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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2726678 -

I can go without sleep for a really long time (my max. is 11 days) and be completely fine. Is that paranormal enough for $20,000 or a million?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: psyka]
    #2726707 -

you can stay awake for 11 days without any drugs?


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: CleverName]
    #2726719 -

Yep...it sucks :smile:

Nothing works for me. I just got these melatonin pills (I've tried melatonin before with the same results) that dissolve in your mouth 3 days ago. The first day I took two and they worked! The 2nd day I took 2 and I didnt get drowsy or anything. Last night I took 3 and yep...I'm still awake. I've also tried those tylenol pills that help you sleep and a lot of other things, all to no avail.

When I try to goto sleep, I end up just lying there meditating. I understand I am conscious because I am aware of the moment, but time passes by somewhat quick. Sometimes I get really light-headed it feels like there is a vortex of chaos in my head, and I have to promptly close my eyes and meditate otherwise I get confused and lose touch of things for awhile.

And yes, 11 days is my maximum number of days spent staying awake without drugs with the exception of food, cafeine and pot. I really wish it would go away though :smile: I miss dreaming. Who knows? Maybe I'm not supposed to sleep.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

Edited by psyka (05/25/04 07:33 AM)

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: psyka]
    #2726723 -

do you hallucinate at all?

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2726730 -

I used to see animals or things jump around at the corner of my eye, I'd go to look and nothing would be there. I also used to act very odd, because I didnt give a shit about anything due to extreme exhaustion. Nowadays, I'm very used to it and it doesnt bother me. Except the not dreaming anymore thing.

I do get some sleep, however the hours are very limited :frown: Maybe one out of three or four days I'll get 2-4 hours sleep.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: psyka]
    #2726944 -

Swami is staying omniously quiet. I'm expecting him to bust out a bunch of semantic spaghetti-logic intended to show your manner of setting up the experiment couldn't be conclusive if the topic doesn't get buried too soon. I doubt he'll offer a different procedure, though. Not that I'd blame him, for 20,000$ you wouldn't be able to prove to me that gravity is what makes apples fall down. If you ask me, apples fall down because they really want to get in the soil and have their seeds germinate. They fall down only because they're trying to. My point is that at a very fundmental level reality is self-defined.

Yeah, I've found that if you stay up for 40 hours or so, (generally I start to hallucinate around 45-70 hours and am overwhelmed by the desire for actual sleep after 82 hours) you can get away with just meditating and slipping into a trance that's really quite restful without actually losing conciousness. The REAL ticket is getting a little sleep-deprived and then meditating and passing out in such a manner that you manage to slip into a lucid dream. Pot helps for this, I've found. I've found that if I try to realize I'm alseep when I'm not all sleep-deprivation-passed-out the dream is too fragile and I end up waking up. I mean, even with the ideal circumstances like tasty bromomescaline (2C-B) nosecandy, it's still not necessarily 100% for sure that I can manipulate all aspects of the dream exactly as I'd like to. I've found it to be a lot like acid except that I'm technically not actually concious...


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Don't worry, I'm wrong.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Panoramix]
    #2727370 -

Actually, I think he may be out of town w/o a computer. I sent him an email yesterday or the day before and he hasn't replied. I'm sure he'll get to this if we can keep it on the first page.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2727439 -

I'll do my part, I've always wanted someone to give the whole Swami's Challenge thing a good going-over. I think possibly the main reason I think I'd be interesting is that should it actually get arranged I'm think Swami is quite bright enough to talk his way out of anything that isn't a pretty genuine 'paranormal' psychic event. I dunno though, something about being 20,000$ sure of one's beliefs strikes me as unhealthy. I can only hope he's proven wrong so that he can learn and continue to grow and change. Certitude leads to ossification, establishment leads to reactionism. If one spends all one's time defending a set of views (i.e. the mental cannot directly influence the physical), you end up missing out on not just the opposing view, but also on dialectic aspects of your own views.


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Don't worry, I'm wrong.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Panoramix]
    #2727631 -

"Yeah, I've found that if you stay up for 40 hours or so, (generally I start to hallucinate around 45-70 hours and am overwhelmed by the desire for actual sleep after 82 hours).."

I personally dont ever hallucinate from lack of sleep however after somewhere around 72 I tend to fall into trance states.I have had some very profound spiritual experiences from sleep deprivation.Most of the time gradually my sense of body fades and I find myself often communicating with beings in another realm.Usually it's some sort of waiting room type setting and I'm not allowed past this point and Im not even allowed to peek beyond this room.I do however learn alot from it.I spend what feels like hours or more in this place,however when I snap out of the trance state only a minute has gone by sometimes 2 minutes.It's strange.


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"There is no fire like lust, no grip like hate, no net like delusions, no river like craving."


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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: HypnoToad]
    #2727820 -

Sounds pretty cool. My hallucinations from just sleep depri are pretty low-key, more like obvious distortions and misinterpretations of the visual and auditory field. Yeah, what I find interesting is getting that faded sense of body and then going and talking with other people, because I find that as my sense of body fades, my ability to focus and empathize with other individuals increases. It's a cheaper way that getting drunk to increase one's sociability and eloquence. Speech becomes less like talking and more like writing, just a straight-out expression of ideas.


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Don't worry, I'm wrong.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Panoramix]
    #2728076 -

Panoramix said:
I dunno though, something about being 20,000$ sure of one's beliefs strikes me as unhealthy. I can only hope he's proven wrong so that he can learn and continue to grow and change. Certitude leads to ossification, establishment leads to reactionism. If one spends all one's time defending a set of views (i.e. the mental cannot directly influence the physical), you end up missing out on not just the opposing view, but also on dialectic aspects of your own views.


I think Swami is fairly certain that the laws of physics still do apply.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: TheCow]
    #2728148 -

Telekinesis does not go against the laws of physics, but rather is just a part of undeveloped laws. Just because 'science' hasn't made a breakthrough with it yet does not mean it's not factual. For all we know, humans could have the ability to change their elctrical currents sunconsciously, to affect nearby atoms, which would still apply by the laws of physics.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: TheCow]
    #2728178 -

There are no physical "laws"...only theories which seem to apply to reality. This is evidenced by the rather continuous overthrow of scientific theories once known as "law".

Newton came up with a "law" for gravity. Some people still call it his "law of gravity". Yet is was shown, almost a hundred years ago now, to be wrong. A close aproximation...but not the whole story.

I have championed the cause of science my entire life, yet it would be foolish of me to cast away my mind and actually believe in anything science says. Science is not, and should not be, in the business of creating beliefs. For the simple reason that science is not always correct. :wink:

What I'm getting at is: what we know to be "laws" of nature today...tomorrow people will laugh at and wonder how we could have believed such silly ideas. :smirk:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: trendal]
    #2728214 -

Yeah, I agree with trendal. A hundred years ago, people would have been incredibly skeptical of the advances our society has made. A good example is with satellites in space, sending visual information to a reciever to watch changing digital pictures that we percieve as two dimensional motion. Basically, do not let science limit your beliefs, but rather allow your beliefs to expand on science. :smile:

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: deff]
    #2728465 -

My main problem with believing in something such as this, is the fact that it is entirely different to humans making progress in say satellites. Humans have been using their bodies for many a year, and I think during all that time someone would have noticed that we can in fact use telekenisis. As far as the laws of physics are concerned I was more talking about conservation of energy. I do not see how this could fall into conserving energy. Are we supposed to be transfering energy from our hand to under a glass bowl, and then it moves a piece of paper? Maybe I do not fully understand something about this, but it seems highly illogical.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: TheCow]
    #2728792 -

There is another possibility: telekinesis and related phenomena are an emerging ability of humans. If that was the case, I would expect to see things happen as they do: telekinesis would generally be a weak ability, if present at all, in most people.

Now, as for "believing" in these things...well I think that all "beliefs" are silly things to hold onto. Whether it's a belief in science or a belief in psychic/tk/ect abilities...it's a very silly thing to hold onto. Instead, use what you can learn and prove to yourself (beyond a reasonable doubt) to make theories about what is possible. I could probably come up with at least a few theories, based in modern science, which would support the existence of tk and/or psychic ability.

As I have not witnessed a demonstration of either ability...I can not make any real claims as to their truth/falsity.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: TheCow]
    #2728799 -

"...but it seems highly illogical." Thank you for that, Mr. Spock.

Higher physics can get pretty illogical sometimes, but there's a degree of randomness that exists in reality that can't be explained otherwise. Theoretically there's a defined and measurable pattern to the way anything does anything, and pointing your finger at the pinwheel and shooting energy through glass into it causing it to move in an anonymalous manner is necessarily every aspect of what we're talking about, here.


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Don't worry, I'm wrong.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: TheCow]
    #2728806 -

Well think of this. You are made completely out of energy, manifested into the physical via atoms. Trillions and trillions of electrons, protons, and neutrons, also make up the air around you, as well as the object in question (ie- a pinwheel). Somehow our consciousness has the ability to manipulate the energy within our own body. The energy all around you is the same however. Whether physical energy, like atoms, or another form (ie- light), if it is broken down far enough, it's assumed to be made of all the same 'particles' (String theory). This means that the entire physical existence is just one changing and morphing energy comprised of almost infinite amount of identical particles. It's true that energy, or 'matter', cannot be created or destroyed (in reference to your mention of the conservation of energy). However, what force manipulates these particles into the infinitely vast and evolving energy that it is? My opinion is consciousness. Not just human consciousness, but all consciousness in the universe. Plants, animals (humans included), and on a larger scale, higher beings comprised of atoms that to us are solar systems. However, each only holds such a small fragment of the true single unified consciousness. For example, a plant has the ability to grow using photosynthesis, thereby affecting the rest of the universe (re: Chaos Theory). While this may not have as large of an impact on the universe as say, a person nuking the earth into asteroids, the result is the same - change. So what's to say our limited shred of consciousness cannot be extended beyond our physical bodies and affect equally created objects comprised of the same energy? I know it's real, I've done it. I don't however know *why* it works, just like I don't know *why* I exist.

The above should not be treated as factual, but rather just my guess at how this may work. I'm probably way off, but I do know for fact that telekinesis does work.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: TheCow]
    #2728808 -

"Are we supposed to be transfering energy from our hand to under a glass bowl, and then it moves a piece of paper? "

|Energy in the physics sense isn't real...it's a concept so we can analyze motion. I can't go out and get a machine that can measure your "potential energy" nor kinetic. energy is conserved because we have defined it that way, it's not real, it's a concept in our heads.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: swami, may i come take your challenge? [Re: Panoramix]
    #2728843 -

"Higher physics can get pretty illogical sometimes"

where?

"but there's a degree of randomness that exists in reality that can't be explained otherwise"

there has always been this degree of error. scientists know this.

"and pointing your finger at the pinwheel and shooting energy through glass into it causing it to move in an anonymalous manner is necessarily every aspect of what we're talking about"

for physics, energy is a concept, it's not real, just a concept we made up in order to analyze moving particles. you can't shoot out potential or kinetic energy our your fingers.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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