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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: pong]
    #13028694 -

i like the idea about dissociating from the cycle - i think that's what it involves, a level of transcendence out of this rebirth habit

as for it being impossible, buddhism would disagree, it's the whole point of buddhism. buddha taught that one could perfect their mind so they no longer take uncontrolled rebirth.

what's important to remember though is that this cycle of rebirth isn't inherently existent - it isn't a solid entity in the way we commonly think of things. instead it's very dreamlike, and based on interconnected mental phenomena. so it isn't a process of a part of you leaving a machine of rebirth into a blissful outside state, but rather a process of changing your mind so it stops hallucinating samsara (rebirth, conditioned existence) altogether. nirvana and samsara are two ways of looking with the same mind, they're two sides of the same thing - which is why waking up out of conditioned existence is possible.


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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: deff]
    #13029089 -

This supports and interesting thought/feeling I've always had. With a lack of explaining a seemingly impossible process, I'll just say that hypothetically there exists a given process of simply voiding the conciousness from a mind/body.
I've always felt if this were a possibility, then the conciousness would simply follow the path of least resistance until it found another life to identify with. Similar to rocks tumbling down a cliff side. At one point, the rocks were the cliff. In the process of falling, they were no longer part of the cliff. Eventually one by one, they will find a resting place no matter how instable or secure. In the end, they will again be part of the cliff,.. Maybe the rubble at the bottom, or the jagged landslide covering a path or roadway.

But the next feeling this invokes, is:
If conciousness exists at some point within a body that has awareness of its' conciousness, there's no turning back. The closest to nothingness that one can comprehend is merely awareness without judgement. A timeless state of being where there is no past nor future, only the present moment. Being there's an inability to comprehend the past or present, this awareness is truly timeless. Perhaps not eternal, but exists within a moment outside of the frame of reference of time.

This feeling can be pondered I believe, if only for a fraction of a second. But in that tiny moment, I believe we can get a glimpse of what it is like to exist in a state in which we do not feel as if the candle of our lives is burning at both ends.

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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: deff]
    #13029228 -

is the rebirth really a habit? or is it a stage?  i think its all happening NOW at all times so "rebirth" is not really rebirth because its just multiple births and deaths that happen to take place along what we like to call time.

the evolution into the nirvana being not after but simultaneously with the experiences that allow one to reach such a state if in fact it exists.  Also that such evolution is inevitable.  Avoidable from one point of awareness (you or i) and always forward moving as a whole.


these ideas are LSD ideas.  why the fuck do the lsd ideas i have always match up with other stories people are telling.

we are all one mind in the end/beginning/always.  maybe there is truth to be had in this thinking,

but on the flip side the best alternative to dying and that being the end of it is to dream up the thought that you are infinite and timeless.  Death is the end.  of me or you, so why should we worry about what happens next?

I am going to have to say that we are neither definite or infinite.  i believe the thoughts telling me otherwise are rationalizations of a much more complex truth that i am not educated enough to understand.

therefore i must conclude we are not infinite beings, unless you have managed to stop thinking like a finite one, which i think is impossible while you are alive.  but i do reckon that you can come damned close.


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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: pong]
    #13029453 -

good posts :thumbup:


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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: circastes]
    #13030792 -

circastes said:
Consciousness is what you are, it has nothing to do with the physical body.


:thumbup:

.

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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #13031059 -

c0sm0nautt said:
deff said:
yes, rebirth is not a blessing - it's quite unfortunate



I don't really agree with that outlook. How I see it is being human is one of an infinite amount of experiences the Universe chooses to experience itself. I believe we have a Soul, Higher Self - whatever label you want to give it - which consciously chose to incarnate into a specific time, to have a certain family, to meet certain people, to come across "by chance" certain ideas. All of this is for the sheer experience - for the soul to learn and grow, to add the I-personality to itSelf. Time is only relevant from our perspective, this dream we call life. There is no where "to go", as the Buddhists maintain (if I'm not misinterpreting the view). What you do in this life won't give you a better future incarnation. You are living all of your incarnations simultaneously, in the one eternal moment. You can connect to and learn from or teach these other "yous" as well, and even tap in your own soul, the orchestrator, through daily synchronicity, dreams, etc. Ultimately, I think the goal of the soul is the realize itself here on Earth. So for me it is not about "me" attaining Enlightenment, but rather allowing the Self to shine through me here on Earth.

So to answer the OP, Yes I believe we are infinite and timeless being. Lighten up!


Though ultimately our incarnations are all happening now, I feel like there still might be some sort of chronology that extends from life to life.  Like, you can say there is a next incarnation and a previous one. I have an image in my head of all your incarnations being on a wheel and your soul/higher self being in the center of the wheel, and it extends into your different lives in a certain order, until eventually one of those lives realizes the center. :mushroom2:


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drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: g00ru]
    #13031111 -

guruu said:
Though ultimately our incarnations are all happening now, I feel like there still might be some sort of chronology that extends from life to life.  Like, you can say there is a next incarnation and a previous one. I have an image in my head of all your incarnations being on a wheel and your soul/higher self being in the center of the wheel, and it extends into your different lives in a certain order, until eventually one of those lives realizes the center. :mushroom2:



this makes a lot of sense to me. All incarnations are occurring simultaneously for our true center which exists in timelessness.

however, our false--ego center which exists in linear time inhabits I would say a string of incarnations that follows a chain of "closed perception" to "entirely unfolded enlightened perception"

it wouldn't make much sense for your false center to be inhabiting an elephant in one lifetime, a monk the next, and then just a "ordinary human" after that.

i think your incarnations are based on what degree you have unfolded to the truth.


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If you're frightened of dying and  you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.

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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: JackofSpades]
    #13031250 -

all things are governed by cause and effect, so the "choice" of your next life is the next frame of mind following the last frame of this one (with the accumulated karmic potentials carrying over and deciding specific rebirth)

this is why in buddhism the last state of gross mind a person is in when they die is very very important. if one is in a peaceful state of mind, a fortunate rebirth is possible, whereas if one is in a very turbulent, angry, scared, etc. mind then a lower rebirth is possible. accumulated karma also plays a large role, and not just from this life, but from many many lifetimes in the past too, as karma can take hundreds of lives for the right causes and conditions to come together for it to ripen. this is why individuals are so apparently unique, because they are unique karmic profiles of many lifetimes and imprints.

the view that we "choose" our incarnation for the sake of experience brings up the issue of is this choice free will or pre-destined? if it's pre-destined then it's still the result of previous lives, as they shaped our unique desire for the next rebirth. in buddhism though, rebirth is uncontrollable until one is an advanced bodhisattva, who can navigate bardo and choose their rebirth. at this point, rebirth would be optional but they choose it out of compassion and to further their progress to buddhahood.


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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: deff]
    #13031297 -

deff said:
all things are governed by cause and effect, so the "choice" of your next life is the next frame of mind following the last frame of this one (with the accumulated karmic potentials carrying over and deciding specific rebirth)

this is why in buddhism the last state of gross mind a person is in when they die is very very important. if one is in a peaceful state of mind, a fortunate rebirth is possible, whereas if one is in a very turbulent, angry, scared, etc. mind then a lower rebirth is possible



this makes sense. however, i would guess that if someone died in bad circumstances but had accumulated good karma the suffering experienced in rebirth/future life would be rather limited, no?


for example someone like Gandhi who was murdered probably wasn't reborn into a life of misery and suffering although he may have briefly experienced difficulty early on due to his state of mind upon death?


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If you're frightened of dying and  you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.

Edited by JackofSpades (08/10/10 11:46 AM)

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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: JackofSpades]
    #13032005 -

yes that makes sense

most people though, even people who are very virtuous in this current life, have a mix of positive and negative karmic imprints from previous lives - which is why bad things happen to apparently good people. having good karma, a similar event may occur to you as to someone with bad karma, but you will suffer less from it. this is why purification practices are so important, even for people who have lived very virtuous lives...

i think gandhi would be fine. i heard that as he fell dying he joined his palms together to pay respect to his murderer. i think someone with much accumulated virtue will have a peaceful mind at death, as it isn't a random event - it too is guided by karma.

also - the nicest thing you can do for someone is to provide them with a peaceful mind during their death. this is very very important.


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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: Fraggin]
    #21551346 -

Yes, and, this was a really nice thread to read.  I especially enjoyed these responses (and of course deff's and others). .

'If you want to experience your true nature, attempt to induce an OBE. No more hoping for some saving grace after that - you're It. There is no end to you or your mind. Consciousness is what you are, it has nothing to do with the physical body.' - Circastes

'when i think of this stuff i know that it is all happening all at once.' - Pong

'You are living all of your incarnations simultaneously, in the one eternal moment. You can connect to and learn from or teach these other "yous" as well, and even tap in your own soul, the orchestrator, through daily synchronicity, dreams, etc. Ultimately, I think the goal of the soul is the realize itself here on Earth. So for me it is not about "me" attaining Enlightenment, but rather allowing the Self to shine through me here on Earth.' - c0sm0nautt

I agree very much with Pong's view. . I keep experiencing this many different times, it shines through. . Sometimes it occurs - it accounts for all coincidences, I believe. . in the highest view, we get to see an infinite, dancing universe, all afecting all other forms equally. . and then this comes back many times later; as a sort of reminder of what we've seen. . unimaginable coincidences. . this sort of thing - just reflections and gilmpses of what we saw.

Then, just as I was typing that. . . I felt something new that I haven't ever felt. . there are a few wounds on my feet, because I like to keep strong, and go in nature and experience everything. . just now, for the first time in my life, I felt it shine. . felt them shine. . felt it through them. . just for a moment, but momentary flashes are what light us up. . . and right after, I remembered Rumi's statement, 'the wound is where the Light enters you.'

I won't ramble but infinite health is possible, and part of it is simply knowing that you may never get sick; and also, with this, you go out and experience everything, and maintain that pure, and boundless bliss, peace, and truth that is the natural self. . . and keep shining on, forever.

Infinite healing, peace, truth, strength and light to all.


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Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland          Julia Delaney, Bothy Band                                        Rasta Girl, Sister Carol                    Genesis, Jorma K
I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing                                                                                                                    Do Your Thing, Moondog                     
large  . . music garden . .  very
all peace                    them hi
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Re: Are we infinite and timeless beings? [Re: Fraggin]
    #21552041 -

BEING may be infinite and eternal, but 'we' are eternal only insofar as we realize that we participate in Being - the ONE Being. I like to use the metaphor of waves on an ocean. Each wave emerges from, runs its course, and dissipates back into the ocean. Likewise, our individuality arises from Being, runs its course through life, and dissipates, the physical elements returning to elemental levels, psychic constituents possibly also being recycled, some finding their way into the psyche of a child who mysteriously 'remembers' our experiences. We need to experience "Oceanic Consciousness," Being Itself, not 'my' being. Most of us identify with being individual 'waves' and neglect Cosmic Consciousness which more accurately defines what we really are. To the extent that we realize our cosmic identity, fear of death diminishes, and concern for our aging temporal life diminishes as well. Anything that comes into existence, that 'becomes,' will go out of existence. Being in Buddhism is Compassion and Spaciousness, not separate qualities, but form and formlessness.

Aside from Buddhist thought, in Christianity, it is only our love that continues to exist, but love as a state of being, not interpersonal love. If "God is love" (1 John 4:8), and God is the only eternal verity, then it is only insofar as we experience our true nature as love that Eternal Life is true. Similarly in Buddhism with Emptiness, or Spaciousness. THAT is our Essential Nature, not any discrete, separate ego or soul. This was the contention not only of Buddha (Anatman/Anatta doctrine), but the contention of Christian mystics like Meister Eckhart, who I believe was speaking to our Transcendental Ego, meaning that ultimately, “The eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me; my eye and God's eye are one eye, one seeing, one knowing, one love.” For statements like this, Eckhart was condemned to be burned at the stake at Cologne Cathedral. Mercifully, he died before that could happen. But mainstream Christianity is anything BUT mystical and cosmic. I'll throw in with the more radical Christian mystics. Their position is often pretty much like mainstream Buddhism.

http://books.google.com/booksid=Ske6kzQlmKcC&pg=PA60&lpg=PA60&dq=love+as+a+state+of+being%2C+the+only+dance+there+is&source=bl&ots=sPflz2EzVh&sig=p6XPeimyMkpRfhNItYpPcZzF_TY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JPjTU-CfF4OYyATh8YKAAQ&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=love%20as%20a%20state%20of%20being%2C%20the%20only%20dance%20there%20is&f=false


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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