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reincarnation
    #1024015 -

hey all,
who here digs on reincarnation? are there different types of reincarnation? i am curious about those of you who post often, i want to know where peeps stand on this issue.
i for one do believe in reincarnation.


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose

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Re: reincarnation [Re: CleverName]
    #1024176 -

I perosonally am unsure on the whole re-incarnation thing. Here's what I have backing my position;

Many believe that the soul is 'uploaded' into a new body after one dies, which I find a little hard to believe. The contradictory factor on this is that science has proven that energy does not just disappear - it is transferred through to something else, so with this I think hrm.... If someone dies, and they're brain has all this energy inside it, well if they are dead then they aren't using all this thought power so it has to go SOMEWhere.. where does it go? This could be classified as "the soul", so to speak - aka conciousness. That little thing that drives you to make decisions - that's conciousness .. What happens to that when you die? I don't think people are still concious when they die. I HIGHLY doubt that, (although it can't be proven) - so the energy has to go somewhere. Reincarnation would be a decent answer to that problem. Something that backs this up would be the fact that you don't remember past lives. Conciousness doesn't neccassarily require a brain, it USES a brain, and the brain is where memory is stored, so if the conciousness was transferred to another brain, it wouldn't have the backup made previously. Like I said - there's no proof towards it, and no proof against it. It's all theory - and when it's theory one has to be open to new ideas. I see what I see and that's what I base my judgements on. (Or in this case what I hear).

Run with that for a while.



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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.

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Re: reincarnation [Re: CleverName]
    #1024277 -

I believe in reincarnation. Although the way I see it, one does not become an animal in the next life after being a human . I don't know, maybe there are exceptions.. maybe I just don't know.. but I believe there are different levels of reincarnation.
Humans, for example, follow their own path of reincarnation. We begin as pure spirit form, and incarnate into the physical body. First lessons of the physical world are hard, as we have no clue how to be physical. It's all we can do to stop from falling off cliffs or starving to death. I also think that when our human spirit first forms, it goes through the perception of several animals to get "instincts"... you could call these your totem animals or spirit animals.
We enter into physical reality to gain experience. Through experience we gain wisdom, which we bring back to our spiritual form which is given back to All That Is, that uses the cumuliative wisdom of all things to constantly evolve.

We are born, we live and experience, we die, go to the other side, process the experiences, incarnate again with a deeper understanding of how the physical works and how we can better interact with it. This process repeats itself over and over until we have reached a point where we can no longer learn anything from the physical world. From there we have a choice.. we may go back to the physical and incarnate with all of our knowledge...our only purpose for going back to be helping others to reach our level. (Bodhisattva) ...Or.... we may enter into the presence of God, and live eternally in bliss with all things (nirvana)

That's my take on it, in a nutshell.

But I believe that there are different forms of reincarnation. For instance, animals follow their own path of reincarnation. As well as plants, minerals, humans, and whatever else. We are not only humans physically, but a human spirit. Animal spirits follow a different path of evolution and reincarnation... not that any one is "higher" or better than another, but they just have different needs so they take different paths. In the end all is one.


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Re: reincarnation [Re: Shroomism]
    #1024294 -

are soul and energy the same thing? whats the difference?


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose

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Re: reincarnation [Re: CleverName]
    #1024300 -

I don't think there is a difference. Soul is energy. Soul is consciousness.


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Edited by Shroomism (11/05/02 12:39 PM)

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Re: reincarnation [Re: CleverName]
    #1024352 -

The biggest (and insurmountable) problem with reincarnation theory is a purely mathematical one.

Today there are pretty close to 7 billion people on the planet, presumably each one with a soul. Ten thousand years ago there were maybe 1 million people on the planet... that's one ten thousandth as many. If there are a fixed number of souls (let's assume conservatively 10 billion ... this assumes, of course, that the human race will become extinct before the number of humans alive at any given moment exceeds 10 billion people) there's not much of a waiting time between leaving one body and entering the next... these days. But such was not the case 10,000 years ago.

Imagine the scene: you are a soul waiting for a spare body ten thousand years ago. There are only 1 million bodies available, each lasting maybe 25 years (lifespans were shorter then). For every available body there are ten thousand souls. Ten thousand times 25 years equals 250,000 years. Yes, I know this is a greatly simplified calculation, because five thousand years ago there might have been 3 million bodies, three hundred years ago there might have been 500 million, etc., but the increasing availability of bodies is a GEOMETRIC progression, with over half the people who have ever lived being born in less than the last two hundred years. Also, in recent times lifespans have lenthened, adding another layer of complexity.

Let's take a generous guesstimate and say the waiting time for the FIRST incarnation of a soul is not 250,000 years, but only 80,000 years. I doubt it could be any less than that no matter how one juggles the figures.

The problem is, the human race (at least as Homo sapiens sapiens) is not that old yet. Another problem is that this also shoots down in flames those who claim to remember several (sometimes dozens) of past incarnations. The problem is already bad enough with billions of souls waiting for their FIRST incarnation -- it gets much worse if one presumes that SOME souls (how are they chosen?) get to live several lifetimes at various points in history while billions and billions of others are still waiting for their FIRST crack at it.

pinky


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Re: reincarnation [Re: Phred]
    #1024369 -

You are only taking into account Earth.

I think we choose our own incarnation, based on the parents, the lessons we wish to learn.. the environment... and whoever is best suited to learn the most from a certain incarnation will take the body.

There are plenty of human bodies across the Universe. A soul is not limited by the number on Earth.


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Re: reincarnation [Re: Phred]
    #1024489 -

I don't think souls are discrete but are rather infinitely divisible while still retaining all the original information (like a hologram). More people exist on Earth now because the physical and biological laws allow it, so souls are being multiplied, like taking a cup of water out of an infinite lake of consciousness.

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Re: reincarnation [Re: CleverName]
    #1024815 -

i never believed in reincarnation in any of my previous lives, so i see no reason to start believing in this one...
:wink: ...


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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Re: reincarnation [Re: Phred]
    #1025017 -

> The biggest (and insurmountable) problem with reincarnation theory is a
> purely mathematical one.

Maybe consciousness doesn't play by math rules (sort of like subatomic particles)?

> Imagine the scene: you are a soul waiting for a spare body ten thousand
> years ago.

Would a 'free soul' even be capable of percieving time? How would it feel boredom with no brain or memory?

> The problem is, the human race (at least as Homo sapiens sapiens) is not
> that old yet.

What about aliens? What about infinite parallell universes with infinite souls and infinite bodies? Who says consciousness is still bound to time after it allegedly departs the body? Why can't it incarnate into the future, or past?

And who cares about these silly souls, anyways? Aren't we everything we percieve, with a clump of perceptions related to one person being labeled as 'I'? Why should that person care about consciousness? And is consciousness even capable of suffering?

My third circuit is tripping ALL THE TIME NOW! =)


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Please remove all dollar signs from my listed contact information

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Re: reincarnation [Re: CleverName]
    #1025040 -

Matter and energy are constant, neither can be created or destroyed. Matter can become energy (if i remember my chemistry teacher correctly) and vice versa. They also change forms.

I think consciousness acts in a similar manner.. you die, your consciousness is dispersed and.. eh.. reallocated? I'd wager the specifics of such a thing are far greater than that, though.

I dunno... just an idea.

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Re: reincarnation [Re: Metasyn]
    #1025293 -

I don't think souls are discrete but are rather infinitely divisible while still retaining all the original information (like a hologram).

Ah. Sort of like amoebas or bacteria, then. Okay, let's suppose that is true. As the number of empty husks (newborns) increases, the number of souls increases (through a sort of "soul mitosis") accordingly to provide enough stuffing for each husk. Why, then, would it ever be necessary for the same "soul" to occupy more than one husk?

pinky


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Re: reincarnation [Re: Phred]
    #1025360 -

To have a variety of experiences in the infinite range of possible perspectives.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: reincarnation [Re: ]
    #1025726 -

Matter and energy are constant, neither can be created or destroyed.

if that's true (and all your chemistry and physics books will make you think so) then where did the matter come from? if you can't create something out of nothing, then the matter and energy HAD to be created in order to exist. therefore matter CAN be created or destroyed, otherwise matter wouldn't be here. 

now you made my brain hurt  :grin:

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Re: reincarnation [Re: Shroomism]
    #1026663 -

I do believe in reincarnation, as it is the only way I can explain many things about life...i.e. people born with birth defects, child prodigies, etc. We can see there is an evolution of physical form, and why not a spriritual evolution as well? In fact the physical sprang from the spiritual, just as every physical action began as a thought or impulse. It is also an appealingly simple theory. I am suspicious of complex theories- they make me think the author is trying to scramble around, filling up the holes in his logic until it's a mess.

My only real question about reincarnation is why come HERE to learn lessons about spirituality when we were already much closer to the spiritual in the non-material realm?? And how does a lesson learned in the physical help in our presumably ultimate goal of permanent, bodiless spiritual existence? Can't we just observe material life from there and draw our lessons from that rather that go through a painful ordeal here?

My only real explanation is that somehow we got entangled in the material world and are working our way out of it through repeated rebirth until the lures of the this world are powerless over us. We repay our wrongs to others in past lives by experiencing them ourselves until the books are balanced. And the only way to right a wrong commited here is by experiencing the effects of it on the plane we committed it.

The fine details of reincarnation are still murky to me, but I'm sticking with it because it has answered far more questions than it provoked. It is also consistent with the themes of the cycles and seasons of nature that I can readily see and observe. Another benefit is that it makes one who believes a more responsible person as every thought and action is directly accountable to him as opposed to say, Christianity where a third party picks up the tab no matter what your future actions.


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I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: reincarnation [Re: Jellric]
    #1026851 -

I do believe in reincarnation, as it is the only way I can explain many things about life...i.e. people born with birth defects...

Perhaps a course in biology would help you to actually understand the world around you. Damaged DNA through drugs, disease, or environmental factors explains birth defects quite well without resorting to any esoteric or karmic influences.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: reincarnation [Re: Swami]
    #1026881 -

But Swamiiii.... science isn't as interesting! Waaaaahhh!

[/sarcasm]


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: reincarnation [Re: Jellric]
    #1026887 -

Good words...

My only real question about reincarnation is why come HERE to learn lessons about spirituality when we were already much closer to the spiritual in the non-material realm?? And how does a lesson learned in the physical help in our presumably ultimate goal of permanent, bodiless spiritual existence? Can't we just observe material life from there and draw our lessons from that rather that go through a painful ordeal here?

Well... that's a good question. Not one I can answer absolutely, but I can try to shed a little insight on. Physical world was created to keep the spiritual from stagnating. It is a constant drama of lessons and activities with rules and boundaries. Through lifetimes of physical experience, we learn many hard lessons about reality that ultimately allow our understanding of the spiritual world to reach higher levels of understanding.
My basic knowledge of Creation and the Universe tells me that Creation is constantly evolving. All things are a part of creation, physical and spiritual. These seperate yet connected entities are all experiencing trillions of fragmented realities, in a complex integrated pattern. Each of these seperate beings learns a wide range of life lessons, through experience....which becomes wisdom. Creation uses this constant flow of learning and wisdom from all these seperate perceptions to evolve.
The physical world is like a spiritual school... a really advanced one. It's not easy... but the rewards are amazing. The pain..the suffering... the joy... the love... we come here for the FULL RANGE of human experience. Through it we gain a better understanding of ourselves, and the workings of the universe. Once we become aware of our purpose, and our origin... our learning becomes ultra-focused... and we learn at amazing levels. It is astounding what one can accomplish when the big picture is seen clearly.


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Re: reincarnation [Re: Shroomism]
    #1026906 -

It is astounding what one can accomplish when the big picture is seen clearly.

No offense, but what have YOU accomplished?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: reincarnation [Re: Sclorch]
    #1026919 -

With my soul or with my physical incarnation?

Well so far in this life.. I have had many out of body experiences, lucid dream regularly, I have found true love, am comfortable with my existance and connection with God, have a deep understanding of the spiritual world, have a band and many wonderful friends.. just to glance at the tip of the iceberg...


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