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nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI
    #2165980 -


In the "humans evolved with mushrooms" there seems to be a confusion between mental and physical evolution. The original poster makes a claim that man evolved with psychadelics and it is refuted with the arguement that shrooms won't change your genetics anymore than weighlifting will make your offspring stronger...

While that is true, human's physical evolution has been static for about 40,000-50,000 years. Within that time there was a "mental big bang" that took place. Early humanoids formed tribes, began creating culture, educating their offspring, farming, and eventually societies formed. (source PBS documentary Evolution, the mind's big bang)

So when you argue claims about mushrooms and evolutions, you are approaching it at the wrong angle.


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"Plus one upvote +1..."
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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2165986 -

so, how come nowadays all the people making the scientific breakthroughs arent using mushrooms?

how many reeeely intelligent people who have contributed to the intellectual strasosphere have been mushroom users?

cite 5 legitimate examples


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: Positronius]
    #2166010 -

Quote:
so, how come nowadays all the people making the scientific breakthroughs arent using mushrooms?



They're illegal, they are hard to come by.

Quote:
how many reeeely intelligent people who have contributed to the intellectual strasosphere have been mushroom users?



You're thinking about this the wrong way. It doesn't mean you take a drug, gain 50 IQ points, and have access to a library full of information and ideas.

The thesis is, drugs can alter your perception. Depending on the person, this can result in new or improved ideas or increased creativity. Or it could result in you sitting on the couch for a few hours listening to music.

I don't have a source for this, but I have heard that there is not much difference in the way that the brain works for a genius or schizophrenic. A genius is not necessary a person who advances the "stratosphere of intelligence" but a person who is able to see something that others couldn't see. Often times, insights aren't deeply profound or complicated, rather, they are something very simple (I.E the invention of the wheel or crop rotation).

Some drugs could have facilitated mental breakthroughs for early man. I am not able to provide sources for this, nor is this statement provable by any means. I've admitted that, so, if you don't believe it, don't believe it. It is an idea...


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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2166017 -

I agree that there are definitly positive aspects to altering one's perception....if one is an intelligent and positive person in the first place. I dont think mushrooms give a human any new information, they only get a new perspective on the information they are allready working with.

a dumb-dumb does mushrooms and he goes and fights someone at a party, just as he would have done if he was on coke, or drunk. Ive seen it.

I dont think drugs are in anyway associated with man's mental evolution. Thinking is the cause of mans mental evolution. And drugs dont make you think unless you're allready a thinker. Lots of intelligent people use mushrooms, but mushrooms are NOT their source of intelligence.


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2166024 -

post script.

Something else about the mushrooms and devolution just struck me. Swami had that list with five items on it. Seems true enough, but I wonder if this is POST HOC ERGO PROPTER HOC logic. Drug use doesn't necessarily cause these things, it probably just correlates with certain types of individuals. I can think of many people who's lives have been ruined or badly affected by substance abuse (shit!!! everybody I know), but a lot of these people weren't going anywhere with there lives anyways.

I like a lot of the things Positronius and Swami say regarding these issues, but blah, it just makes me feel so ambivalent.


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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: Positronius]
    #2166032 -

beat me to it by three minutes

there is one thing, though

Quote:
I dont think drugs are in anyway associated with man's mental evolution. Thinking is the cause of mans mental evolution. And drugs dont make you think unless you're allready a thinker. Lots of intelligent people use mushrooms, but mushrooms are NOT their source of intelligence



affirming the consequence?


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"Plus one upvote +1..."
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-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2166065 -

right on, special ed :thumbup:
i truely appreciate your wording on this matter.


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: Viaggio]
    #2166068 -

You know, I really hate McDonalds. But its almsot 7 am, and I really could use one of their chocolate sundays and a coffee. Man Alive, just think of it; grab a coffee, some ice cream, throw on Jarmusch's night on earth. Sounds great.


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2166125 -

Some drugs could have facilitated mental breakthroughs for early man.

Perhaps, but this is inspiration NOT evolution and "could have" is a poor argument. An example or two would be much stronger.

As to McKenna, he made two major points about mushroom usage, both of which I find either faulty or irrelevant.

1. Low dose mushroom usage is a stimulant and this mild agitation leads to increased sexaul activity.

Rebuttal: (Besides never feeling personally hornier on mushrooms like on alcohol or cannabis) Man has never had a known problem being sexually active. 6.5 billion people exists today of whom probably over 99% (insert your own figure) are not mushroom users.

2. Low dose mushroom usage increases visual acuity which increase hunting prowess.

Rebuttal: While visual acuity is indeed slighty increased, this ability only lasts for a short time and is not that pronounced. Hunting parties were a rather organized affair and getting the mushroom dosage and timing right would be clearly counter-productive. I would hate to be facing a lion as I (or a hunting partner) am accidentally peaking, "Wow Gnarg, look at the cool electric mane on that cat. Can you feel its feral energy? I am about to merge with it's essence."


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: Swami]
    #2166147 -

Quote:
Perhaps, but this is inspiration NOT evolution



It seems then, that we are arguing over what evolution means.

Quote:
and "could have" is a poor argument. An example or two would be much stronger.



It's not really an arguement. It's more of an ad hoc explanation. I will openly admit I have no evidence to support any of my claims. I am just maintaining a hypothesis that mushrooms could have influenced early man's mind, and it could have been for the better. You can call this evolution or cultural developement, but I don't want to confuse the issue with semantics.


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"Plus one upvote +1..."
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-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----

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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: Swami]
    #2168638 -

Swami,

I will have to disagree with your second rebuttal.

Have you ever, personally, hunted at all and/or on enthogeans?

Cause if you have you would understand that hunting is more than just running down some quarry with a rifle. Stalking, patience, tracking, strategies that can benefit from a boost of power. I have had nothing but positive results when hunting on mushrooms or acid. Both are very helpful allies in hunting game. The last deer I took, I was trippin on a half a hit of paper. Not an extreme dose by anymeans. However, I was able to move through the woods with an unusual stealth.

Two springs ago, I was turkey hunting on Mushrooms. Brought down a young tom after a two hour belly crawl up a creekbank and called in two. I took the one that was farthes away. Not only does sight increase, hearing and overall attention increases. Shooting, stalking and overall patience increase dramitacally when hunting with power. So, I will have to disagree with your statement that enthogeans do not aid in hunting. Look at the majority of "primitave" cultures in South America and tell me enthogeans aren't used for allies in hunting game>

BTW the analogy you use where the hunter is trippin on the felines aura is a total fabrication imagined by someone who hasn't hunted for sustenance. When someone is hunting for food they aren't playing games. It's a matter of life and death so I think they would take it a little more seriously than you allow them.

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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: medicinebag]
    #2168730 -

> Well maybe not the actual scientist them self has used them, but what about people who have influenced them through music and sci-fi other creative books.

These are the people who probable have used Psychedelics and are passing on the same ideas and concepts that other wise WOULD not have been thought of because of psychedelics.

I guess it could be seen like a virus passing from one computer to the other, you only need to read it to catch it. This could be like sub-consciousness programming through archetypes imagery ect.


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Fighting the man the best way I can.

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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: medicinebag]
    #2168754 -

Quote:
The last deer I took, I was trippin on a half a hit of paper. Not an extreme dose by anymeans. However, I was able to move through the woods with an unusual stealth.


Excellent post, thanks for sharing that.

I think that when people hear someone say "psychedelics enhance an activity", they are assuming a heavy dose with strong hallucinations. I've had the most success with low doses. I haven't hunted, but I've played games of skill and reflex (paintball, CS, BF1942, Continuum) and my play is greatly enhanced on low doses of LSD and mushrooms. I recommend becoming very experienced with the game before experimenting with psychedelics, and I'm sure that holds true with hunting as well.


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man = monkey + mushroom

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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: Positronius]
    #2168762 -

Quote:
so, how come nowadays all the people making the scientific breakthroughs arent using mushrooms?




Carl Sagan
John Lilly
Steven Pinkerton
Aldous Huxley (might not be accurate to call him a scientist,but he did have a wide range of knowledge on the subject)
Bill Gates (not a hard scientist,but invented some "computer science")
Tim Leary (technically did some scientific work)
Albert Hoffman (of course)
Alexander Shulgin
Those are just confirmed. A lot of physicists are rumored to be psychedelic users. And inumerious chemists,pharmacologists,biologists,and medical doctors.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams

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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: monoamine]
    #2168819 -

A lot of physicists are rumored to be psychedelic users

And a lot of scientists period. But being known for using mind-expanding drugs can kill a career. So for every one that admits it, its safe to assume there are many, many more that use it in their work and don't admit it.

I'll use John Lilly as an example since I have read several of his books and know him best. He didn't admit to using LSD or mushrooms in his research until years after his contributions and inventions gained widespread acceptance. It wasn't until he was in his 70's and the research portion of his career was long over that he came out on using mind-expanding drugs in his work.


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I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: monoamine]
    #2168821 -

Im curious as to where you got that info on Bill Gates. Do you have a link or anything?

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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: monoamine]
    #2168823 -

All of those men also drank water, so what?

Was Hoffman tripping on or before he discovered LSD?

No!

What did he discover / invent as a direct result of his trips?

Dunno.

Could go down the whole list. Once again, without showing cause and effect, your stance is unsupported.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2169181 -

Maybe it's a bogus rumor, but I heard a couple of times that the DNA Double Helix structure was invisionned on an acid trip, or some other kind of drug..

Anyone else hear of it?

  :oogle:


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Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..

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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2169197 -

Read Francis Crick's book on the discovery of the double-helix. He mentioned nothing like that.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2169233 -

You're probably thinking of nobel laureate Kary Mullis who discovered the polymerase chain reaction. It is used to clone DNA. I've read an interview with him where he claimed that the idea for PCR came to him on an acid trip.

Here's an account of his first acid trip:

http://www.csp.org/chrestomathy/dancing_naked.html


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"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."
Aldous Huxley

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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: Swami]
    #2169238 -

"Read Francis Crick's book on the discovery of the double-helix. He mentioned nothing like that."
----------------------


You are correct in saying that it is not publicly mentionned. As I said, it may simply be a rumor.


This was not an attempt at discrediting mind you. I was just curious.


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Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..

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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: Swami]
    #2169254 -

Here's a link to a thread I started awhile back about Psychedelics and evolution.  I'm only posting it because I've been seeing the same arguements being rehashed all over again in several new threads in the forum.  Also iin this thread is a link to ANOTHER thread on the same topic started by pattern, I think.  This thread is also excellent. 

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=Forum11&Number=2053735&Forum=

Quote:
The original poster makes a claim that man evolved with psychadelics and it is refuted with the arguement that shrooms won't change your genetics anymore than weighlifting will make your offspring stronger...




First of all, the assumption that since mushrooms dont have a direct effect on the user's DNA means that they havent influenced our evolution is asinine, and indicates a profound lack of understanding of the science of evolution. 

Evolution predates DNA.  Or do you think that Darwin was some kind of anachronistic geneticist who used his time-travelin choo-choo train to go back to the 1800's and set up shop?  :lol:

Anyway, I think its pretty safe to assume that every aspect of our natural environment has had some effect on our evolution.  And many socio-cultural factors have had evolutionary impacts as well. Being that mushrooms and certain other substances directly effect the brain and nervous system, and that they are aspects of both our natural and social environment, I would say its pretty safe to assume that they meet the qualifications of an evolutionary stressor on the brain.  The impacts of this stressor have not been fully explored, but I do believe they have been mostly positive.

Edited by DoctorJ (12/08/03 03:37 PM)

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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2170192 -

First of all, the assumption ... is asinine,

Anyway, I think its pretty safe to assume...

I would say its pretty safe to assume...

Your thoughts about safety mean nothing. How about some ACTUAL references.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: Swami]
    #2173134 -

Swami,

How come you didn't respond to my post?

The one about hunting on medicine. It should be addressed. Later, Chief.

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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: medicinebag]
    #2174651 -

Maybe the reason that the people coming up with all the scientific breakthroughs today arent mushroom users (Pretending the assumption is a fact anyway), Is the same reason why there hasnt BEEN ANY MAJOR Brakethroughs at all in a number of years. Everything we once invented has been simply made 1,000 times better thats it. If i recall history corectly the last scientific breakthrough was the computer in the late 70s early 80s. Just as this country was coming out of its "LSD" period. The computer, technology now embraced by many Psychadelic users. Hmmm.....


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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: Spokesman]
    #2174675 -

Saying that the last scientific breakthrough was the computer is like saying that the Stealth fighter jet isn't all that different from the Wright Brothers' contraption.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: Sclorch]
    #2174825 -

the difference between the stealth fighter and the wright brothers is computer technology.


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2174873 -

the argument that eating mushrooms catalyzed the evolution of human conscousness or whatever is based on a flawed idea of both biology and evolution.

can someone please describe the exact mechanism by which using psychedelics could have caused "mental evolution" to take place? (also: please define "mental evolution").

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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: ]
    #2174924 -

making art

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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2174988 -

music


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Re: nooo.....it's MENTAL EVOLUTION SWAMI [Re: Spokesman]
    #2176733 -

The generation of advancements in methods of production?
The development of highly effective memes that impact a society's culture?  Are people arguing that mushrooms may have caused real physiological changes in the human brain?  Sounds a bit dubious to me, but then, what do I know?

These sorts of changes are really quite vague.  Frankly, the shapes clouds can take might have had as much of an effect as mushrooms.  But I'm sure they both influenced us strongly.  Good for clouds!!
:smile: :tongue2: :smile:


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Don't worry, I'm wrong.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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