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Re: Death [Re: Zildjian]
    #1955692 -

Quote:

I am a materialist and I believe that our consciousness is simply electrochemical processes in our brains.




Reductionism only goes so far. I used to be a staunch materialist myself,but as I learned more about the brain,the mind,and had a few heavy LSD experiences,I now believe other possiblities exist.

I seriously doubt there's a place with clouds and angels and harps and shit, but I don't think modern science has the abilitity to eleminate the fact that consciousness might go on in some form or another after death that's totally beyond human comphrenhension. In fact,I think some quantum models of the mind allow for this.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams

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Re: Death [Re: monoamine]
    #1955822 -

i think once we die were born again and you can't remember what happened in your last life

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Re: Death [Re: showcivic17]
    #1956113 -

i can't wait to die, i wanna know what happens.... it's like a good novel, but hopefully i won't be dissapointed when i'm done. we'll all see.

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Re: Death [Re: Seuss]
    #1956716 -

Seuss said:
An interesting question, can life be created from inanimate objects/chemicals?)



It has been done on a very basic level, it is known as prebiotic evolution.

In 1953 Stanley L. Miller (1930? ) prepared a mixture of methane, ammonia, hydrogen, and water?compounds thought to be prevalent on Earth before life developed. Subjecting the mixture to electrical sparks produced amino acids, the building blocks of proteins. This was one of the first investigations into how life could have arisen from nonliving material billions of years ago. More recent research has suggested RNA to have been more crucial to the development of early life. Just how RNA came to be, and how it could have replicated prior to the existence of proteins and DNA, is a vital question in the study of prebiotic (or prebiological) evolution.

you should search for information about this.

I know it basically says they haven't made any progress :smile:, but hey it's a start. It doesn't mean god exists, or something created us, or that there is an afterlife.

Doesn't taking drugs to experience 'divinity' proove that your mind is in fact a bunch of chemicals alterable by injesting other chemicals?

what is Quantom Mechanics? is it the same as quantum physics? I've heard a little about this but nothing serious. I friend once told me that it was about having an infinite number of realities occuring in the same space in time, and something about how the inability to move through them could be expressed as the inability for a 2 dimentional creature to get out of a circle drawn around it. It would be nice if you could give me some info about it, I really enjoy learning new things about new ideas, especially ones concerning my beliefs.
 

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Re: Death [Re: Zildjian]
    #1957234 -

Zildjian said:
Doesn't taking drugs to experience 'divinity' proove that your mind is in fact a bunch of chemicals alterable by injesting other chemicals?


Why would it?


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: Death [Re: Zildjian]
    #1957241 -

hey zildjian read about bhom's theory of the implicate and explicate orders, its a good theory on quantum mechanics.


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I'll eat myself if i have to!

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Re: Death [Re: Alan Stone]
    #1958973 -

Quote:
Alan Stone said:
Why would it?



Ok, when you injest a drug it doesn't somehow "unleash" some kind of "sprit within".

When you take a drug, the active chemicals in them modify your brain chemistry by either mimicing a neurotransmitter, making the brain produce more of one kind of neurotransmitter, or blocking the reuptake of a kind of neurotransmitter.

E.g. heroin is a drug. heroin mimics naturally produced endorphins in the brain. endorphins naturally occur when you are hurt, and are designed to relieve pain. By taking heroin, you flood your brain with fake endorpins which make you very high.

Hallucinogens work in a slightly different way, but basically taking a chemical to make you "see god" prooves that it is in fact your brain which is matter and not spritual in any way that is being altered by the chemical.


I read some stuff about DMT on the internet, and discovered it is a very interesting drug, but still a drug that effects neuronal activity. What is interesting is that your body apparently produces it before death, which would mean that the 'out of body experience' or 'going towards the bright light' is in fact your brain chemistry fucking around, and not the presence of god.

"The brain however, is where DMT exerts its most interesting effects. The brain is a highly sensitive organ, especially susceptible to toxins and metabolic imbalances. In the brain, sites rich in DMT-sensitive serotonin receptors are involved in mood, perception, and thought"

I'm looking into this 'bohm's theory'

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Re: Death [Re: Zildjian]
    #1959021 -

Quote:
What is interesting is that your body apparently produces it [DMT] before death, which would mean that the 'out of body experience' or 'going towards the bright light' is in fact your brain chemistry fucking around, and not the presence of god.




What if the brain is a bio computer and the information it receives/transmits can be non-local?

The fact that chemicals can cause brain changes is no proof that the presence of God is not being experienced. We know the brain carries a magnetic field and information is conveyed every day through signals transmitted through that medium. Perhaps certain chemicals alter the brain's magnetic field in such a way as to allow one to tune in to the "channel" God is broadcasting on.

If any spiritual entity is attempting to communicate to a being in the physical world wouldn't he have to do it through a physical interface? How could anyone be aware of anything at all if not for the production of certain brain chemicals?


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I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: Death [Re: Alan Stone]
    #1959054 -

Quote:
Doesn't taking drugs to experience 'divinity' proove that your mind is in fact a bunch of chemicals alterable by injesting other chemicals?



All it proves is that the mind can be altered by chemicals. It doesn't prove the mind is just chemical processes.

For example,tell someone that just took their first shot of heroin that it's merely the heroin binding to their mu receptors in thier brain and the pleasure they are experiening isn't real,they'll probably just laugh.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams

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Re: Death [Re: monoamine]
    #1959115 -

Quote:
monoamine said:
Quote:
Doesn't taking drugs to experience 'divinity' proove that your mind is in fact a bunch of chemicals alterable by injesting other chemicals?



All it proves is that the mind can be altered by chemicals. It doesn't prove the mind is just chemical processes.

For example,tell someone that just took their first shot of heroin that it's merely the heroin binding to their mu receptors in thier brain and the pleasure they are experiening isn't real,they'll probably just laugh.




I'm sorry, I think you may have misinterpreted what I said. A herion high is 'real'; a DMT high is 'real'. You can detect 'REAL' changes in someones brain using a variety of techniques, such as Magnetic Resonance Imaging. You can actually see something doing something, like baking soda in vinegar, it is a 'REAL' thing. What they are experiencing in their sences is 'real' in that respect, but what THEY think is 'real' may NOT be.

for example: When on any hallucinogen, such as LSD, you see things that you KNOW are not real, such as wood-grain 'moving' or things getting bigger and smaller. Just because you see them doesn't mean they are actually happening, you might think you can float, but you actually can't. Have someone on LSD tell you that the trees are talking to them and you'll laugh.

About now, you could argue about how you can't know for sure that something is real just because you can see, smell, taste, touch and hear it; but lets just say if the majority humans can see, smell, taste, touch and hear something, all in the same way; (e.g. YOU) then it is 'real'.

As far as having a magnetic field in your mind goes, sure it exists, but don't you think if humans can detect a magnetic field in a live thinking human, they'd be able to see it 'float' out of the head of someone dying?

Of course it would make sence to have something physical on earth that would allow you to channel into god, but not via magnetic fields! It is possible that your brain contains some sub-atomic particles that are completely indetectable to any machine created by humans thus far, and that a fungus or plant contains some other sub-atomic particles that can mix with your sub-atomic particles, and open up a line with the big G. But it seems pretty ad hoc to come up with such a prediction. Then again, we can't 'see' gravity, but we know it exists, so I guess it is possible.

Oh, I looked up that Bohm guy. It's a bit over my head, but I liked the idea (well, what I understood). I got the feeling that bohm was pretty deterministic, and I really support that. I read about him in this thesis I found, it was trying to disprove the theory. The guy that wrote it was trying to prove that while we can detect the half-life of some radioactive matter, we cannot predict in what order each atom will split. I think thats what this guy was trying to say. I really need a physicist to explain it to me in dumb dumb speak.

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Re: Death [Re: Zildjian]
    #1959547 -

Quote:
As far as having a magnetic field in your mind goes, sure it exists, but don't you think if humans can detect a magnetic field in a live thinking human, they'd be able to see it 'float' out of the head of someone dying?



Just to be clear, I'm not making the claim that the soul/spirit/mind is the magnetic field. I see the field as a medium of interface with the physical body. Perhaps an even finer form of intelligent energy is interfacing with that field. One that hasn't been discovered yet. We are discovering smaller and smaller subatomic particles all the time as we refine our tools.

Having said that, I've never heard of anyone seeing a magnetic field with the naked eye, and yet they do exist. Certainly not anything of the relatively weak field carried by the brain. Regardless, mystics and reports of NDE'ers tell us that the spirit world is non-local. This world is not a place as we think of it, but rather a state of consciousness. So nothing really moves anywhere physically.

Bells' theorem provides a useful real-world analogy: A quantum potential MUST be non-local for it to work. Another way of looking at it is particles must be connected at superluminal speeds.

Quote:
Of course it would make sence to have something physical on earth that would allow you to channel into god, but not via magnetic fields!



Ok, but I have to point out that is just an opinion.
What makes you so certain?


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I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: Death [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1959604 -

i will never die, and i have been alive since the birth of time.


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More lucid now the dreams become in which the forest dark and cold await me to engulf my soul within the flames of eternal sleep.

"I await this day with no fear ,but the knowlege that that most rewarding and enlightening experiance of life is death." - Chinacat

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Re: Death [Re: Jellric]
    #1962086 -

Jellric said:
Quote:
I see the field as a medium of interface with the physical body. Perhaps an even finer form of intelligent energy is interfacing with that field. One that hasn't been discovered yet. We are discovering smaller and smaller subatomic particles all the time as we refine our tools.




That is exactly what I was trying to say. I agree with the concept completely. I just don't think it is very likely, i have no other justification, and it IS just an opinion. Sorry, I do not understand physics very well, I thought a magnetic field concerned metal in some way (can you tell where I dropped out :smile: ). But yeah, it could be in this field, or perhaps some kind of wave or something.

The other day, I had a nice trip and imagined what death must be like. I figured that when you die, you could exist as a conscious floating in some wierd electrical universe, where you have no physical body (except this 'ball' of energy), but can sence things in the same way you 'see' closed eye visuals. I figured you'd be infinite and eventually loose the ability to think in words. You would be this 'ball' floating in space forever.

Do you think humans are hard-wired to be 'comfortable' reguardless of the situation? I read in this psychology text book that mood always levels out, reguardless of the circumstances and that in order to be really happy all the time, things would have to be continously getting better and better.

I think in the bible it describes heaven being like this. I don't think it would keep getting better in space, but it wouldn't get worse either. Fuck I don't know, any suggestions? 

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Re: Death [Re: Zildjian]
    #1962088 -

Zildjian said:
Just because you see them doesn't mean they are actually happening...

About now, you could argue about how you can't know for sure that something is real just because you can see, smell, taste, touch and hear it; but lets just say if the majority humans can see, smell, taste, touch and hear something, all in the same way; (e.g. YOU) then it is 'real'.



You actually proved my point for me. If you believe in science and the materialistic, monistic worldview, you could say brains are altered by chemicals and that makes you believe you've seen God. However, the fact you take a drug and subsequently see God doesn't at all prove the experience would be false. All it proves it that the drug opens new perspectives. The call whether that is the result of chemical interactions or just a higher vibrationary level of your soul cannot be made.

Second, because the majority of people sense something, it's real? How can you even suggest you know what the colour green looks like to me? Perhaps what we all call green could really be red for one person, blue for another.
Don't forget science is based upon axiomas like the assumption of the existence of time and space, the deterministic view that every result has a cause, and so on. Science requires as much faith as religion does, but it's easier to believe in, because it can 'prove' what it's saying. Can there really be evidence for the existance of time? Space perhaps? Science is, after all, a history of adjusted lies.

No single theory will ever touch upon the whole truth, because each theory offers only one perspective. Science and religion need eachother, and to comprehend totality we have to employ all possible options, not just our overrated raional brains.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: Death [Re: Seuss]
    #1962093 -

Quote:
Seuss said:
If death is the beginning, then what is life? 



The prequel :wink:

Seriously, though. I'm starting to believe more and more that we never really go anywhere or come from anywhere. We've always been around, and we are just imagining the fact we're moving, experiencing grief, joy, etc until we can free our minds and abandon the illusion. Hence, it doesn't matter if we die, since we were never really alive in the corporeal sense anyway.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

Edited by Alan Stone (09/29/03 06:31 AM)

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Re: Death [Re: Alan Stone]
    #1962124 -

Quote:
Alan Stone said:

Second, because the majority of people sense something, it's real? 



Yes, that is what I said. Of course you can choose a different opinion of what is real that makes my belief invalid, but that would be a little ad hoc don't you think?

How do we define colorblindness?
we don't say that %99 of people are colorblind, and that %1 can see color the 'right' way; it would be silly. That is why i defined 'real' this way, so it would make sence in my arguement, and because I felt it makes sence to define it that way.

I think you are a fruit. A juicy ripe fruit, sitting on a desk by a computer on the other side of the world, using the internet while the humans are out. Because I believe this, it makes it true and real.

Hell, the reason why I trust science is because it seems more credible than religion. That is the only reason. Science is constantly trying to better itself, MOST organized religion is very set on it's beliefs and this has scared me away from all forms of religion.

I like your idea, but religion has a very nasty history (even nastier than science). Many ignorant people killing free thinkers :frown: . I think I'll stick to my original idea, but thankyou for enlightening me, your idea will come to mind next time I have shrooms :smile: 

Edited by Zildjian (09/29/03 07:00 AM)

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Re: Death [Re: Zildjian]
    #1962725 -

Glad I could help :wink:

I'm no member of organised religion, so I won't try and convince you to join, but look at it this way.
I'll assume with the nasty history part you are referring to Christianity. Well... before science and philosophy became two different fields of research (if that term is applicable), they were combined into one: philosophy. What is now physics was philisophia naturalis. Theology was also a part of philosophy, so it's easy to see why someone writing a tractate on any scientific subject would also take into account his own views on God.

Science, on the other hand, has its own historical demons. I'm thinking experiments on twins by nazis, the MK Ultra project in the US, the invention of the hydrogen bomb, global heating, oil spills... those can all be ascribed to science, as science dominates human thinking as much today as religion did in the Middle Ages.

>Hell, the reason why I trust science is because it seems more credible than
>religion. That is the only reason. Science is constantly trying to better
>itself, MOST organized religion is very set on it's beliefs and this has scared
>me away from all forms of religion.

That troubles me most about contemporary, centralised, institutional religious systems. I myself am constantly re-educating and redefining my views on myself, the world and God. And that's the way a religious person should go about his quest, imo. Everyone has a different point of view, and so should every person's concept of God differ, we all see one or more facets of the one divinity that is present in every piece of the planet. We shouldn't be looking for the differences between humans or their views, we should seek out the uniting factors.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

Edited by Alan Stone (09/29/03 01:00 PM)

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