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Is there actually proof of reincarnation?

I would like to answer this with another question: Is there actually any proof that reincarnation doesn?t exist? This question poses a greater problem for the skeptic than the believer. Proof is intangible. When you research and do your homework on the existence of reincarnation, you?ll find that there?s much more ?proof? for it than against it.
If you establish your case on the laws of probability, then the existence of reincarnation would triumph because more than two-thirds of the world believes in it. If you base your argument on historical documents, then you?ll find that there are many references to reincarnation, particularly in the Bible. If you predicate your findings on logic, then there?s no contest: Reincarnation is more logical than any other opposing viewpoint. If you strictly rely on religion as your basis for a conclusion, then the argument for reincarnation wins again, because it?s either believed whole-heartedly, or at least, tolerated by the vast majority of the world?s populace.
When substantiated by historical documents, the case for the existence of reincarnation has far more followers than opponents. All of the major religious writings mention reincarnation. None of them, including the Bible, ever state that reincarnation, or the belief that it exists, is false. The vast majority of famous authors have written about reincarnation; few have not. The Dead Sea Scrolls, and writings by the Essenes, (an early Gnostic sect), are making modern-day Christianity take notice in reanalyzing their theological teachings. These scribes were reincarnationists. Early writings on reincarnation were composed as far back as 2500 B.C. in China. Other writings, such those in Egypt 3500 B.C., or in China as far back as 4500 B.C., all predate the earliest records of Judaism from which Christianity sprung.
Great philosophers and writers?such as Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, Pythagoras, Lao-tze, Chang-tze, and Plotinus?all believed in reincarnation. Christian theologians?including St. Augustine, St. Clement, Origen, Basilides, Christian apologist Tatian, Valentinus, the manes, St. Jerome, Porphyry, St. Pamphilius, Iamblichus, Athenagoras, and St. Gregory?are just a few of the legions who believed in reincarnation. The Nag-Hammadi scrolls indicate that Jesus was either an Essene, a student of the Essenes, or at least associated very closely with this sect (which was said to have believed in reincarnation) during the ?lost? or ?silent? years of his life between the ages of 12 and 30. All this evidence supports the argument for reincarnation, rather than against it.
If you base your case on logic, the existence of reincarnation prevails. Reincarnation furnishes us with very logical explanations for the inequities of life. Why is one person born poor, and another rich? Why does one person die young as opposed to another who lives a long life? Why is one person crippled, and another whole? I could go on and on. The existence of reincarnation offers a reason for these injustices because it presents the case that there?s more than one life to live.
If God is all-loving and all merciful (the basic teachings of Jesus Christ), then why does evil exist? Negativity can?t survive when you know through God?s loving and merciful nature, He allows you to incarnate more than once to perfect your soul. You can then experience a life in which you?re rich, poor, crippled, whole, young, or old. Logically, reincarnation doesn?t detract from the teachings of Jesus; it augments them. God doesn?t care how long it takes or how many lives you must live to perfect. He only wants you to achieve the ultimate goal?the perfection of your own soul.
If the argument against the existence of reincarnation is based on religion, then the nonbelievers are not well informed. All of the Eastern religions support reincarnation, and Western religions are changing their views rapidly. Nowadays, most Christians either believe in reincarnation or tolerate it because in no way does it detract from their teachings. In fact, it actually broadens them.
If you research the early Christian church, you?ll find that almost all of the references to reincarnation in the Bible were expunged by the fourth century. This was an act of humankind, not God; regardless of this attempt to eradicate reincarnation, almost every Christian Gnostic sect still believed in it. These sects, in turn, were literally ?wiped out? by the early Church. The history of the Christian Church is filled with murder, bloodshed, and torture. (The Holy Inquisition is a prime example.) The early Christians, who believed in reincarnation, were much more loving and understanding than the ?warlike? Church rulers of the Middle Ages.
Despite many of the arguments disputing its existence, reincarnation seems to have the upper hand?truth always surfaces in the end. If skeptics argue with you, ask them to research reincarnation and try to prove it doesn?t exist. They can investigate it endlessly, but they won?t find any true evidence against it. It won?t matter, though, because in their search, they?ll find tomes of overwhelming validation that it is, in fact, truth.

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Mixomatosis said:

How can you claim to know what happens after death? Who gave you the authority to come out and state how the whole "system" works? Let me guess.. some stupid book you read.

That's right, I invite you to state why you believe whatever afterlife fantasy you believe. It seems strange to me that anyone would claim to have the answer considering how you can't possibly have the answer.

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ergot said:

No evidence of an after-life. Period. Mixomatosis is cool for bringing this topic to a thread. We die, we decompose, we fuel other life through our organic waste. Our existence does not end, but our chance to experience it does. And nothing more could ever prossibly be proven at this stage of humankind.

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adrug said:

We all have to have faith in something...whether it be an afterlife or NO afterlife. 

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Well, myself, I believe in the soul. I believe in reincarnation until we learn enough to wake up and live in our true state. I guess it is sort of hard to decide on something, eh? hehe

But I don't like expect anything to happen, because there just isn't any way of knowing.
Peace.

ergot said:

No evidence of an after-life. Period. Mixomatosis is cool for bringing this topic to a thread. We die, we decompose, we fuel other life through our organic waste. Our existence does not end, but our chance to experience it does. And nothing more could ever prossibly be proven at this stage of humankind.

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muhurgle said:

But just becaues you want something to be true doesn't make it so.   

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Just because you want no-higher-existence after-death to be true, doesnt make it so.  

SkorpivoMusterion said:

I just had an epiphany related to the subject of the whole matter of what is described in LoF's post...

have any of you had like, yknow.."future flashbacks"? Sorta like Deja Vu, but a lil "more" than that? Like suddenly you feel like you've been there, you've already seen this, you actually "remember" this moment, even though it didn't happen up until then.

I've had several incidents like this...like small things that have no significance, I'll have this image in my head, just some random image...and like, years later.. BOOM! i LIVE that image! i see the whole "scene" right in front of me, like right there just as exactly i have pictured in my head years ago...like just standing there doing nothing really noteworthy of significance or whatever...
I've had this happen to me quite a few times...and i've talked to alot of other people about it, who also related....so this could indeed be another supporting factor of the whole premise which is quite thoroughly and articulately explained in LoF's post...
like maybe we're actually "remembering" what we had planned out?
And maybe psychics are people who remember faster than most people?
Hmmm...I'ma dwell on this epiphany s'more...

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Hey, now there's also a chance I am divine and I will damn you to hell after this world no matter what..... a 50% chance, actually. WORSHIP ME, O STATISTICAL ONE.

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Why don't you believe in any of these other theories? They're just as plausible as the standard reincarnation scenario, aren't they? Now, I could make up thousands of different theories like that, and they would all be equally good.

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Please answer his questions!   

Edit: Is my "When we die we all become the pubes of master Frodo!" theory already accepted?

muhurgle said:

Believing that you're born again after you die, is one theory. Maybe after we die, we become a star in the sky? Or maybe you go to heaven with god and his pals? Or maybe you haunt for ever, as a ghost? Or maybe your consciousness is transfered to an inanimate object, like a rock? Maybe your consciousness split off into all the particles that you're made up of, and when you're eventually part of another being, you'll be part of that consciousness? Or maybe, nothing happens. Maybe you just cease to exist?

Sure I could come up with all kinds of loony out-landish infinite possibilities, maybe we turn into a blade of grass? maybe we become a zit on someone's ass? Maybe our souls evaporate into the clouds and transform into rain and hits the ocean and evaporates all over again?


Why don't you believe in any of these other theories?
Because I have to choose what I feel to be true. What my heart tells me is truly true. And that's Reincarnation. And the reason I choose reincarnation, is because sincerely doubt that I turn into a star, or a blade of grass, or become a molecule in a dog's turd when I die. I believe in my theory, because it's by far the most PLAUSIBLE theory, at least IMHO.

They're just as plausible as the standard reincarnation scenario, aren't they?
Thats a matter of opinion. My opinion of the matter is that the theory(s) of reincarnation has REASONING behind it, you reincarnate for a REASON, be it to come to this plane of existence to learn and progress your soul, throughout the lives that YOU planned out yourself.
If you find equally plausible reasoning behind any other belief, no matter how far fetched, and feel that you believe that is the most likely cause, then believe it. Because I believe the truth is...it doesn't change what really happens when you die, be it going back home to the next dimension where you came from. In the end, everybody reaches the same destination. Regardless of what they beleive. This is my belief.

Now, I could make up thousands of different theories like that, and they would all be equally good.
You really think the theory of becoming a dust-mite on some guy's hairy armpit has an equally good reasoning behind the theory as the "standard reincarnation" theory? If you do, then -shrugs- whatever floats your boat.

Here comes the difficult part: since they are all equally good,
Thats still a matter of opinion.

and there is no proof for any of them, what would be the logical conclusion? It would be the one that requires least conjecture. The one that doesn't require that I dream up the mechanism of how my soul is transfered to a star, or anything else like that, without any proof of that actually happening. And that just happens to be the conclusion that we just cease to exist.

to quote Chris Rock "If everybody knew we lived after death, like if we had proof that reincarnation existed, the world would way crazier! waaaay crazier!" In my own opinion in my own belief in reincarnation, there is good reason behind that, which Chris Rock stated quite humorously


This isn't proof that there is no afterlife, or whatever. It's just the most plausible theory, and there is a significant difference between plausbile and proven. 

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muhurgle said:

Even if your deja-vu experience was significant, I don't see how that relates to reincarnation or afterlife.

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SkorpivoMusterion said:

muhurgle said:

Even if your deja-vu experience was significant, I don't see how that relates to reincarnation or afterlife.

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Okay, I'm gonna go real slow for you here...

Lets say you have a "daydream" or whatever...and you have a very clear vivid image of you doing some random thing, say, washing dishes on a sunny day.
Then you snap outta your day-dream state of mind as someone calls your name and then thats the end of that.

Then, say, 1 year later....
on a sunny afternoon...you decide to clean the house...and along doing so, do the dishes...you begin to wash the dishes...and alla the sudden, it hits you like a frieght train...you remember that exact moment...and yor mind races to make sense out of the whole situation, and if you're quick enough in your memory, you'll remember that you actually had that EXACT same "scene" daydreamed out in your head, a year ago. Everything was identical.

Now, on top of that, lets say you had SEVERAL similar experiences with you having this exact same type of incident, throughout your life.
And on top of that, you've talked to people about, and THEY TOO, relate to it and have experienced the same thing, and so on.

Now tell me, what would YOU, make of that? what conclusion would you come to as to what the reason behind the incident that not JUST you, but other people all over the world has experienced? And why would you come to that conclusion.

I already told you my opinion and conclusion on the matter in my other post.

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ergot said:

Perhaps we are destined to re-live our same life over and over in some cyclical universe? And our subconsious leaks out memories? ...perhaps adding randomness to each life each time?

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ergot said:

...and how come we don't incarnate into living beings on other planets?

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who says we don't? Who says other beings from other planets havent incarnated on this planet?

Perhaps George Lucas incarnated on this planet from a distant planet in a galaxy far far away...Perhaps subconscious memories of past lives on alien worlds and advanced civilizations fueled his creation of Star Wars...

Perhaps the same goes for Gene Roddenberry...the creator of Star Trek. 

muhurgle said:

Um. I would come to the conclusion that one could see glimpses of the future? And.. how does that relate to an afterlife?

See glimpses of future -> something very obvious -> Afterlife

Yeah, I understand it now  

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ergot said:
or perhaps they are using something called creativity and not everything has a supernatural origin. 

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Where does the creativity come from?  
Think about why certain people seem to have BRILLIANT creativity when it comes to creating imaginary spaceships, alien worlds, and making entire sagas out of em on film, whereas some people can't even think up of a cool alien-name if their life counted on it.
So, perhaps....

muhurgle said:

Believing that you're born again after you die, is one theory. Maybe after we die, we become a star in the sky? Or maybe you go to heaven with god and his pals? Or maybe you haunt for ever, as a ghost? Or maybe your consciousness is transfered to an inanimate object, like a rock? Maybe your consciousness split off into all the particles that you're made up of, and when you're eventually part of another being, you'll be part of that consciousness? Or maybe, nothing happens. Maybe you just cease to exist?

Why don't you believe in any of these other theories? They're just as plausible as the standard reincarnation scenario, aren't they? Now, I could make up thousands of different theories like that, and they would all be equally good.

Here comes the difficult part: since they are all equally good, and there is no proof for any of them, what would be the logical conclusion? It would be the one that requires least conjecture. The one that doesn't require that I dream up the mechanism of how my soul is transfered to a star, or anything else like that, without any proof of that actually happening. And that just happens to be the conclusion that we just cease to exist.

This isn't proof that there is no afterlife, or whatever. It's just the most plausible theory, and there is a significant difference between plausbile and proven. 

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AWSOME POST ! 
That's exactly what I always argue with people who
try to use the "proof by lack of contradiction", and
they never have an answer...
If one believes in God because there's no proof otherwise,
well then I could belive that my salt shaker created the
universe cause there's no proof otherwise...
 

Mixomatosis said:

Skorpivo: That does happen to me. Considering how I dream hours every day I don't find it too weird that every now and then I'll get a strong sense of deja vu, like maybe I dreamed that moment before. My friend who is studying to be a psychologist told me that scientists can induce that feeling in people by messing with their brains, so he brushes it off. It's just some physical chemical reaction in the brain, he'd say. In a way that doesn't mean ANYTHING but then it also opens up the possibility for the deja vu to be a chemical let loose in the brain by a situation completely unrelated to your memories. It might happen because of something you ate and not come from your memory bank at all.

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Mixomatosis said:

IMAGES, in your head, that you dreamed of or visualized with your mind's eye in a day-dream state of mind....

yeah that's what I'm talking about too. deja vu.. that's french for "already seen." I'll be sitting down and I'll suddenly realize that I've sat there before, with this object to my left in this position, having this same conversation with this same person. Don't try to tell me that I can't be experiencing what you're experiencing because I don't come to the same conclusions as you.

No, I wasnt sure if you were on the same page as I was. But the conclusion you come to, is that those experiences are all the result of some chemical running around loose, in your brain? This is what you believe? lol, hey if it floats your boat, so be it, I'm not gonna judge your beliefs.

And btw, yes, there ARE egyptians, in Egypt, who still live in quite a medieval-state era compared to the higher societies of a world, and still speak egyptian, There are linguist specialists who still speak Gaelic for christ sakes.

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Following Late Egyptian are two stages of the spoken language, Demotic (c. 715 BC-470 AD) and Coptic (c. 400 AD-c. 1600). Egyptian words borrowed into early Greek probably reflect Demotic (Greek demotikos = "popular") pronunciation. Demotic was written in its own cursive script, so this form of the written language is also called "Demotic." While the last hieroglyphic inscription was made at Philae in 394 AD, not long after the Christian Roman Emperor Theodosius I (379-395) ordered the closure of pagan temples, the last Demotic text is from 470.

Demotic writing disappeared only because, as the Egyptians themselves converted to Christianity, they ceased to use the old script. Instead, they began to write in the Greek alphabet, with the addition of seven letters borrowed from Demotic to write sounds that didn't exist in Greek. Since vowels did exist in Greek, we suddenly have the complete vocalization of the last stage of the Egyptian language, which is then called "Coptic," from the Arabic term for Egyptian Christians

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Mixomatosis said:

This is what you believe? lol, hey if it floats your boat, so be it, I'm not gonna judge your beliefs.

A stunning rebuttal! Laughing at my "stupid" beliefs, that's great! Not only that, but that's not even my belief! I guess you're just going to end the debate here without adressing my points? That's what I call victory.

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Do tell, because I'm really interested in what a skeptic such as you may choose to believe.  

ergot said:

No evidence of an after-life. Period. Mixomatosis is cool for bringing this topic to a thread. We die, we decompose, we fuel other life through our organic waste. Our existence does not end, but our chance to experience it does. And nothing more could ever prossibly be proven at this stage of humankind.

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SkorpivoMusterion said:
I just had an epiphany related to the subject of the whole matter of what is described in LoF's post...

have any of you had like, yknow.."future flashbacks"? Sorta like Deja Vu, but a lil "more" than that? Like suddenly you feel like you've been there, you've already seen this, you actually "remember" this moment, even though it didn't happen up until then.

I've had several incidents like this...like small things that have no significance, I'll have this image in my head, just some random image...and like, years later.. BOOM! i LIVE that image! i see the whole "scene" right in front of me, like right there just as exactly i have pictured in my head years ago...like just standing there doing nothing really noteworthy of significance or whatever...
I've had this happen to me quite a few times...and i've talked to alot of other people about it, who also related....so this could indeed be another supporting factor of the whole premise which is quite thoroughly and articulately explained in LoF's post...
like maybe we're actually "remembering" what we had planned out?
And maybe psychics are people who remember faster than most people?
Hmmm...I'ma dwell on this epiphany s'more...

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From A biography of Edgar Cayce:
"What is the meaning of life?" he asked. "What is the real nature of man? What is the meaning of birth and death? Why are we here? Cayce accepted Mr. Lammers offer to explain these mysteries through his powers of hypnosis. What followed was the beginning of the metaphysical thought that emerged from 2,500 "Life" readings (information about a person's past lives), as distinguished from the "Physical" readings (medical diagnosis and cures) he had previously been giving.

For Cayce, this was the beginning of another period of tortuous self-doubt. Brought up in an atmosphere of strict, orthodox, Protestant Christianity, he was uninformed on the other great religions of the world and their similarities with his own. What the readings now said seemed foreign to everything he had been taught and had been teaching in his Sunday school classes for many years. The essential principles of the great religions, said the readings, were nevertheless all the same - they were only clothed in different garments.

Cayce withheld judgment on the point for a long time. In the end he and those close to the work came to accept reincarnation. It was improvable of course, but in provable instances the readings had shown themselves to be honest if not infallible. The answers were consistent.

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SkorpivoMusterion said:

Obviously you made the same mistake as Muhurgle did...you misunderstood the post. 

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'splain it to me, Lucy. 

SkorpivoMusterion said:

SkorpivoMusterion said:

I just had an epiphany related to the subject of the whole matter of what is described in LoF's post...

have any of you had like, yknow.."future flashbacks"? Sorta like Deja Vu, but a lil "more" than that? Like suddenly you feel like you've been there, you've already seen this, you actually "remember" this moment, even though it didn't happen up until then.

I've had several incidents like this...like small things that have no significance, I'll have this image in my head, just some random image...and like, years later.. BOOM! i LIVE that image! i see the whole "scene" right in front of me, like right there just as exactly i have pictured in my head years ago...like just standing there doing nothing really noteworthy of significance or whatever...
I've had this happen to me quite a few times...and i've talked to alot of other people about it, who also related....so this could indeed be another supporting factor of the whole premise which is quite thoroughly and articulately explained in LoF's post...
like maybe we're actually "remembering" what we had planned out?
And maybe psychics are people who remember faster than most people?
Hmmm...I'ma dwell on this epiphany s'more...

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^Thats also just another one of my own "clues" that support my belief in reincarnation.
I know quite a few people who have had this type of experience...
You could do a world-wide survey of it with everybody, and you would get countless people reporting the exact same type of experience(s).
What does this lead to? Who can say? Nobody can say with absolute authority. But, I can come to my own conclusion, based on what I feel to be the most likely cause, which is Fate.
I believe in Fate. I'm a Fatalist. What I've described above, that not only me but so many others have experienced, supports Fate. You don't have to believe it if you dont want to, hell you can believe whatever you feel is best, be it a simple "glitch in the Matrix".
I believe, that our subconscious mind leaks memories from us planning out the lives that we incarnate into, hence the "future flashbacks" that so many people have at times...
Again, this is just one of my reasons for my choice in the belief, of an afterlife.
If you have a better theory explaining otherwise, please feel free to share, I'm open-minded to listen to whatever ideas you feel is better and nor will I judge you for your ideas.

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