice art, nice this and that until you first have land to put it all on.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: dblaney]
    #5357648 - 03/02/06 02:04 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

How do you force people not to be greedy and corrupt?


--------------------
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my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: psyka]
    #5358293 - 03/02/06 04:47 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

There are positive and negatives to all inventions of man. Take time for instance. While it DOES provide a way for our society to function in a somewhat cohesive manner, it also prevents many people from living in the eternal present. However, I do agree that this ownership of the land needs to be done in a better way. Are we really that much better with our condos and beach houses that we are willing to saacrifice the beauty of mother/father Earth?


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: psyka]
    #5358788 - 03/02/06 06:35 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

How do you force people to be moral? Well you can take the approach of using force, though time has proven that method to have unspeakable fruits of death and destruction and competition, and it's arguably created more immorality than morality. The alternative would be the approach of letting man unfold by himself. However, so long as the spiritual element of life is denied, man will roam through the appetitive level of life, creating suffering and disharmony. This is why spirituality is essentially essential.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5360686 - 03/03/06 05:23 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Certainly. Is there some objective, ultimate perspective from which it is bound that the land in question is undoubtedly yours? Of course not.
Of course there is ! If someone is starving in a land, because someone else uses it for their own profit (only one example).

The owning of land is nonsense insomuch as meaning itself is.
Meaning even exists without any conscious or intelligent observer.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5360926 - 03/03/06 08:37 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Of course there is ! If someone is starving in a land, because someone else uses it for their own profit (only one example).




I'm trying to work through the ambiguity in this statement. Are you asserting that, if someone is in Wal*Mart and they are absolutely starving, then they are permitted to consume food straight off of the shelves, because some ultimate, objective perspective entitles them as owning the land upon which Wal*Mart stands? :confused: :wtf:

The point is that there is no perspective existing beyond our own by which a sense of ownership is held. There is merely that of our own, collective, human system. God does not bestow property upon us.

Quote:


Meaning even exists without any conscious or intelligent observer.




Bzzzzzt. Incorrect. Meaning is a phenomenon that results from a conscious observer who perceives reality and is capable of creating representations of reality. Regardless of what the meaning is or what aspect of reality it reflects, meaning is entirely within the boundaries of a subsystem, such as ourselves, that creates it.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: dblaney]
    #5360943 - 03/03/06 08:50 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
And for the most part I would say that the system is unethical.




Ethics, as in, a set of human-defined principles that judge our actions and determine if they are "right", which is an identity that we also designate, correct? :wink:

Thus, one must elaborate exactly what it is that makes it unethical. Feel free! :thumbup:

Quote:


However, that doesn't take into account the propensity for corruption and vice that seems to be innate in any philosophical system that doesn't have spirituality as its highest goal.




Share with us any human-based thought system that has no possibility of allowing corruption, misapplication, or misinterpretation of it to occur?

Quote:


Especially our society, in which the dominant philosophy is written by marketers whose goal is to create feelings of greed, emptiness, and suffering which can only be remedied by purchasing whatever product they are selling.




A good business practice is observing the nature of your market and targeting one's goods and products towards them in order to maximize sales.  It is interesting that the apparent tendency nowadays is such that individuals also seek something from owning a product beyond the product itself, such as a sense of identity. It tends to be more effective to create supplies for demands, as opposed to creating demand for supplies. :grin:

Quote:


In such a society as we have set up, greed for land is a foundational desire upon which practically all others depend. You can't have a nice house, nice car, nice spouse, nice furniture, nice art, nice this and that until you first have land to put it all on.




Jada jada jada, the nature of physical existance and the fact that we have spatial dimensions implies that we need to have space within which to exist. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5361311 - 03/03/06 11:56 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

As long as I regard the planet a property of all humans and the person is not starving just for fun or ripping off oither people, yes, I would like to see the person who stops a starving human eating from the shelves of any supermarket. I think you hint at welfare and that is why it exists (to stop starving people looting supermarkets).
Ownership was always a case of 'the strongest'. Be it with pure strength, amount of people, weapons or money. The 'natural' birth-right is not considered right. Perhaps this is why biogenetic companies try so hard to clone and breed humans, to make them their property and for them to loose any birth right. Same with genetic 'engineered' food.

meaning, for example (here we go again): you propose a bird living in a tree does not have any inherent meaning to the bird or the tree ? Bzzzzt, wrong !


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5361363 - 03/03/06 12:17 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
As long as I regard the planet a property of all humans and the person is not starving just for fun or ripping off oither people, yes, I would like to see the person who stops a starving human eating from the shelves of any supermarket.




And exactly what aspect of your point of view designates your point of view as being an objective viewpoint, inherent within reality itself? :shocked:

Quote:


I think you hint at welfare and that is why it exists (to stop starving people looting supermarkets).




Nei, you are the one who hinted at it. You implied that the fact that the man is starving equates into his ownership of the land upon which the store is established. :confused:

Quote:


Ownership was always a case of 'the strongest'. Be it with pure strength, amount of people, weapons or money.




Or by systems of thought used to govern a society and the land that they inhabit.

The assertion that a distinct resource is property of oneself is the advanced form of fending off other predators from one's recent kill with the weapons that nature has granted you and one's aggressive display. It is the extension of one's illusory sense of self, resultant from the mind's definition of who one is.

Your point being? Is that inherently a negative, wrong thing?

Quote:


The 'natural' birth-right is not considered right.




The "'natural'" birth-right? What aspect of the behavior that nature exhibits guarantees any form of right to something simply because of the fact that one has been born? Nature directly, violently conflicts your brazen assertion that there exists a birth-right as guaranteed by some natural law every time a grand lioness snaps the neck of a three month old wildebeest and feasts off of its body, which used to conduct a phenomenon known as life. :mushroom2:

Nature is what it is. Its actually a very simple, peacefully silent, spiritually contemplative realization. :thumbup:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
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Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
    #5361460 - 03/03/06 12:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Ok, I'll concede that it is just as much an abstraction by man as any other meaning, but after reading the Mark Twain essay I posted, do you see the injustice of it?




I agree completely with the ideas he presented, as I understood them. :wink:

However, I acknowledge that the phenomenon he describes, the enslavement of want, is not unjust, but simply nature. Not to state that it is the only possibillity, or that it is the better one, but simply to state that it is nature and has resulted from our nature.

It is emphasized because it is necessary to survive. If one continues to survive, one then has the possibillity that it is entirely plausible and, in fact, more effective to maintain one's survival without being enslaved to want. :grin:

I interpreted that Twain was stating that, in a sense, it is those who strive to survive, out of an urgent want, to perform actions that make our society operate, that transform the surface of our Earth, that are enslaved to him in that they provide for him and his experience a dynamic, complex world for him to exist within without him having a need to expend effort to develop that world himself (although he certainly has, this quotation demonstrates such :wink:).

There are many levels through which to contemplate his text. :grin:

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Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5361478 - 03/03/06 12:56 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I don't want to elaborate on the view that the planet belongs to all people, because it is obvious to me. People are here to share the resources for all and for the better and of course for their own better, too.
In german language, we have three more words, with the same meaning as predator: bandit, looter and robber.
It is obvious to me when one overreachingly and consciously bears this mentality.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5361538 - 03/03/06 01:17 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Ethics, as in, a set of human-defined principles that judge our actions and determine if they are "right", which is an identity that we also designate, correct? :wink:

Thus, one must elaborate exactly what it is that makes it unethical. Feel free! :thumbup:





Indeed. Perhaps "unethical" was not the best choice of diction. Such a system, in and of itself, is adequate and helpful in reducing potential violence among most people living in the appetitive level. However, it is not adequate nor is it equipped for dealing with their inevitable greed, beyond a very trivial level, when an economic system such as ours is imposed. This greed is the one and the same greed that has lead to classism throughout a lot of the world, most prominently in Western countries. And so long as man neglects his spiritual aspect, then he will allow greed to manifest in just about any economic system. So it is not so much unethical as it is poorly equipped for dealing with greed.

Quote:


Share with us any human-based thought system that has no possibility of allowing corruption, misapplication, or misinterpretation of it to occur?




Corruption and vice are not innate in the perennial philosophy. It's a system which allows for corruption and vice to exist, but in those who truly follow it, there is little corruption and vice to be found.

Quote:


A good business practice is observing the nature of your market and targeting one's goods and products towards them in order to maximize sales.  It is interesting that the apparent tendency nowadays is such that individuals also seek something from owning a product beyond the product itself, such as a sense of identity. It tends to be more effective to create supplies for demands, as opposed to creating demand for supplies. :grin:




Okay, I agree with you that the potential for these demands and desires is present in most, if not all. However, I disagree that they would be expressed in as strong and widespread of a manner as they presently are if it weren't for marketers. We are in a society where brand name clothes, cars, medicines, etc. etc. are highly valued by most. They are highly valued because marketers convince people that they need such items (by giving them the impression that they would be much better off if they had whatever they happen to be selling). Demand isn't too difficult to create, and it is very profitable.

Quote:


Jada jada jada, the nature of physical existance and the fact that we have spatial dimensions implies that we need to have space within which to exist. :lol:




I'm glad you understand :smile:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5361604 - 03/03/06 01:37 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
I don't want to elaborate on the view that the planet belongs to all people, because it is obvious to me.




That is to say, that you have no reasoning upon which your belief that the planet belongs to all people, therefore you can't elaborate.

Whether or not your belief is obvious to you, you asserted that everyone has a 'natural' birth right, presumably to live or to have a right to have land. I have asked what exact aspect of nature bestows upon us this right. I have went further to demonstrate that nature has no concern with whether or not some aspect of it lives or dies, has land or starves from lack of resources.

If you wish to express one's opinion on such without demonstrating that your opinion actually reflects reality, then do not expect anyone to think your opinion has any merit in its ability to reflect reality.

Quote:


People are here to share the resources for all and for the better and of course for their own better, too.




Wait, a much shorter statement is simply "People are here.". Stopping after the word "here" allows one to not assume that we have a purpose to our existance beyond the purpose that we actively create for ourselves. Who are you to tell us why we are here?

Quote:


In german language, we have three more words, with the same meaning as predator: bandit, looter and robber.
It is obvious to me when one overreachingly and consciously bears this mentality.




And yet any aspect of reality that exhibits the traits of life is a predator, consuming resources of energy, the act of the transfer of this energy almost completely in the form of predation.

Deer, as herbivores, prey upon the grass in the meadow and the bushes in the forest. I don't accuse my pet rabbit with negative connotations everytime it feasts upon the timothy hay I provide for it.

Regardless of your language's multiple definitions for one single word, the fact remains that life and predation go hand-in-hand, and the fact that something is a predator does not define something as wrong or negative.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: dblaney]
    #5361640 - 03/03/06 01:51 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
However, it is not adequate nor is it equipped for dealing with their inevitable greed, beyond a very trivial level, when an economic system such as ours is imposed. This greed is the one and the same greed that has lead to classism throughout a lot of the world, most prominently in Western countries. And so long as man neglects his spiritual aspect, then he will allow greed to manifest in just about any economic system. So it is not so much unethical as it is poorly equipped for dealing with greed.




I thought, first and foremost, that we were discussing the concept of ownership, and not our current economic system that springs forth as a result of the concept of ownership? Well, I guess I did just state that they are intricately linked. :laugh:

An economic system or concept of ownership shouldn't be equipped with dealing with the possibillity that those humans who participate within the system might exhibit certain traits, such as greed. Those who own and participate as an economic system should equip themselves to effectively conduct themselves in different matters. Regulating said economic system to prevent individuals from allowing greed to influence their decisions is an action that, by its nature, exists as the taking away of one's ability to exercise choice. When it comes to our property, I think we should have a wide open realm of choice in regards to that property.

Naturally, this is personal preference - some like to be able to own their own truck as their own, while others prefer to have their truck be owned by the state. Its relative anyways, most systems will limit your ownership (for example, the requirement to register one's truck with one's government, in order for the truck's value to be taxed :mad:).



Quote:


Corruption and vice are not innate in the perennial philosophy. It's a system which allows for corruption and vice to exist, but in those who truly follow it, there is little corruption and vice to be found.




The perrenial philosophy? And what is that? If anything springs forth perennially, it seems to be greed and corruption. :lol:

Quote:


We are in a society where brand name clothes, cars, medicines, etc. etc. are highly valued by most. They are highly valued because marketers convince people that they need such items (by giving them the impression that they would be much better off if they had whatever they happen to be selling). Demand isn't too difficult to create, and it is very profitable.




Demand isn't too difficult to create if one's market consists of undeveloped humans who are unable to discern for themselves value, relative to their situation.  You can't "give" someone an impression, they can only form an impression. They are the ones with the minds, suspossedly. :smirk:

Quote:


I'm glad you understand :smile:




Do you understand that the fact that you have quoted does not imply that one has a right to continue accessing and existing within that space? :smile:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisibleeligal
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
    #5361866 - 03/03/06 02:55 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

sorry it has taken me so long to reply, been gone for a while...


Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

eligal said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
You, sir, are extremely ignorant of history.




tell us when we did not think like this



Well, for starters, they definitely did not think like this when there were no permanent settlements. And although permanent settlements developed during the agricultural revolution, they did not conceptualize land as a commodity the way we do now. In fact, the concept of land ownership has changed over time quite a bit. It was different in feudal times too. Our modern conception of land ownership has been around only for as long as capitalism has been around(since the Renaissance). This is not to say that other conceptions of it were not as bad. In fact, the capitalist conception of land ownership was somewhat of an improvement over that of the feudal system. But still, both systems were a perversion of how people had traditionally understood the Earth, and our relationship to it.




my comment has to do with people claiming to own land. we have done this way before capitalism. when we were cavemen we preserved land areas to ourselves and if other tribes/groups (or even earlier "bands") came into ourterritory we would make them leave or fight them off. this is because there is only so much food in one area, and for us and our families to survive, we had to make sure that that food was kept for our consumption, and not consumed by others. thus, we claimed our territory. thus, we claimed the land as ours. we controlled that land.
and we are not the only anumals who do this, obviously, but we do it to a greater extent. but its just the way humans are, its natural, we as animals cannot do anything unnatural.


--------------------
\m/ Spanksta \m/

"do you have the freedom to do with your nervous system what you want?"

"MolokoMilkPlus said:
I'll respect you if you let me give you a blow job"

"tactik said:
respect the can."



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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5361886 - 03/03/06 03:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Those who own and participate as an economic system should equip themselves to effectively conduct themselves in different matters.

I agree, they should, but the overwhelming majority don't. I think it would be nice to have a system that helps to control vices, but as you say, such a system would be taking away much free-will and choice. And to me that's too great a sacrifice, so I think I'll agree with you, that it is the individual's responsibility to equip themselves. Perhaps the state could do a slightly better job of showing them the need for such self-discipline, but even that would be bordering on propaganda. Continuing by the same line of reasoning, a state ought not infringe upon a person's will, unless it directly interferes with another's will. A person ought to take upon themselves the role of adopting a functional philosophy/moral system so that they can peacefully interact and resolve conflicts of interest without necessitating a third party state. That probably won't be happening anytime soon though :frown:

The perrenial philosophy? And what is that? If anything springs forth perennially, it seems to be greed and corruption.

:lol: As articulated by Huxley, it is the philosophy which lies at the core of all major world philosophies/religions (from Buddhism to Christianity). If you haven't read the book yet, I would highly recommend you do, if for nothing more than mere scholarly value.

Demand isn't too difficult to create if one's market consists of undeveloped humans who are unable to discern for themselves value, relative to their situation.

Oh, you'd be surprised. From my own observations, it's not that people aren't able to discern value for themselves, it's that they simply don't bother to do so. I agree with Plato that most people live in the appetative, and it's really these people that most marketers target. And their strategies are reinforced all the time, all over the place. For instance, advertisements and messages hinting at products can be found everywhere from the newspaper, the radio, the TV, all forms of public transportation, sometimes even private transportation, all over the internet, magazines, stores, schools, even clothing etc. Everywhere there are signs and subtle suggestions to consume. Why should one consume? "Because you need ______!" You'd be surprised how little the average person questions what messages they are presented with, and in such a person, reinforcement from every angle proves very successful in creating demand.

Do you understand that the fact that you have quoted does not imply that one has a right to continue accessing and existing within that space?

Absolutely, there are no 'rights' inherently bestowed upon a being upon coming out of the earth.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: eligal]
    #5361915 - 03/03/06 03:09 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

eligal said:
my comment has to do with people claiming to own land. we have done this way before capitalism. when we were cavemen we preserved land areas to ourselves and if other tribes/groups (or even earlier "bands") came into ourterritory we would make them leave or fight them off. this is because there is only so much food in one area, and for us and our families to survive, we had to make sure that that food was kept for our consumption, and not consumed by others. thus, we claimed our territory. thus, we claimed the land as ours. we controlled that land.
and we are not the only anumals who do this, obviously, but we do it to a greater extent. but its just the way humans are, its natural, we as animals cannot do anything unnatural.



You misunderstand the concept of ownership. If you're in a public bathroom, it's perfectly reasonable to expect other people not to use the same stall as you while you're in it, but does that mean you own the stall? No. It means you're using it, and are entitled to your own personal space. But if you tried to sell that stall to someone, or make them pay you for using it, they'd look at you like had three heads. This is how land was once thought of. There is a difference between territoriality and commodification.

BTW: When different groups of prehistoric humans came together, it is true that sometimes they fought, but at least as frequently, they would come together, and mate with one another. It is generally acknowledged that while they sometimes made war, more often they made love.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Silversoul]
    #5361999 - 03/03/06 03:31 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

to fireworks,
Want does not mean can. With 'obvious' I say, that anyone should ask himself what is wrong with him or wrong with me, if he does not see it like that. Obvious for me must not mean it to you, but can give you a hint.

Staying here does imply that you don't rob off anything of anyone.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (03/03/06 03:37 PM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5363658 - 03/04/06 02:10 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Want does not mean can. With 'obvious' I say, that anyone should ask himself what is wrong with him or wrong with me, if he does not see it like that. Obvious for me must not mean it to you, but can give you a hint.




If some thought or concept is "obvious" to you, than surely you can explain  by what reasoning it is clearly obvious. Otherwise, your simple assertion that it is obvious, and nothing more, has no basis and no power to share any idea.

The only hint of reasoning you shared was in regards to a natural birth-right, and that it is obvious that we have it. Which is why so many people die, right? Nature doesn't support any notion of any birth-right, a quick glance as to what nature is clearly makes such obvious. :lol:

Quote:


Staying here does imply that you don't rob off anything of anyone.




Oh does it? You've already made it clear that "rob" and "predation" mean the same thing. Existing on earth implies that one doesn't prey upon anything else, eh? Bzzzzzt. Incorrect.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5363725 - 03/04/06 03:43 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Man, you really don't know ? You can't imagine ? :lol: you really want to know ? What follows is perhaps not in proper english, but I think, what I want to say is obvious anyway.
So, as you said for yourself, the only rules which claim possession unto something, is meant by abstract laws. These laws were constructed in regard of might, what could be seen as 'natural law' if we would not have our intelligence. Every might creates an opposed counter might, if someone thinks the law is unjust. Unjust are all laws that don't take regards to birth-right. I am more loose with the property-concept regarding constructed things, but I see natural resources, like land, not created by man. It was there, before any man was here and then it started that the first one to get there, claimed property. Another one saw that and got a friend to use the same claim and get the intruder away. Now the land was owned by two people. This gets on and on until someone developed weapons, which which he would not use so many people to defend his virtual right. Needless to say that the others got better weapons, so it went forward and backward until the means get speeded up again by the invention of money. The logic herein is, that I will get more power, then the land is mine. Some blind their opponents by saying the land will belong to the benefit of the people, but those people also only see their group, not the others, and regularly, inside these groups there raised poorness and injustice again, as the people were fooled by their leaders. This all leads to the situation of today, where war for land and resources is standing in front of the door, every day. Only by some artificial, manmade laws !
I see the earth as supplier for the needs of every human, as noone has invented earth and no one invented the humans, so the earth does not belong to anybody as well as the humans do not. Industry and politics want to break that natural law, to make the humans dependent upon them. It is time to counteract, by claiming the resources of the earth for every human, to stop rising slavery of the poor nations.
Perhaps 'invention' and 'creation' are the keyword here. As noone invented or created the natural earth of the human, no one has the exclusive rights of property or unlimited usage of them. Simple as that. But I see you not discerning natural resources and man made stuff, so this concept will be surely alien to you.

Staying here does imply that you don't rob off anything of anyone.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh does it? You've already made it clear that "rob" and "predation" mean the same thing. Existing on earth implies that one doesn't prey upon anything else, eh? Bzzzzzt. Incorrect.
BZZT, yawn, wrong.
That counts for human until you don't want to end in prison or get shot. But you seem to copy the animistic concept of predatory upon humans. Again, if humans consciously use this primitive concept, they have nothing lost in a human social society.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5363738 - 03/04/06 03:56 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Unjust are all laws that don't take regards to birth-right.




Yes, you've already asserted this, but you continue to fail to demonstrate what this birth-right is and exactly what makes this birth-right "right".

Quote:


I see the earth as supplier for the needs of every human




The earth is not our supplier. We supply ourselves from the resources of the earth. It is not as though the Earth "grants" us these supplies, we ourselves assert that they are for us to utilize and we establish our own right to do so.

Quote:


Industry and politics want to break that natural law




What natural law? I'm still waiting for that one to be explained. Perhaps it should be obvious? :smirk:

Quote:


Perhaps 'invention' and 'creation' are the keyword here. As noone invented or created the natural earth of the human, no one has the exclusive rights of propperty or unlimited usage of them.




Thus, it necessarily follows that no one has any right of any property or any usage of that property. Any invention or creation is a manipulation of natural resources. When someone constructs a guitar, it doesn't magically appear out of the air. It results from the technological application that utilizes resources that we did not create in order to create something "new".

Quote:


Simple as that. But I see you not discerning natural resources and man made stuff, so this concept will be surely alien to you.




:lol: There is no distinction to be discerned that is relevant to this discussion as any fabrication that man has created is simply natural resources being manipulated by us. You state that if we take natural resources, which we have no rights to own as our property, and perform work to make it useful to us, we suddenly have rights to own it? Wow, it sounds as though you are stating that we have rights to own land. :lol:

Quote:


That counts for human until you don't want to end in prison or get shot. But you seem to copy the animalistic concept of predatory upon humans. Again, if humans consciously use this primitive concept, they have nothing lost in a human social society.




Primitve concept? Oh, you must refer to the natural fact that, when we consume resources in order to continue our survival, we are preying upon the previous form that contained those resources (energy). The nature of the fact that resources are limited implies that, if we consume this specific resources ourselves, it is no longer there, in that form, for anyone else to consume.

I don't recall ever being threatened with prison time or with a gun shot to the head the last time I ate a salad. I wasn't aware that Germany was becoming that fascist again. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5363762 - 03/04/06 04:30 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

The earth is not our supplier. We supply ourselves from the resources of the earth. It is not as though the Earth "grants" us these supplies, we ourselves assert that they are for us to utilize and we establish our own right to do so.
You will have to reconsider.

You simply dont want to understand and try to turn my words atround. That makes discussion senseless for me.

And your unpropper and uncorrect absolutism bores me a lot. Of course some natural resources are not limited, as they can regrow. Ever heard of that ?
Man :frown:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5363768 - 03/04/06 05:03 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
You simply dont want to understand and try to turn my words atround. That makes discussion senseless for me.




At this point in time, when one does not, for whatever reason, properly discuss the ideas that are being presented for discussion, when one does not seem to wish to engage in the discussion that is resulting from such presentation, one starts to question the other's personal qualities and traits, their actions and behaviors.

Why are we attempting to discussing fireworks_god as a person, which does not exist as a person, more of an archetype, instead of the ideas springing forth from the discussion of the thoughts that one has presented?

Regardless of what I do or do not do as a person, which is a realm entirely seperate from the idea exchange that is occuring, I have asked questions and made points of my own, which are within the spirit of the nature of this forum, and they have failed to be addressed in a pertinent matter.

Quote:


And your unpropper and uncorrect absolutism bores me a lot.




I really do not care what your inner, mental state of being in regards to your attitude towards experience is. It has nothing to do with this thread. The intent is to engage in a discussion and exchange of ideas as they are presented, not brush them aside and instead proclaim your emotional reactions to such ideas. :thumbdown:

Quote:


Of course some natural resources are not limited, as they can regrow. Ever heard of that ?
Man :frown:




Certainly. The concept of renewable resources is basic enough to grasp a sense of it. At any given moment, of course, there is a finite amount of said resources, which places their availability in this moment as being of a limited amount, hence, the reference to these resources as being limited. :wink:

There isn't an infinite amount of wind, water isn't truly renewable, but transferrable, and even though the Sun emits a captivating amount of energy, it isn't an infinite amount.

None of this changes the fact that one's consumption or utilization of a resource naturally prevents another from consuming or utilizing that resource at the same moment, either. When one's giraffe consumes the leaves of a tree, it is preying upon it. The giraffe is a bandit, a thief, correct? :smirk:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5363868 - 03/04/06 08:04 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

The Earth doesn't give you shit. I assure you, you have to work for everything you do. Go live in the woods with nothing and see how much the Earth gives you. Nothing is given, and nothing is free.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: psyka]
    #5364287 - 03/04/06 11:18 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

psyka said:
The Earth doesn't give you shit.



Am I to assume that you are floating through empty space as you type this?


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: psyka]
    #5364374 - 03/04/06 11:46 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

If I want support from humans, I will ask or pay them. If some human refuses me to get my support from nature only to sell his shit, I become angry.
Why are humans so smug on themselves ? They are dependent on nature and want to break loose from that, to be only dependend on themselves. Meanwhile they try to cut off those, who don't want to be dependend on humans, from their interconnection with nature, to make them dependent on humans, too.
I don't trust humans, as I find trust in nature. Yada you will say, humans are from nature. But there is something, what seperates them from it, perhaps it is called conscious intelligence :frown:

fire, I did not know that fireworks_god as a person doesn't exist. That makes everything clear (thank you for clearing that up) as it is hard for me debating with 'puppets', as they represent only a part of reality, by definition :frown:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5364612 - 03/04/06 01:31 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
If I want support from humans, I will ask or pay them. If some human refuses me to get my support from nature only to sell his shit, I become angry.




You emotionally react when a natural aspect of life continues to transpire. So what?

Quote:


Why are humans so smug on themselves ? They are dependent on nature and want to break loose from that, to be only dependend on themselves.




I thought we were discussing how we suspossedly have a birth-right to live and to utilize natural resources, and how your claim that such a natural birth-right exists is false. Instead you keep analyzing myself and "humans". :wtf:

Quote:


Meanwhile they try to cut off those, who don't want to be dependend on humans, from their interconnection with nature, to make them dependent on humans, too.




The nature of operating within a society and that of specialization of tasks ensures that we are dependant on other humans, and that there is practically no manner in which one could escape being dependant on others.

Our interactions as human beings amongst ourselves is our interconnection with nature. It is impossible to be "independant" from nature, and it is a vauge generalization to assert that human beings attempt to seperate themselves from it.

Quote:


Yada you will say, humans are from nature. But there is something, what seperates them from it, perhaps it is called conscious intelligence :frown:




Consciousness or intelligence is an emergent trait from nature, of course.

Quote:


fire, I did not know that fireworks_god as a person doesn't exist.




Oh, I would have thought that recognizing that an identity referred to as "fireworks_god" whose existance lies solely contingent upon written text within an Internet forum does not actually exist as a person would be quite obvious. :smirk:

Quote:


That makes everything clear (thank you for clearing that up) as it is hard for me debating with 'puppets', as they represent only a part of reality, by definition :frown:




Truly baffling statement. I'd suggest starting with the definition of archetype resultant from psychology. It is strange that you would expect a single aspect of reality to represent more than "a part" of reality. I think you simply have trouble with being questioned and being expected to explain the reasoning behind concepts when such reasoning does not exist.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5364781 - 03/04/06 02:30 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

then read my post again, perhaps next time you will get what I have to say.
You know what ? BlueCoyote is just another name for someone who truely exist and that person gives immense support for himself to be as much real as the person behind that name, as BlueCoyote himself is. I let BlueCoyote be a true representation of the person behind him..not just only a puppet to test out one aspect of reality, as many puppets here do :frown:

edit to thread: I have few to do with humans and so they have nothing to tell me. What I have to do with humans are forced issues upon me, which ever stay a compromise. All I have to do is with nature itself, best uninfluenced from humans, as I see, the intelligent consciousness does not good for every human, for the good of earth and the other humans. I try to not been influenced by humans in that predatorive egocentric and greedy matter, as I try to manage to go through life doing as less harm to others, as possible.
So I keep my birthright and thank g*d, that I am not invented by any human and am no property myself to anybody, except myself and g*d. Everyone who thinks I have to follow some bad intended laws of humans ill spirit, will eat granite from me.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (03/04/06 03:03 PM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5364889 - 03/04/06 03:02 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
then read my post again, perhaps next time you will get what I have to say.




I regret the fact that you choose to not discuss the topic at hand, the one that you yourself brought forth, suspossedly for discussion. Were you simply looking for agreement without questioning?

Perhaps next time I will get what you have to say if you actually engage in discussion of what you have to say in order to promote understanding. My mind doesn't mysteriously interlock with yours and I instantly grok what you are implying. :smirk:

Quote:


You know what ? BlueCoyote is just another name for someone who truely exist and that person gives immense support for himself to be as much real as the person behind that name, as BlueCoyote himself is.




You believe in a singular identity for who you are? Such a limited sense of oneself doesn't exactly reflect the reality of the matter. If you do not understand the concept of an archetype, then don't dismiss its mention out of ignorance. Usually the first step towards understanding is to question, provided, of course, that the person being asked about that which they proclaimed actually cares enough to answer.

Refering to an abstract sense of identity as an archetype is not of the same matter as that of simple "puppetry". A heightend sense of symbolism and representation of pattern cannot be reduced to such.

Quote:


I let BlueCoyote be a true representation of the person behind him..not just only a puppet to test out one aspect of reality, as many puppets here do :frown:




Someone of such reassurance of themselves and their character wouldn't become distracted by a mere "puppet" and abandon the topic they suspossedly wanted to discuss.

That said, what exactly is this "natural birth-right", and what aspect of it designates it as being granted by what aspect of nature? The simple fact that you have been born extends to mean that one has an inalienable right to access resources and to continue living?

Since you do not answer such questioning, I am left to infer that you referring to such a "right" as being respected by a certain, unnamed natural law. I am requesting how such a law directly contradicts the fact that nature has no respect for life and its needs, that it is strictly an impartial system of interaction, and that one has to establish for themselves the right to consume resources and to ensure his life continues to remain.

Try not to be distracted by the pink bunny wiggling its arms back and forth and focus on the ideas, please. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5364902 - 03/04/06 03:11 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

sorry fire, I added something while you were writing your post:
edit to thread: I have few to do with humans and so they have nothing to tell me. What I have to do with humans are forced issues upon me, which ever stay a compromise. All I have to do is with nature itself, best uninfluenced from humans, as I see, the intelligent consciousness does not good for every human, for the good of earth and the other humans. I try to not been influenced by humans in that predatorive egocentric and greedy matter, as I try to manage to go through life doing as less harm to others, as possible.
So I keep my birthright and thank g*d, that I am not invented by any human and am no property myself to anybody, except myself and g*d. Everyone who thinks I have to follow some bad intended laws of humans ill spirit, will eat granite from me.

Perhaps I will try to get the concept of birth-right into some words, comming from me, but I am sure, that many philosophers have stated something about that (like Jean-Jacques Rousseau ), so I have to reread that too. The simplest view on that is, as I said before, too, the perspective of most native cultures who live in harmony with nature. Haven't you occupied yourself with that ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5364928 - 03/04/06 03:21 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
So I keep my birthright and thank g*d, that I am not invented by any human and am no property myself to anybody, except myself and g*d.




You assert that it is a birth-right, and that it is natural, but you never state what the birth-right is, or what justifies it beyond your own assertion that it is "right", and that it is "natural", despite the fact that no aspect of nature guarantees that one has a right to live.

Quote:


The simplest view on that is, as I said before, too, the perspective of most native cultures who live in harmony with nature. Haven't you occupied yourself with that ?




What is "living in harmony with nature"? Nature is an interdependant system of interaction of an environment. It would seem that anything that occurs is nature.

If anything, the ultimate inspiration for one to live in "harmony with nature" is to have a sense of ownership, to identify yourself with it, as an aspect of oneself and oneself being an aspect of it.

Is the concept of ownership anything more than an abstraction that we have created for ourselves? Not anymore than this "natural birth-right" you allude to is anything more than our own assertion as well. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5365171 - 03/04/06 05:07 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Only because some man invents some bullshit concepts about property over natural resources, what makes it impossible to me to get my support from nature directly should support agreement on that concept ? Forget it.
I am here, nobody asked me, if I will follow some previously invented concepts and laws. I will do follow those, who I think are right for me, too, and I will always battle those, which were imposed upon me and to which I am not in acceptance.

This is one of my natural birth rights, for example.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (03/04/06 05:29 PM)


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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5365233 - 03/04/06 05:31 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Only because some man invents some bullshit concepts about property over natural resources, what makes it impossible to me to get my support from nature directly should support agreement on that concept ? Forget it.




Its more possible without as much effort to sustain a life from whatever means of access to resources one has in this day and age than it ever was before now. Before man had created some "bullshit" concept of ownership, you would be handed a stick with a sharpened end and would be expected to assist in murdering an animal sixty-six times the weight of oneself. Is this what you refer to when you mention directly supporting oneself off of natural resources? :grin:

Quote:


I am here, nobody asked me, if I will follow some previously invented concepts and laws. I will do follow those, who I think are right for me, too, and I will always battle those, which were imposed upon me and to which I am not in acceptance.




I am here, and nobody asked me if I wished to be thrust into a situation where I must actively support my life, which is a fragile concept that can, at any time, be taken away.

I understand the fact that we have a right to bring change to the aspects of reality that effect us, but yet you are rather unclear as to exactly which is unjust that is inflicted upon you, and what it is that you seek to bring forth.

I realize this isn't what we were originally discussing, but I'll go with the flow and continue to pursue any discussion that might possibly be allowed to result. :wink:

Quote:


This is my natural birth right, for example.




What is? The ability to create change?

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5365243 - 03/04/06 05:37 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Because like other primates, we're territorial.

If it's yours, it's yours. The more money, property you have, the more properous you are. It's all about attracting and keeping a mate.


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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: Xris]
    #5365334 - 03/04/06 06:17 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Xris said:
If it's yours, it's yours.  The more money, property you have, the more properous you are.  It's all about attracting and keeping a mate.




I disagree. Our human nature is that we can create for ourselves any motivation for our actions or any manner in which we wish to represent reality. Money as a resource of effort and ownership of land are means by which to fufill the necessities for continued life, which subsequently yields forth the realm of our experience.  I do not seek to own land some day as a means to attract or to keep a mate, but to have an environment in which I can cultivate my physical surroundings in order to facilitate my mental landscapes. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5366541 - 03/05/06 05:23 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Can I see your existence permission ownership card ?
It soon will be time for air ownership, too. Have you saved your rights ? CO2 emission licences are only the beginning.
When will there be mobility tax, and relaxation tributes ? Ah ok, we still need that chip been implanted ? No, don't worry we will find some other ways :lol:

I claim ownership upon all light which enters earth atmosphere ! Now come and buy some !

No better, I claim right upon all carbon atoms of the universe !
TV-Spot: Have you paid your carbons lately ? Remember, they are not yours and we may take it.

The primitive principle is the same in any case: First they will take it from you and then you may pay for it, if you are lucky, while holding you down with power and might, money and weapons,  nonsense arguments and yada concepts of society and justice and nescessity and lies and brainwash and so forth and so on, while they grow more fat and greedy. They will call the nescessity to eat, greed and predatory, for justification and masking of their evil deeds and to make us blind with bullshit, that we may not see their mal intention and own real greed and real predatory, which only results out of injustice and imbalance and the refusal of natural rights to the people. Full stop.

Wake up, gals'n'guys !

Poor earth, silly humans :frown:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (03/05/06 06:13 AM)


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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5366580 - 03/05/06 06:45 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Your emotional, ironic rant notwithstanding, no one ever claimed that the concept of ownership was justified, beyond that of our own assertions, or even beneficial to our experience as human beings. That has been the point all along. :foreheadslap:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5366625 - 03/05/06 07:35 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

And I said how and why the concept of ownership arose, arises and will arise in human society and why it is blasphemous and why it is against nature.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5366629 - 03/05/06 07:42 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
And I said... why it is against nature.




In actuality, you have not demonstrated how the sense of ownership is agansit nature. In fact, this is the claim that has repeatedly been questioned and said questions ignored. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Owning the earth, and other blasphemies against nature [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5367254 - 03/05/06 12:28 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

We should look at naturally vs unnaturally a bit closer. I remember some threads here dealing with that, but with no single solutions.
In general, unnaturally is something, which doesn't fit into some kind of unconscious or unintelligent conscious context.
For example, as it is unnatural, at these times that penguins walk around at the Arctics, who did not find their way by their own.
Now there comes the part of intelligent consciousness. Somehow this specific consciousness is able to form abstract concepts, which it is able to force upon nature. This also seems to be a gradual process, as some concept can stay in tune with unconscious nature and some can derivate quite a lot.
Unfortunately humans seem to be the only ones on this planet who own this in some distinct way.

If there are penguins walking around the Arctic, and they did not find their way by themselves, but were moved by some external intelligent consciousness (humans shipping them there), then it is some unnatural state.
Don't ask me exactly, when the human intelligent conscious deeds (mostly following abstract concepts) start to leave the natural level, but it also seems to be a matter of spirituality.

Perhaps you will see this as a rant again, but as far as I know, the only concepts of unnaturally are in context with humans. Perhaps we can bring the exploration of the deviation points a bit forward then ? This might share some light for you on the human intelligent and conscious concept of unnatural property :lol:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (03/05/06 12:44 PM)


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