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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Biological and lingustic evolution * 2
    #24089975 -

Deniers of evolution sometimes claim that if it were really happening, there would be geno- and phenotypically intermediate forms representing a very large number of species -- many different shades, not just several different colors. Of course we know this isn't the case. Well, the evolution of language is precisely analogous to that of species. Languages can be related to each other, but most are not so closely related that they represent intermediate forms. German is related to English, and it is similar, but it is also very different. It's the same with French and Spanish, Latin and Greek, etc. So, we have biological forms that are not phenotypically right next to each other -- like, say, a baboon and a gorilla. Just as we have related languages which are not linguistically extremely close -- like Pali and Sanskrit, or Arabic and Persian. The evolution of forms works in very similar ways for both biological and linguistic-cultural phenomena. And so we have tremendous and interesting diversity.

Do you find validity in this analogy? Do you feel that linguistic or cultural evolution works in similar ways to biological evolution?


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Biological and lingustic evolution [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24090325 -

Quote:
Do you feel that linguistic or cultural evolution works in similar ways to biological evolution?


I think it may work in a similar way but that the driver or motivation behind linguistic or cultural evolution is down to how well the individuals can control their environment instead of simply how well they can survive within it.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Biological and lingustic evolution [Re: sudly]
    #24090358 -

Possibly, but the process of mutation and selection could be highly analogous between the two. One process works through genes, and the other, memes. Units mutate and are selected for on the basis of how they survive in the natural environment on the one hand, and how they survive within human societies, on the other. Self-reflective, symbolic thinking and language provide the framework for meme evolution to take place in collectives of individuals. Evolution is taking place in fairly different yet quite similar ways through both avenues, it would seem.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Biological and lingustic evolution [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24090389 -

I suppose language could be 'selectively evolved' over time in a way that I guess would mirror biological evolution in a sense of survival of the fittest.

That and almost all of our words have essentially evolved from ancient Latin.

Quote:
One process works through genes, and the other, memes.


:tongue2:


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Biological and lingustic evolution [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24090401 -

Quote:
Do you find validity in this analogy?


no. biomechanics and language are as far apart as can be, language is a man made convention and reflects/describes his state of awareness, biomechanics  is not even remotely understood, evolution is a bad theory that is logically untenable, energy flows from fine to gross, never the other way.


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i like you...

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Re: Biological and lingustic evolution [Re: sudly]
    #24090408 -

The access each variation has to the larger pool of traits is what dominates the linguistic system. It wont get passed on unless it explodes.

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Re: Biological and lingustic evolution [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #24090423 -

DividedQuantum said:
Deniers of evolution sometimes claim that if it were really happening, there would be ... intermediate forms ....many different shades, not just several different colors. Of course we know this isn't the case. Well, the evolution of language is precisely analogous .....
Do you find validity in this analogy? Do you feel that linguistic or cultural evolution works in similar ways to biological evolution?


my best guess is:

in the case of lions (for example) we don’t have intermediate steps, because the strongest will out compete, thus eliminating, the previous steps, that lead up to them.

in the case of human societies, just as in high school, where there is always a separation of kids into Cliques, humans always separate into groups, and like animals compete, (with the added level of war which is often even more deadly), hence intermediate shades are either assimilated or eliminated.

And in both cases once separated, groups may also move further apart to new niches, to which they adapt, and in doing so acquire greater differences than simple shades.

So yes it seems a similar process.

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Re: Biological and lingustic evolution [Re: laughingdog]
    #24090539 -

Good points.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Biological and lingustic evolution [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #24090723 -

I wonder how much evolutionary "biologists" aka eugenicists who want to talk of "survival of the fittest" (they decide just who is fit i.e. genetically viable for reproduction without some disease) compares to language where a group of bankers for example has a language that only they really understand that is used to once again dominate or lawyers who have to learn all kinds of obscure stuff to once again dominate.

In conclusion, it's all about dominating.  Likely the oppressed developed their own language to not let the masters know what they were saying e.g. patois in Jamaica.  The locals were hard to understand there, once they shifted to patois it was to communicate with you out of the loop. 

Subdivisions



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Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: Biological and lingustic evolution [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24091432 -

I personally don't think linguistic or cultural evolution works in similar ways as biological evolution....mother nature seems pretty efficient on all her processes......humans not so much.

Look how dolphins have evolved (I am more of  a proponent for a mixture of adaptation/evolution than purely evolution).
Their language is still very much a mystery to us.


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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Re: Biological and lingustic evolution [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #24091535 -

LunarEclipse said:
I wonder how much evolutionary "biologists" aka eugenicists who want to talk of "survival of the fittest" (they decide just who is fit i.e. genetically viable for reproduction without some disease) compares to language where a group of bankers for example has a language that only they really understand that is used to once again dominate or lawyers who have to learn all kinds of obscure stuff to once again dominate.

In conclusion, it's all about dominating.  Likely the oppressed developed their own language to not let the masters know what they were saying e.g. patois in Jamaica.  The locals were hard to understand there, once they shifted to patois it was to communicate with you out of the loop. 

Subdivisions




well put


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Give me Liberty caps or give me Death caps.

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Re: Biological and lingustic evolution [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24091990 -

The analogy might be valid - it reminds me of Gause's Law, otherwise known as the competitive exclusion principle.

Intermediate species do not exist because they are too similar to the original to have their own niche, and they are consequently destroyed in competition with both the old and the new.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

Edited by viktor (02/15/17 03:55 AM)

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Re: Biological and lingustic evolution [Re: viktor]
    #24092133 -

probably the evolution of language (from many to few) and of idea formation is best correlated with the "evolution history" of work within temporal frameworks and the technologies that are spawned from time based concepts:

starting with the sharing of hunting strategies  (pre-seasonal to seasonal - in which our ancestors behaved like refined pack animals leaving behind cave paintings and spear heads.)

progressing through agricultural works (seasonal planning and management, leaving behind pottery shards jewelry and fabrics)

Probably the most dialects (language variations) were prevalent to serve communities and guilds while encompassing the description of materials and methods for producing metals and cloths.

Selecting for fewer dialects is the gradual history of large earthwork planning and mining - including larger buildings and the integration of water and wind mills with the rise of manufacturing.

just rambling


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Biological and lingustic evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24092138 -

The supposedly clean nuclear industry is killing us softly, with its unsung death.  The plan is to actually build more of these monuments to death.  Well, the show must go on, we must "progress" and make "progress" or we "regress".

Toshiba just went belly up like all those whales, dead from the nuclear "industry".  Oh they are dead.  To those wanting to make $$, short that beached whale.  6502:T.



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Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: Biological and lingustic evolution [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #24093122 -

nuclear sucks


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Biological and lingustic evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24093154 -

redgreenvines said:
nuclear sucks


It'll be interesting to see just how the THREE meetings between Trump and Abe pan out, and what happens with Toshiba.


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Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: Biological and lingustic evolution [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #24094065 -

DividedQuantum said:
Deniers of evolution sometimes claim that if it were really happening, there would be geno- and phenotypically intermediate forms representing a very large number of species -- many different shades, not just several different colors. Of course we know this isn't the case. Well, the evolution of language is precisely analogous to that of species. Languages can be related to each other, but most are not so closely related that they represent intermediate forms. German is related to English, and it is similar, but it is also very different. It's the same with French and Spanish, Latin and Greek, etc. So, we have biological forms that are not phenotypically right next to each other -- like, say, a baboon and a gorilla. Just as we have related languages which are not linguistically extremely close -- like Pali and Sanskrit, or Arabic and Persian. The evolution of forms works in very similar ways for both biological and linguistic-cultural phenomena. And so we have tremendous and interesting diversity.

Do you find validity in this analogy? Do you feel that linguistic or cultural evolution works in similar ways to biological evolution?


I think the analogy could work, but the main difference is not the unit of transmission i.e. genes and memes, it is the selection pressures which guide evolution and the time spans. Language evolution would have some similar, but still drastically different selection pressures. Language is useful because it allows us to survive by interpreting the past and planning for the future. This is consistent with biological evolution. But, because this happens so fast, language evolution could take seconds compared to biological evolution which takes a number of generations, we get a lot of things wrong with regards to our evolution of language. It is easy to conjure up fear in the hearts of the masses in part because of this lag. I could say "THERE IS A TIGER OVER THERE!!" and you would be afraid, at least for a second regardless of the actual existence of said tiger. I don't think biological evolution for the most part is that clumsy.


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Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

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Re: Biological and lingustic evolution [Re: blingbling]
    #24094313 -

all these concepts are relative to one another.

the dominating factor is language, ie, communication. no relationships in communication, no nothing.

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Re: Biological and lingustic evolution [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24102681 -

I do agree the similarities are there.  Once you get it, evolution by selection becomes such a basic and fundamental principle that it is easy to cast it in areas outside of biology and genetics.  It not only easy, but its tempting and seductive to do so.  I do it.  When I do I make sure to deliberately step back and re-evaluate. 

What are the key components to evolution by selection?  The first that comes to my mind is reproduction.  But not a perfect reproduction, and not a whole imperfect reproduction either.  The jargon to use would be reproduction with a high, but not perfect fidelity.  Language certainly seems to fit this bill.  When it reproduces the new copy is nearly the same, but not exactly, to the old copy.

The other component that comes to my mind is the environment, or more technically the fitness landscape.  In biology the fitness landscape is constantly in flux and is indeed involved in a feedback loop between itself and gene-bearing life.  I don't think this feedback loop is necessary for evolution to exist.  I don't even think a fitness landscape in flux is necessary, a static one will do.  In the case of language the fitness landscape must represent a language's ability to communicate effectively.  The language of a long extinct tribe would presumably be unfit to communicate modern technical and scientific ideas.  Similarly, our modern english may not have words and structure necessary to describe the ancient tribe's demon haunted world.  The famous (but maybe not true?) idea that Eskimos have many words for snow comes to mind.  Languages evolve in accordance to the fitness landscape they live in.

With these two pieces in place the analogy seems to hold.  I think it would be interesting to see how corollaries and theorems derived from biological evolution apply to language and where they fail.  In biology, in the beginning and among laymen there is confusion about what the "unit" of evolution is.  Is it the individual, the herd, the species?  I think you can cast evolution at any and all of those levels.  But what seems to be the primary or best level to model evolution, at least in laymens terms, is the gene (as famously described by Dawkins' book).  What is the linguistic analog of a gene?  Of a phenotype?  We know that a genotype my express differently with different expression mechanisms.  Maybe the rough analogy could be words themselves as genes and meaning being the phenotype.  Maybe this is the point where the analogy starts to break down.  Maybe few theorems and corollaries exist between linguistic and biological evolution.  In which case the analogy seems to be mostly aesthetic.

Your description of intermediate forms and deniers brings me pause.  If you asked me about them before reading this thread I would have said that intermediate forms do exist.  When faced with them, deniers simply move the goalposts and expect higher resolution.  In terms of language, I would naively say intermediate forms exist as well.  That is not the case though huh?

Reading back on this it looks like I have written nothing novel or of added value to the topic. lol, oh well  Ill post it anyway.

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Re: Biological and lingustic evolution [Re: DieCommie]
    #24102706 -

Very interesting and insightful post. As for intermediate forms, some in this thread have suggested that they do exist, but are driven to extinction because the most developed forms of the new organism compete better and essentially "steal" the niche. At the very least, the in-betweeners are gone. There is nothing in between German and English, although both can be traced to common roots. There is also nothing in between bears and wolves, which are similarly "cousins." Perhaps the reasoning in previous posts is right, or there is some other explanation. I really don't know. Nevertheless, I appreciate your comments.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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