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swami, may i come take your challenge?
    #2722504 -

hi swami, i was wondering if i could come to las vegas this month to take your challenge. a couple months to a year ago you said you had legal documents already written up and such, could you pm me about that and i'll give you my email address?

"i will start by spinning a single pinwheel in a direction. once i have spent probably about 20 minutes warming up the pinwheel will not stop until i say i'm going to stop it, or until i am signifigantly externally distracted. i will then change the direction of the spin and do the same.
then i will spin two pinwheels in opposite directions at the same time.
then i will spin three pinwheels kind of randomly.
then i will spin a pinwheel without having any body part near it.

during this demonstration i will require one room with no natural air currents.
i will require that poeple observing not move around, and wear something to cover thier mouth and nose to rule out breath moving it (as i will do)
if you want, i can bring magnets and electromagnets to count out electromagnetic causes.
i will wear heavy gloves if you like to cancel out "heat from your hand"

before the demonstration i will ask everyone to observe the pinwheel for several minutes, paying special attention to the pinwheel at rest, the pinwheel at rest with my hand next to it. the way the pinwheel moves when i breathe on it, the way the pinwheel moves when poeple move around and air currents push it. and finally the way the pinwheel moves when its just at rest (I.E. how much random air currents there are in the room and how strongly this affects the pinwheel)

i ask that you supply a couple thumbtacks and a peice of paper.

if there is anything else you can think of that would make this demonstration not credible, please get it out of the way now, i'm more than happy to work with you on figuring out if there could be any other factors involved, and i will test them extensively on my own before i go all the way to canada to make sure i haven't been deluding myself this whole time (although i've moved other stuff too, just the pinwheel is the only thing i can do reliably).
"


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2722580 -

Can you not do anything but the pinwheel? Nothing on a larger scale? I find it kind of odd that all of those that can do 'TK' use a pinwheel  :nut:

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2722897 -

Can you spin a pinwheel which is located under a glass bowl?


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2722920 -

whos paying for this ticket to vegas? or will you drive?


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: CleverName]
    #2723983 -

i can do stuff other than the pinwheel, but not with great regularity and certainly not in a preassure situation.

sometimes i can do it under glass, mostly i can't though, once again i wouldn't want to say i can do it under glass if 20k was at stake.

actually, a fellow shroomerite without meeting me, without being able to do TK himself (as far as i know) and without wanting to meet me in advance has offered to pay for my bus ticket to las vegas if swami agree's to set this up proper


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2724008 -

I hope you guys film the experienec!

Looking forward to what will happen!

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2724054 -

excellent, best wishes


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2724342 -

If you can move the pinwheel,why would you not be able to do it as easily under pressure while its under a bowl.I dont think a bowl would have any effect on TK if it is real.


--------------------
"There is no fire like lust, no grip like hate, no net like delusions, no river like craving."


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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: HypnoToad]
    #2724467 -

No, it is considerably harder. Some speculate that the only reason it is harder under something is because we expect it will be, while others think it being a solid is harder to penetrate than air with whatever causes telekinesis to work. But ya, ubder glass is harder.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2724596 -

um Swami are you going to reply? He seems to have his stuff togethor and has covered many possible angles? Are you allowing him to come visit you? I sure hope so cause you have boasted teh Swami challenge a long time
OK

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2724639 -

Are you trying to call his bluff, or what?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2724677 -

How is posting in this thread gonna get his attention to this thread any sooner?

Maybe you could spam his mind with telepathic thoughts : )

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2724802 -

Try sending him a PM :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: trendal]
    #2724825 -

I sent him a telepathic message just now. He should be arriving shortly :smirk:


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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2725062 -

You should also do a number of random trials where you have no telekinetic intent, to establish whether or not you intentions can actually be differentiated from random events.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #2725186 -

what the hell do you care phen? you've shown your level of interest in my claim in the other thread.

but he is correct. as part of the trail all observers will be required to watch the pinwheel for a long boring amount of time, just so they know the differnce bettween me attempting to do telekinesis and the pinwheel's natural momevment or lack there-of


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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2725881 -

try something bigger, like the weather, its more impressive if you spend a bit concentrating real hard as a storm starts and then watch the radar as the storm parts about a mile away and then re-joins itself a mile away.. 'cause that way, even if you're lying you're at least lying big

but seriously i've done that more than once, don't claim to have powers. just happens.
tho more opwer to you if you can actually prove soemthing

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2726021 -

shrug, you're only going to get more darth vader.


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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2726296 -

Hmm... getting an ordinary pinwheel to spin while housed inside glass would be most impressive.

If you were successful, I would personally see to it that you be given the opportunity to take Randi's $1 million challenge. Though a small feat, if it is proven to be truly due to telekinesis (and not a magic trick), you should be given a helluva lot of money to further research such a phenomenon.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2726298 -

Hell, I'd even settle for a simple asbestos tile (or some other very good insulator) between your hand and the pinwheel. Do you require eye contact with the pinwheel?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2726678 -

I can go without sleep for a really long time (my max. is 11 days) and be completely fine. Is that paranormal enough for $20,000 or a million?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: psyka]
    #2726707 -

you can stay awake for 11 days without any drugs?


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: CleverName]
    #2726719 -

Yep...it sucks :smile:

Nothing works for me. I just got these melatonin pills (I've tried melatonin before with the same results) that dissolve in your mouth 3 days ago. The first day I took two and they worked! The 2nd day I took 2 and I didnt get drowsy or anything. Last night I took 3 and yep...I'm still awake. I've also tried those tylenol pills that help you sleep and a lot of other things, all to no avail.

When I try to goto sleep, I end up just lying there meditating. I understand I am conscious because I am aware of the moment, but time passes by somewhat quick. Sometimes I get really light-headed it feels like there is a vortex of chaos in my head, and I have to promptly close my eyes and meditate otherwise I get confused and lose touch of things for awhile.

And yes, 11 days is my maximum number of days spent staying awake without drugs with the exception of food, cafeine and pot. I really wish it would go away though :smile: I miss dreaming. Who knows? Maybe I'm not supposed to sleep.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

Edited by psyka (05/25/04 07:33 AM)

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: psyka]
    #2726723 -

do you hallucinate at all?

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2726730 -

I used to see animals or things jump around at the corner of my eye, I'd go to look and nothing would be there. I also used to act very odd, because I didnt give a shit about anything due to extreme exhaustion. Nowadays, I'm very used to it and it doesnt bother me. Except the not dreaming anymore thing.

I do get some sleep, however the hours are very limited :frown: Maybe one out of three or four days I'll get 2-4 hours sleep.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: psyka]
    #2726944 -

Swami is staying omniously quiet. I'm expecting him to bust out a bunch of semantic spaghetti-logic intended to show your manner of setting up the experiment couldn't be conclusive if the topic doesn't get buried too soon. I doubt he'll offer a different procedure, though. Not that I'd blame him, for 20,000$ you wouldn't be able to prove to me that gravity is what makes apples fall down. If you ask me, apples fall down because they really want to get in the soil and have their seeds germinate. They fall down only because they're trying to. My point is that at a very fundmental level reality is self-defined.

Yeah, I've found that if you stay up for 40 hours or so, (generally I start to hallucinate around 45-70 hours and am overwhelmed by the desire for actual sleep after 82 hours) you can get away with just meditating and slipping into a trance that's really quite restful without actually losing conciousness. The REAL ticket is getting a little sleep-deprived and then meditating and passing out in such a manner that you manage to slip into a lucid dream. Pot helps for this, I've found. I've found that if I try to realize I'm alseep when I'm not all sleep-deprivation-passed-out the dream is too fragile and I end up waking up. I mean, even with the ideal circumstances like tasty bromomescaline (2C-B) nosecandy, it's still not necessarily 100% for sure that I can manipulate all aspects of the dream exactly as I'd like to. I've found it to be a lot like acid except that I'm technically not actually concious...


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Don't worry, I'm wrong.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Panoramix]
    #2727370 -

Actually, I think he may be out of town w/o a computer. I sent him an email yesterday or the day before and he hasn't replied. I'm sure he'll get to this if we can keep it on the first page.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2727439 -

I'll do my part, I've always wanted someone to give the whole Swami's Challenge thing a good going-over. I think possibly the main reason I think I'd be interesting is that should it actually get arranged I'm think Swami is quite bright enough to talk his way out of anything that isn't a pretty genuine 'paranormal' psychic event. I dunno though, something about being 20,000$ sure of one's beliefs strikes me as unhealthy. I can only hope he's proven wrong so that he can learn and continue to grow and change. Certitude leads to ossification, establishment leads to reactionism. If one spends all one's time defending a set of views (i.e. the mental cannot directly influence the physical), you end up missing out on not just the opposing view, but also on dialectic aspects of your own views.


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Don't worry, I'm wrong.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Panoramix]
    #2727631 -

"Yeah, I've found that if you stay up for 40 hours or so, (generally I start to hallucinate around 45-70 hours and am overwhelmed by the desire for actual sleep after 82 hours).."

I personally dont ever hallucinate from lack of sleep however after somewhere around 72 I tend to fall into trance states.I have had some very profound spiritual experiences from sleep deprivation.Most of the time gradually my sense of body fades and I find myself often communicating with beings in another realm.Usually it's some sort of waiting room type setting and I'm not allowed past this point and Im not even allowed to peek beyond this room.I do however learn alot from it.I spend what feels like hours or more in this place,however when I snap out of the trance state only a minute has gone by sometimes 2 minutes.It's strange.


--------------------
"There is no fire like lust, no grip like hate, no net like delusions, no river like craving."


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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: HypnoToad]
    #2727820 -

Sounds pretty cool. My hallucinations from just sleep depri are pretty low-key, more like obvious distortions and misinterpretations of the visual and auditory field. Yeah, what I find interesting is getting that faded sense of body and then going and talking with other people, because I find that as my sense of body fades, my ability to focus and empathize with other individuals increases. It's a cheaper way that getting drunk to increase one's sociability and eloquence. Speech becomes less like talking and more like writing, just a straight-out expression of ideas.


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Don't worry, I'm wrong.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Panoramix]
    #2728076 -

Panoramix said:
I dunno though, something about being 20,000$ sure of one's beliefs strikes me as unhealthy. I can only hope he's proven wrong so that he can learn and continue to grow and change. Certitude leads to ossification, establishment leads to reactionism. If one spends all one's time defending a set of views (i.e. the mental cannot directly influence the physical), you end up missing out on not just the opposing view, but also on dialectic aspects of your own views.


I think Swami is fairly certain that the laws of physics still do apply.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: TheCow]
    #2728148 -

Telekinesis does not go against the laws of physics, but rather is just a part of undeveloped laws. Just because 'science' hasn't made a breakthrough with it yet does not mean it's not factual. For all we know, humans could have the ability to change their elctrical currents sunconsciously, to affect nearby atoms, which would still apply by the laws of physics.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: TheCow]
    #2728178 -

There are no physical "laws"...only theories which seem to apply to reality. This is evidenced by the rather continuous overthrow of scientific theories once known as "law".

Newton came up with a "law" for gravity. Some people still call it his "law of gravity". Yet is was shown, almost a hundred years ago now, to be wrong. A close aproximation...but not the whole story.

I have championed the cause of science my entire life, yet it would be foolish of me to cast away my mind and actually believe in anything science says. Science is not, and should not be, in the business of creating beliefs. For the simple reason that science is not always correct. :wink:

What I'm getting at is: what we know to be "laws" of nature today...tomorrow people will laugh at and wonder how we could have believed such silly ideas. :smirk:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: trendal]
    #2728214 -

Yeah, I agree with trendal. A hundred years ago, people would have been incredibly skeptical of the advances our society has made. A good example is with satellites in space, sending visual information to a reciever to watch changing digital pictures that we percieve as two dimensional motion. Basically, do not let science limit your beliefs, but rather allow your beliefs to expand on science. :smile:

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: deff]
    #2728465 -

My main problem with believing in something such as this, is the fact that it is entirely different to humans making progress in say satellites. Humans have been using their bodies for many a year, and I think during all that time someone would have noticed that we can in fact use telekenisis. As far as the laws of physics are concerned I was more talking about conservation of energy. I do not see how this could fall into conserving energy. Are we supposed to be transfering energy from our hand to under a glass bowl, and then it moves a piece of paper? Maybe I do not fully understand something about this, but it seems highly illogical.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: TheCow]
    #2728792 -

There is another possibility: telekinesis and related phenomena are an emerging ability of humans. If that was the case, I would expect to see things happen as they do: telekinesis would generally be a weak ability, if present at all, in most people.

Now, as for "believing" in these things...well I think that all "beliefs" are silly things to hold onto. Whether it's a belief in science or a belief in psychic/tk/ect abilities...it's a very silly thing to hold onto. Instead, use what you can learn and prove to yourself (beyond a reasonable doubt) to make theories about what is possible. I could probably come up with at least a few theories, based in modern science, which would support the existence of tk and/or psychic ability.

As I have not witnessed a demonstration of either ability...I can not make any real claims as to their truth/falsity.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: TheCow]
    #2728799 -

"...but it seems highly illogical." Thank you for that, Mr. Spock.

Higher physics can get pretty illogical sometimes, but there's a degree of randomness that exists in reality that can't be explained otherwise. Theoretically there's a defined and measurable pattern to the way anything does anything, and pointing your finger at the pinwheel and shooting energy through glass into it causing it to move in an anonymalous manner is necessarily every aspect of what we're talking about, here.


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Don't worry, I'm wrong.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: TheCow]
    #2728806 -

Well think of this. You are made completely out of energy, manifested into the physical via atoms. Trillions and trillions of electrons, protons, and neutrons, also make up the air around you, as well as the object in question (ie- a pinwheel). Somehow our consciousness has the ability to manipulate the energy within our own body. The energy all around you is the same however. Whether physical energy, like atoms, or another form (ie- light), if it is broken down far enough, it's assumed to be made of all the same 'particles' (String theory). This means that the entire physical existence is just one changing and morphing energy comprised of almost infinite amount of identical particles. It's true that energy, or 'matter', cannot be created or destroyed (in reference to your mention of the conservation of energy). However, what force manipulates these particles into the infinitely vast and evolving energy that it is? My opinion is consciousness. Not just human consciousness, but all consciousness in the universe. Plants, animals (humans included), and on a larger scale, higher beings comprised of atoms that to us are solar systems. However, each only holds such a small fragment of the true single unified consciousness. For example, a plant has the ability to grow using photosynthesis, thereby affecting the rest of the universe (re: Chaos Theory). While this may not have as large of an impact on the universe as say, a person nuking the earth into asteroids, the result is the same - change. So what's to say our limited shred of consciousness cannot be extended beyond our physical bodies and affect equally created objects comprised of the same energy? I know it's real, I've done it. I don't however know *why* it works, just like I don't know *why* I exist.

The above should not be treated as factual, but rather just my guess at how this may work. I'm probably way off, but I do know for fact that telekinesis does work.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: TheCow]
    #2728808 -

"Are we supposed to be transfering energy from our hand to under a glass bowl, and then it moves a piece of paper? "

|Energy in the physics sense isn't real...it's a concept so we can analyze motion. I can't go out and get a machine that can measure your "potential energy" nor kinetic. energy is conserved because we have defined it that way, it's not real, it's a concept in our heads.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Panoramix]
    #2728843 -

"Higher physics can get pretty illogical sometimes"

where?

"but there's a degree of randomness that exists in reality that can't be explained otherwise"

there has always been this degree of error. scientists know this.

"and pointing your finger at the pinwheel and shooting energy through glass into it causing it to move in an anonymalous manner is necessarily every aspect of what we're talking about"

for physics, energy is a concept, it's not real, just a concept we made up in order to analyze moving particles. you can't shoot out potential or kinetic energy our your fingers.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: kaiowas]
    #2728847 -

shlorch, assuming i really can do TK, and for now i understand thats a big assumption, all the things i've been saying about james randi and the government and modern psionic science is also true.

if i can really do TK, there is no way i can get hooked up with scientists or james randi.

BTW, i know someone that can do large scale TK (like levitate books and shit) that took the preliminaries (i'm not sure of what exactly she did in it, i think levitated various things) and 3 months later she got a letter saying she was disqualified for some reason.

and as far as the asbestos tile goes, i'll go find one and try it out, i'm assuming i can do it.


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: trendal]
    #2728862 -

"Science is not, and should not be, in the business of creating beliefs. For the simple reason that science is not always correct"

great point here!  not to mention the egos of some scientists get in the way of their judgement.  but most scientists have an understanding beforehand of what it is make a prediction based on a theory, and then see if it's true.  science is a tool, a great tool, but not the only tool :grin:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: trendal]
    #2728863 -

Quote:
trendal said:
There is another possibility: telekinesis and related phenomena are an emerging ability of humans. If that was the case, I would expect to see things happen as they do: telekinesis would generally be a weak ability, if present at all, in most people.



I find it unlikely that we are still evolving in such a dramatic manner. Evolution like that could not occur today because simply there are just too many people in the world. It is not like it was back in the days when we were a small people, evolving. It was a much more contained system. For that kind of evolution to occur, then people who have telekenisis would have to continuously get together and have children. My biggest doubt that telekenisis is real is that I cannot see what our minds would be acting on. Are you implying that we can just focus on say a paper pin wheel, and then manipulate it? And what exactly are we manipulating? It seems to be a rather focused beam that we can achieve. Through a glass dome, and then manipulating only the certain atoms that we wish. And what is causing the motion? If we are causing motion it cannot just be by the air currents, because then this would not work in a vacuum. We would have to be starting something from rest, and then set it in a circular motion. But I cannot see where we get the energy to do such a thing. Our minds cannot project things that can go through glass and start a pinwheel in motion. If you can actually prove it, then I would be highly impressed. So highly impressed that I would have to believe that there is no physical reality, but more of a George Berkeley reality where everything exists because it is being percieved by the mind.
Edit: I realize energy is just a concept. but to start something in motion that was not in motion before, takes some sort of physical power. I am trying to identify what this physical power is.

Edited by TheCow (05/25/04 05:08 PM)

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: TheCow]
    #2728992 -

Evolution itself is exponentially increasing. First came physical evolution of our species, which took millions of years to reach this state. Then mental evolution, which spanned over thousands of years, and is constantly accelerating. Look at the evolution of the past 100 years which saw the the emergence of technology, appliances, computers, cars, commercial jets, modern medicine, and so much more. What's to say it stops here, and whats also to say the next evolution won't be metaphysical?

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: kaiowas]
    #2729092 -

"'Higher physics can get pretty illogical sometimes'

where?"

I find it gets a little abstract around quantum physics. But given the interdependence of all variables when we talk about reality and the actual system we live in rather than conjectured circumstances where all variables can be perceived and accounted for, I'd say illogical wasn't an unfair characterization. I mean, it's even called Chaos Theory, sounds like freaky shit to me.

"'but there's a degree of randomness that exists in reality that can't be explained otherwise'

there has always been this degree of error. scientists know this."

Alright, so we agree that we're in agreement. The probability of error is what makes theories theories rather than Grand High Commandments That Require Belief.

"'and pointing your finger at the pinwheel and shooting energy through glass into it causing it to move in an anonymalous manner is necessarily every aspect of what we're talking about'

for physics, energy is a concept, it's not real, just a concept we made up in order to analyze moving particles. you can't shoot out potential or kinetic energy our your fingers."

Yeah, my bad, that's supposed to read "...in an anonymalous manner isn't necessarily every aspect of what we're talking about". For physics, matter is a concept too, in that it can be argued that matter exists simply as a facet of energy just as easily as it can be argued energy is simply a function of matter. How is the motion of the particles less 'real' than the particles themselves?

Anyways, about evolution. Greater mental faculties seem to make it easier to live in larger groups. People are living in larger and larger groups. It's not like 1 000 000 years ago some proto-gopher was like 'fuck scales, I'm gonna try having hair cause then a million years down the line my species will have evolved into porcupines, whom are served very well by their hair!' Evolution is such a gradual process being undertaken in and ongoing manner, hence it's hard to be sure of a specific creature's actual limitations, particularly when it comes to mentation and cognation and stuff that we, as creatures currently evolving in a subtle and ongoing manner, might have trouble even making ourselves aware of. You can't use your own eye to look at your own eye, but you can look at it in a mirror. Only by establishing an external frame of reference with which to compare what evolution's going on now can we grasp what's actually going on. It's what archeology's about, studying the past as an evolutionary frame of reference for organisms that exist today.


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Don't worry, I'm wrong.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Panoramix]
    #2730019 -

  there have been stories of poeple with super powers since civilization began, and i'm guessing far before that.

also, government research has shown that most everyone has the ability to do psionics.  genetics does play a factor in having the ability inherntly ON, but doesn't affect ability to progress to any large degree.

also, no on knows how TK works, i wouldn't try figuring it out on your own.

neat little tidbit: the official psionic take on OBE's is that they are hallucinatory in nature (very very generally speaking) and also they consider it no big deal.  much harder to project your consciousness while awake to a differnt PHYSICAL location and get sensory data from both places at once :smile:


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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2732224 -

bumpitty

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Revelation]
    #2735686 -

bump bump


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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2735846 -

> also, government research has shown that most everyone has the ability to do psionics

That explains why that casinos have such a hard time staying in business, eh? Gotta source for this mysterious government research that shows people have psionics?


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Seuss]
    #2736382 -

Swami is going to have a lot on his plate when he gets back!

Someone wanting to take the Swami challenge, Mr.Mushrooms leaving, George Bush elected President..


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I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Jellric]
    #2736395 -

> Swami is going to have a lot on his plate when he gets back!

So what happens first... Swami responds to this post or Shroomism disappears after Bush gets his letter?


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Seuss]
    #2737165 -

seuss, not too many poeple are willing to spend thousands and thousands of hours trying to effect random number generators in order to perfect micro PK. however those that do, do go to casinos and win. also, i wouldn't be suprised if casinos had poeple to check for that sort of thing.


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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Seuss]
    #2737275 -

That explains why that casinos have such a hard time staying in business, eh?

I have mentioned this on three different occasions. Never get a valid refutation. If one could control those (extremely massive) dice, instead of an air-catching pinwheel, my $20K would be chump-change.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Swami]
    #2737282 -

so what's the word on the challenge here S. Dogg? Are you gonna stand behind your money?

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2737322 -

also, i wouldn't be suprised if casinos had poeple to check for that sort of thing.

Huh? What type of machine can detect imaginary psi-waves?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2737334 -

"Not too many people are willing to spend thousands and thousands of hours trying to effect random number generators in order to... go to casinos and win"

I'm sure all the nerds here have had experiences of getting perfect dice rolls just at the most crucial moments (ah, Risk...). That's why the real money's in the games that involve dice or to a lesser degree cards rather than computerized slot machines or videopoker thingies. Also, with I Ching hexagrams, I've found I've been able to correctly predict results in a remarkable accurate manner, allowing me to decide on and then toss and get a specific hexagram (out of 64 possible hexagrams). I do only toss nine coins at once, so when I draw the hexagram I just do the bottom three lines off the toss and then toss again for the top three. The coins are of slightly different sizes and weights, but I haven't noticed this having any consistant effect on the tosses.


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Don't worry, I'm wrong.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Swami]
    #2737370 -

"'also, I wouldn't be surprised if casinos had people to check for that sort of thing'

Huh?  What kind of machine can detect imaginary psi-waves?"

Notice he didn't say anything about a machine.  Truekimbo's already asserted that everyone's psionic to some degree, so casinos could theoretically recruit someone with a psionic predisposition for detecting people who can uses their minds to influence supposedly random events.  Didn't you wonder what was going on at that part of Run Lola Run where she's in the casino and all the security people start getting antsy and trying to hustle her out, but not before she walks off with 100 000 marks.  Clearly, this demonstrates that they had psionic-detection training or innate capabilities or however that preportedly works.  :naughty: :smirk:


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Don't worry, I'm wrong.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2737400 -

Here is the deal TK (Tele Kinesis?), before you come out, I will need a video for pre-screening purposes as I will have to get a local magician (maybe my buddy, Lance Burton), a notary public, my lawyer and another shroomery member (witness) of my choice, who would probably be evolving. He lives a few hundred miles away so this may take some coordinating.

Now you may come out anytime to demonstrate, but I need all the pieces in place before I part with the cashola.

Here is what I require on the video: I want to see you put a (non-air-catching) object inside of an upside-down jar with a lid on it. The lid must then be securely sealed with thick masking tape. (You can get a 1 gallon sun-tea jar for about $3.00) This jar must be placed on top of another upside-down clear drinking glass so that I can see it is at least 3-4 inches off of any surface. This glass must be on top of an iron skillet or stainless steel pan to protect against magnetism. A clock with seconds needs to be in the picture or imprinted on the video. Absolutely no edits shall be allowed. The object must be totally at rest, then rotated one way, come to a complete stop; then rotated the other way. Hands may be held near the jar, but no motion is allowed. Initally a wide-angle field should be shown with as little background clutter as possible, followed by some close-ups. After completion, the object shall be removed, the jar filled with water and slowly rotated before the camera for a minute or two to show that no holes have been drilled in the jar.

Let's see if you are ready to get serious.  :thumbup:


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Swami]
    #2737428 -

what would your definition of a non-air catching object be?

by the way, this is completely outside my skill range. however, i can make a video beforehand of what i can do, click over to the first page of this post and see what i can do to ammend it any.


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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2737450 -

what would your definition of a non-air catching object be?
Do I really need to answer that?  :rolleyes:

by the way, this is completely outside my skill range.
Which part, filling the jar with water?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Swami]
    #2737494 -

Do you really know Lance Burton? I would also have her put a compass next to the glass bowl, nothing major, but I think it would provide a tad greater deal of accuracy.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Swami]
    #2737510 -

A non-air catching object, eh? So something that isn't affected by air? That'd be something that isn't dinstinct from the affecting air. So, air. Every object 'catches' air to some degree. I think not having any strong air currents involved would be the way to solve that, and that's what the glass jar is for. If he can spontaeniously generate kinetic movement through air in a body of air seperated by a physical barrier (glass), I'd say that constitutes TK. You're making the experiment more complicated than it needs to be in order to be conclusive. Maybe 20 000$ conclusive is different than sane, reasonable conclusive, though...


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Don't worry, I'm wrong.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Panoramix]
    #2737515 -

a spinning pin wheel! stop the presses


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We're the lowest of the low, the scum of the fucking earth!

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: TheCow]
    #2737531 -

I would also have her put a compass next to the glass bowl, nothing major, but I think it would provide a tad greater deal of accuracy.
Good suggestion - thanks! Add that to the list TK.

Do you really know Lance Burton?
I have met him, but we are not buds. However if TK could seemingly demonstrate such an ability on preliminary tests, I would gladly pay the man $500 for an hour of his time before shelling out $20K.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Panoramix]
    #2737539 -

A non-air catching object, eh? So something that isn't affected by air? That'd be something that isn't dinstinct from the affecting air. So, air. Every object 'catches' air to some degree.
*cough* True enough, but are you saying that psi "needs" an object SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to respond to minor air currents?

You're making the experiment more complicated than it needs to be in order to be conclusive.
He may come and demonstrate any time, but to collect, all known variables must be controlled. I have asked for nothing unreasonable nor undoable nor expensive nor requiring exotic equipment, now have I?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #2737545 -

swami, i don't mean to be dumb, but i need to know exactly what type of objects you'd accept so that i can begin practicing with those types of objects.

also, keep in mind that the only feat of telekinesis i can perform consistently is as stated, i'd much prefer you figure out something that i can videotape involving what i know i can do, then requiring me to delay this several days/weeks/months learning to do something new.

also, i don't really understand why you need a videotape beforehand. i mean i guess if you have to pay your lawyer or witness/whatever to come watch me then it makes sense you'd want to proof it for slight of hand trickery beforehand.

legally speaking how does this work? for instance if i do the experiment i outlined and you decide its some other factor after the fact (not pre-discussed) do i get to redo the experiment with new guidelines? do i have to pay taxes? is the notary there just to have everything filled out immediately?
no where on any of the legal documents should it say anything about telekinesis, a challenge, paranormal abilities, anything like that.


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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2737555 -

swami, the only objects i've worked with are spinning things designed to move very easily with slight force. is that hunkey dorey? as part of the experiment we can account for air currents vs. the amount the object moves.


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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2737574 -

Get a cork and stick in a needle vertically. Place a tooth pick with a small hole (so as to spin freely) horizontally centered on the needle and do it under glass. Simple enough.

I am most likely done with this thread as I have said my piece clearly. Now I need preliminary evidence else I will not waste my time with someone cupping their hands and creating a vortex around a pinwheel.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Swami]
    #2737586 -

i will attempt to do what you suggested.

however, i have said i can spin multiple pinwheels at once without the use of my hands. not much of an air vortex happening there.


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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Swami]
    #2737624 -

"...are you saying that psi NEEDS an object SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to respond to minor air currents?" truekimbo seems to think that they're the only objects he can do, so I'd say yes, at least in this instance. Maybe you can provide the pinwheel for the actual challenge to ensure there's no tampering. Actually, how about having the pinwheel selected in as random manner as possible by a mutually agreed-upon arbitrary organization? And have the organization's activities monitered and overseen by a handful of justices of the supreme court or whatever you've got handy.


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Don't worry, I'm wrong.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Panoramix]
    #2737635 -

i wouldn't trust the supreme court to be free from secret shadow government psionic influence.

:P this is just silly, leave me in peace. its going to be bad enough i'm going to spend a hundred hours in the next month staring at a toothpick.


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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2737702 -

truekimbo2 said:
its bad enough i'm going to spend a hundred hours in the next month staring at a toothpick.


hahaha. props man, i like your attitude. i hope you get it.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Swami]
    #2737765 -

Swami what a load of BS! Why would he have to spin the wheel in water, if he can do it in an (provable) air tight container... quit changing the rules. air tight container= proven ESP... I can picture this now: TK arives at swamis house, does the airtight pinwheel, and even manages to spin it underwater, but then swami pulls the " ok I need to see you do it with no gravity before I give u the cash, so the next time NASA goes to the moon see if u can hitch a ride, now, GET OUT MY HOUSE FOOL"

There are other ways to prove no air flow BESIDES water. i am sure u can think of some.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2738110 -

Quote:
2Experimental said:
Swami what a load of BS! Why would he have to spin the wheel in water, if he can do it in an (provable) air tight container... quit changing the rules. air tight container= proven ESP... I can picture this now: TK arives at swamis house, does the airtight pinwheel, and even manages to spin it underwater, but then swami pulls the " ok I need to see you do it with no gravity before I give u the cash, so the next time NASA goes to the moon see if u can hitch a ride, now, GET OUT MY HOUSE FOOL"

There are other ways to prove no air flow BESIDES water. i am sure u can think of some.



You didn't read Swami's post correctly. The water is to indicate that the glass is air tight... at no point did Swami suggest a submerged performance.

"After completion, the object shall be removed, the jar filled with water and slowly rotated before the camera for a minute or two to show that no holes have been drilled in the jar."


(edited for additional commentary)

>air tight container= proven ESP
-If this was your only standard to prove ESP then I could fashion a pinwheel with blades that, when one side painted black and the other side painted white, would spin around quite well when exposed to sunlight and thereby prove ESP. It is fortunate for you to have taken no financial risk; you would have been quite had. \

However, Swam puts twenty thousand dollars on the line and all you can do is stand on the sidelines complaining when he takes measures to prevent against such false positives.

Edited by TheShroomHermit (05/27/04 06:48 PM)

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2738284 -

I think that with 20 000$ on the line, Swami's more in need of people telling him about erroneous or unnecessary 'measures to prevent against false positives' than people to suggest them. The experiment is quite simple and if done properly (like in the manner truekimbo originally suggested, which was quite thorough in its accounting for exterior influences that'd possible create unwanted variables). A pinwheel isn't exactly the best indicator, though. Maybe one of those plastic lawnorniment-y flower dealies, seems like they only really spin when there's something to actually push them. Though in theory a pinwheel lined up straight that isn't spinning when a belljar is lowered over it should remain inert until it's disturbed by something, most likely viberations up the base of whatever it's attached to. Seems like sticking it in the ground would be the best way to avoid that. Having it suspended upside down, as was suggested earlier, runs the risk of having the string's swinging end up causing the pinwheel to spin.


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Don't worry, I'm wrong.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Panoramix]
    #2738476 -

to whom ever it concerns,
i dont think swami has made any extreme or over-the-top requests.
i dont think he is trying to pull a fast one or trick anyone.
i think this will be a great experiement, and im kind of excited.
we should try to think of ways we can make this experiment better.

TrueKimbo2, good-luck, it will be something great if you can reproduce your results.

swami, good-luck, so far i think science and statistics are on your side, so i guess you wont need luck.


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2739455 -

truekimbo- Honestly, I'd really like to see you go through with this. I don't think you fully realize how impossibly amazing it would be for you to actually be successful with such a simple test. You'd be rich like no man.

I will personally come and shoot a documentary about you - FREE OF CHARGE (and you'll get half of whatever net profits I'd make). Then I'd make sure to send a copy to every major news outlet in the country (and some in other countries). An entire new industry will no doubt spring up surrounding you. Every superpower in the world would toss ridiculous amounts of money at you to get you to develop your telekinesis.

Of course, all you'd have to do is videotape your feat and be able to factor out any false positives.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2739822 -

sclorch, i'd really prefer you stop with those kinds of posts.

either i can't do it, in which case none of that stuff would happen
or i can do it, and i know what i'm talking about when it comes to the psionic influence in the world already.

either way, those types of posts really really bother me, and i'd wish you'd stop. if you want i'll also stop making a type of facetious post of your choice.


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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2739895 -

You think I was being sarcastic? Not at all.

I own and run a small production company. I'm dead serious. If you can do this, I will guarantee you an audience. And I'll let you have alot of input on the editing (I don't want you to exploit yourself).

If you want to talk more, send me a PM. I can't be any more serious.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2739932 -

But this will be quite different than filming gay porn...  :crazy2:


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Swami]
    #2740026 -

Swami, what have I told you about revealing my gay porn affiliations in public?!

Geez... you think you know somebody and....


:lol:


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2740045 -

Sclorch, sclorch, sclorch! I thought YOU of all people would avoid this "trap". I did not mention your activitives, merely stated that a documentary is different than an adult film - sheeesh!  :rolleyes:


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2740959 -

Swami, maybe you could "offically" write up the rules for anyone to prove they can do it before you have to commit to meeting them and getting all these people together. This way you can't change the rules, but more importantly, the people challenging can't claim you're bending the rules. :wink: From then on, people will have the details and know what they have to do before accepting your challenge.


Most importantly, people who practice TK won't spend so much time on Pinwheels and focus on something more arbitrary.

(Just a note, I'm pretty neutral on the whole thing. What I WOULD like to see, is someone actually take the challenge. That would be very interesting to see the results of, and would put a cork on the debate.... so to speak. Actions DO speak louder than words)


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The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.


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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Twirling]
    #2741861 -

If I lived driving distance from you swami, I would drive over and show you this for free. While money is always nice, it only adds to the skepticism that the person may be pulling a fast one for personal gain. I also do not need any sort of fame or bullshit. The only reason I would spend my time to show you this is because you seem like a pretty smart person, and this ability can completely change one's perspective on reality, I think for the better. Maybe in the near future if I plan on being around Las Vegas I'll set something up to demonstrate. While I doubt I'll be able to adhere to all of your 'rules', I'll try my best to. Also without the inluence of a cash prize, maybe you'll have a little more belief in it's existence. Good day :smile:

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: deff]
    #2742427 -

Playin advocate here but if I had TK powers and was sure of myself, I'd make the bet myself -- $20k to anyone who can DISprove what I'm doing. Obviously they can come up with BS and try and claim the prize, but if I could really do what I was saying, I could just demonstrate that no, I wasn't doing whatever they thought I was at all.
You'd catch a lot more money that way.

I'll keep it brief and not launch into a diatribe about the whole metaphysical/spiritual world belief itself this time.. just wanted to throw that out. if i do post about this again it'll be a novel, to forewarn everyone..

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Swami]
    #2748662 -

o0o0o0o0o0o...  the gloves are off!

I love it when you two start up with each other like this :laugh:


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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Swami]
    #2748669 -

o0o0o0o0o0o0o.. the gloves are off!  I love it when you two start at each other like this..  I've been coming here for over two years and nothing gets me more excited than a Sclorch VS Swami thread..  seriously..

ARE YOU GONNA TAKE THAT SCLORCH?! Come on!  Get your boi's to cum on down and pound some ass! :wink:

I'm sorry.  You're right.  Uncalled for..


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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: nubious]
    #2749982 -

I figured he got me good...  so I'd let him have the final word.  hehehe

So... two men engaging in a battle of wits and duking it out in the key of gay minor gets you excited?
Fair enough.
:penis:


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Sclorch]
    #3150119 -

Bump?


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: 2Experimental]
    #7795610 -

Quote:
Swami what a load of BS! Why would he have to spin the wheel in water,


Once again a TB having difficulty reading what was written and thinking logically.

What a surprise! :birthday:


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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? *DELETED* [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7797815 -

Post deleted by LunarEclipse

Reason for deletion: doubleyawn



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Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #7797828 -

Even more surprising is your surprise at Swami's surprise. :eek:

Ask truekimbo2 why this thread came back to life.


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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7799973 -

Quote:
for the record, the post the swami linked to had nothing to do with diploid. as you can see in both the links, i never promised diploid a video.

i asked swami if i could come take his challenge because a random shroomerite offered me a bus ticket to go there. that was a time conditional offer. the offer expired, and then i had no motivation to continue towards making the video.

since swami and i never formalized a timetable, i didn't think i was re-neging on commitments, and again, i didn't promise diploid anything.



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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? *DELETED* [Re: truekimbo2]
    #7800113 -

Post deleted by soulcircus

Reason for deletion: .


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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: soulcircus]
    #7800114 -

soulcircus said:
will you not just post a video up here of what you can do anyway?



--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: soulcircus]
    #7800132 -

Isn't the answer to your question suitable for Captain Obvious?



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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7800139 -

OK, let's recap the top 5 reasons out of the 1536 believer's reasons why he will not post such a video:

1. He doesn't have the time. (No spare 20 minutes in the last 4 years, despite thousands of posts).

2. The 'Government' (whoever the fuck THAT is) will see his superpowers and haul him away to a secret encampment.

3. Saying you will do something is not a committment.

4. Evil skeptics will use their highly-developed S-Rays to block his fledgling P-Rays.

5. A pinwheel will only spin with air currents and not in a sealed container - er, I mean glass is known to block P-Rays.


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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18223410 -

*super bump*


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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18225036 -

:awecid:

I'm psychic, give me my 20k now.

Just take my word for it. The gods love me; your karma will pay it back like 50-fold.


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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: NetDiver]
    #20741404 -

Final re-bump.

Yes, I am just a close minded skeptic - that is always right! :cookiemonster:


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